Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[Albany,n.y.]

Let's not forget how the WR group fell apart. We had to bring Beasley and Brown back when that could have never been the plan when the season started. 

[John from Riverside]

My main complaint is too many long ball throws
 

But

 

I don’t know how much that actually had to do with Josh Allen’s elbow injury, that we heard kept affecting his short throws

[BADOLBILZ]

17 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

The simple answer is that fans need someone to blame.  It’s not Dorsey’s fault that:

-Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft.

-Beane thought McKenzie or Crowder could replace Beasley

-Beane Can’t draft RB’s

-Josh refuses to play within the offense (which is good and sometimes really bad)

-Josh’s injury hampered the WR screen/quick game

-Davis caught 50% of his targets

Despite all of that the Bills ranked #2 in yards and points. 

We’ll see what Dorsey is made of this year because we’ve upgraded everywhere.  Last year had very little to do with Dorsey.  It’s the NFL, you can’t just scheme players open every play. 

 

 

 

Pretty simple.........Dorsey was more consistently good than Daboll.

 

I totally believe that McDermott and Daboll didn't see eye-to-eye because Daboll had weeks where he just coached with his head totally up his own ass.   His squirrely, inconsistencies in 2021 season cost them home field advantage.    And the 6 point performance against the worst team in the entire NFL,  the then winless Jags, was maybe the worst OC'd game in Bills team history.

 

Dorsey was a first year OC.   He had notably less talent to work with than Daboll had the year before and his QB was injured in the second half of the season.   He did well but anyone who was paying attention knew that first year OC's don't win SB's.    He got shown up by Anarumo just like Daboll got shown up by Spags in 2020.........but if Dorsey had more weapons around his QB the result might have been different.   The Bills D couldn't get off the field against those Bengals weapons.    Beane let the WR corps deteriorate and it cost them dearly.

 

 

[jethro_tull]

me- don't have it. 

others- the temper tantrum? 

[Beck Water]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:25 PM, Albany,n.y. said:

Let's not forget how the WR group fell apart. We had to bring Beasley and Brown back when that could have never been the plan when the season started. 

 

You realize that's literal, not figurative, right?

 

1) Crowder on IR with broken leg

2) Hodgins lost to waivers when he was cut in a CB roster squeeze

3) Kumerow placed on IR for back surgery

 

So, Math. 

The Bills have 6 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Jamison Crowder

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

Jake Kumerow

 

plus, they have Isaiah Hodgins and Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad who they have elevated periodically.

 

Now they have 4 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

 

plus, they have Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad, and when they elevated him it didn't look too good.

 

They just needed bodies that weren't in the infirmary, and the trade deadline was past.  So it was either grab someone off the sofa, or grab someone off another team's practice squad who needs to learn our offense and who may not "have it".  Sofa it was.

 

In hindsight, letting Hodgins go through waivers was a costly mistake on Beane's part.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:47 AM, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

 

This I think is legit.  The Bills evidently had some plays where they stacked Davis and McKenzie and they ran "double option" routes where they looked at the D and chose which route they were gonna run.  Then they had other option routes in the offense.

 

How to say this nicely?  It didn't work, and it kept not working.  I'm not sure who it was on, but they would typically end in the vicinity of each other (also seen with Shakir and other receivers) and I'm sure that is not what they were supposed to do.  Sometimes someone with better football knowledge, like The QB school guy, or Kurt Warner, would diagram and explain which route he thought was wrong, and what should have been run.

 

I was shocked the week before Minnesota when McKenzie was interviewed about Josh and said something to the effect Josh was coaching on the sideline, told him "I didn't realize you were running that route this way, can you run it like this instead?" "Ok, sure".  because there really should have been communication between Dorsey, Josh, and the WR coach (who then communicates to the WR), if it's too hectic for Josh to communicate to the WR directly during or after practice.

 

Anyway, the problem you call out continued all season and was never fixed as far as I can tell.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 8:44 AM, PBF81 said:

So Dorsey bears zero responsibility for running the ball using the RBs less than any other of the 31 teams, and by a country mile?  

Not sure one needs to watch the All-22 to see that clearly. 

 

Do you have a source for this stat, both for 2021 and 2022?

 

Thanks, would love to see that!

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[SoMAn]

I think I can explain.

Most of the complainants are the post-millennials who aren’t content with anything less than instant gratification. 

 

Statistically, the Bills were a top offense, in spite of having a mediocre O-line, a very average TE room, and a single WR that posed much of a threat. 
 

side note: I think they may regret letting Singletary get away.  

[PrimeTime101]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:54 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

how these boards have changed since this poll  

 

[OZBILLS]

He looks like he is a serial killer

[Since1981]

15 minutes ago, OZBILLS said:

 

He looks like he is a serial killer

 

Yeah, he looks like he’d be good with a chainsaw. Only one PROVEN body so far (MS Surface). 

[Don Otreply]

   Again there is no Dorsey hate, it mostly appears to have been a notable dissatisfaction with the former DCs inability to make functional adjustments when they were needed, this put undue pressure on the offense, and it got folk to grumbling about it.

 

   With McDermott taking over the DC responsibilities, and the additions Beane has made to the roster this off season I believe that the root cause of the actual problem has been addressed. 🤞
 

GO BILLS!!!

[Warriorspikes51]

If he is insisting on a more structured offense and not willing to use input from Diggs, that's a concern. 

[Beck Water]

23 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

If he is insisting on a more structured offense and not willing to use input from Diggs, that's a concern. 

 

There are many concerns.  But wanting to move towards a more structured offense with defined WR routes is a Good Thing, IMO.

 

And as for the reports that was Diggs issue which kept him out of Day 1 of mandatory minicamp, please consider:

1) Tim Graham said the one thing he could get out of his sources, was that the problem did NOT involve Dorsey

2) Bakari (Diggs agent) said to one of the insiders that Diggs had been meeting with Henry (WR coach), McDermott, and Beane

3) Allen said it was "not a football issue" but involved "teamwork" and "communication".  It's pretty hard to construe "a more structured offense" as "not a football issue".  Likewise Diggs wanting input into the offense.  

[Beck Water]

32 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

   Again there is no Dorsey hate, it mostly appears to have been a notable dissatisfaction with the former DCs inability to make functional adjustments when they were needed, this put undue pressure on the offense, and it got folk to grumbling about it.

 

   With McDermott taking over the DC responsibilities, and the additions Beane has made to the roster this off season I believe that the root cause of the actual problem has been addressed. 🤞
 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

[damj]

We didn't win the Superbowl.

 

Someone needs to be blamed.

[Don Otreply]

21 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

I feel that it was folk just wanting KD to grow in his craft, it’s the impatience that gets in the way. Your points about the red zone, and play call sequencing are all valid, but I do believe that the words “hate” / “hater” are over used and by definition miss used, bothers me because I was born in 1959, and these damn kids no longer know what the word “gross” actually means, and yes this is a tiny “ get of my lawn “ moment. 😂

[BuffaloBillyG]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

My main issue with the Dorsey hire was simply this. They really didn't even seem to consider anyone other than Dorsey. They brought in 2 guys from the outside and a couple internal candidates. (Dorsey and rumor was Hall got an interview as well). None were experienced. It seemed a bit like the end game was always Dorsey and the other interv were just dog and pony shows, Rooney Rule requirements.

 

If they were going the inexperienced route, fine. If they went that route I was all for giving Kafka a look. I liked the idea of trying to pluck someone that worked under Reid much more than promoting a guy that has studied under the offensive juggernauts of Mike Shula, Ron Rivera and McDermott. 

 

Having said that, I believe Dorsey can still grow into the position and be successful. I can't say any OC would have done much better with the Allen elbow issue and IOL issues. Hopefully, he makes some adjustments, the upgrades to the IOL help and he has figured out what a screen pass is.

[ngbills]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:21 PM, Beck Water said:

 

You realize that's literal, not figurative, right?

 

1) Crowder on IR with broken leg

2) Hodgins lost to waivers when he was cut in a CB roster squeeze

3) Kumerow placed on IR for back surgery

 

So, Math. 

The Bills have 6 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Jamison Crowder

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

Jake Kumerow

 

plus, they have Isaiah Hodgins and Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad who they have elevated periodically.

 

Now they have 4 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

 

plus, they have Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad, and when they elevated him it didn't look too good.

 

They just needed bodies that weren't in the infirmary, and the trade deadline was past.  So it was either grab someone off the sofa, or grab someone off another team's practice squad who needs to learn our offense and who may not "have it".  Sofa it was.

 

In hindsight, letting Hodgins go through waivers was a costly mistake on Beane's part.

Crowder was hurt in oct

Davis was battling injuries since Sept

Kumerow is more ST than WR

Shakir had minimal impact

 

They should have acted much sooner to bring help in the WR. It was lack of action not lack of options. 

[1onemangang7]

if they make him find a spot for Cook then you wont know how good the guy is til he's with someone else.  The Bills go as Allen goes til he doesnt have to carry the run game.  

[hondo in seattle]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:35 PM, SoMAn said:

I think I can explain.

Most of the complainants are the post-millennials who aren’t content with anything less than instant gratification. 

 

Statistically, the Bills were a top offense, in spite of having a mediocre O-line, a very average TE room, and a single WR that posed much of a threat. 
 

side note: I think they may regret letting Singletary get away.  

 

Statistically, we were a top offense in spite of having a BAD o-line...

 

This is true.  When I look at Dorsey's statistical performance and think about the challenges he faced, it seems like he did very well.

And yet when I watched games, I thought he could be so much better which his play-design, play-calling, usage of backs, etc.  

 

And, yeah, I know Josh had a UCL problem.  I still think Dorsey slumped in the 2nd half of the year and became more predictable.