Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[GoBills808]

 

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

feels like you said you understand what you are seeing but didn’t actually breakdown anything you thought he did well beyond a ranking improving. 
 

what do you think he excelled at schematically? 

effective route layering to get favorable deeper matchups

 

thought on a per drive basis tempo was good too, especially in short clock situations

[Peter]

20 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

It seemed as if Dorsey had very little clue on how to successfully blend the running game with the passing game.  Greg Cosell, one of the most knowledgeable people on the NFL game, said that there was a lack of "synchronicity"  between the passing and running game, that they did not support each other. That is very significant criticism!  And I agree completely with that, as the running game seemed almost always to just be an afterthought, something he aught to do some time, rather than an integral part of the game. 

 

BUT the Bills could run the ball very well!  So, that's makes it even more unacceptable, as it was clear his lack of focus on the running game was not because the Bills showed they could not run the ball well.  Their starter, Singletary, averaged 4.6 yards a carry and Cook, 5.7.

 

That lack of a running game is unacceptable for an NFL coordinator, or a college coordinator, and put huge pressure on Allen to do it all himself.  We should thank our lucky stars he was not seriously injured playing in such a one dimensional offense, where he was the also the featured back.

 

Add to this the fact that the short passing and middle of the field passing game were horrible last year.  This part of the game is what had enabled Allen to become the quarterback he has become--and it was all but gone last year. 

 

Dorsey's perplexing offense put extreme pressure on Allen, now operating an offense without a viable running game and without a viable short passing game.  It wasn't Josh Allen who took a step back last year from the extraordinary quarterback we saw in the 2022 playoffs, but his offensive coordinator. Dorsey eliminated two vital dimensions of the offense, of any good NFL offense, and put all of the pressure on Allen, to do it without two vital parts of an NFL offense. 

 

If Dorsey shows the same tendencies this year the Bills will be an also ran again this year. Yes, they may have a very good record again, but their one dimensional offense will leave the high level coaches and defensive coordinators licking their chops again in December--and January.  If so, I believe Dorsey will be fired before Thanksgiving. Or should be. To me, Dorsey was the main reason the Bills got lambasted by Cinci, almost lost to the Dolphins, and did not make it to the Super Bowl. The only reason the Bills got as far as they did is because of their superstar quarterback.

 

Allen may be the most talented NFL quarterback of all time, but you cannot eliminate key components of the offense and expect him to lead the Bills to a championship.

 

 

 

 

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

[Mister Defense]

Just now, Peter said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

 

Look at the ypc of Singletarry and Cook.  The Bills could run the ball well, but did not do so in a way that enhanced their offense or took pressure off of Allen.  Hero Ball returned--because it had to, not because Allen wanted that.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

People have short memories or maybe just weren't paying attention closely

 

Dorsey's offense in his first year was superior to Daboll's

[Pokebball]

I didn't read the previous pages so pardon me repeating anything.

 

Simply put, IMO we didn't have any kind of serious threat in the slot last year. We tried to make up with with deeper routes, more slant and quick outs from the RBs, heck we even tried to run the ball more (which I think was part of the plan from the beginning). Absolutely no threat in the slot and DCs took advantage. Why else would we bring Beas and Brown back mid season?

[Nextmanup]

5 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Why else would we bring Beas and Brown back mid season?

We brought them back because the machine was broken, and they were desperate to fix it with the limited techniques that were available to them at the time.  The fact that those guys played on this team last night is a total indictment of the organization.  Never should have happened, or have needed to happen.

 

It didn't really do anything anyway.

 

 

[billybrew1]

15 hours ago, QCity said:

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

KD did absolutely nothing to help the OL….in the modern game you need a quick passing game to deter pass rushers, we threw the quick passing game away practically. We attack the edges of the field and not the middle. We didn’t use Knox, Shakir, Hodgson or the running backs enough. We called runs into run Ds and threw passes into pass defenses. Always calling slow, long developing plays with little chance of success when you call them over and over. Few  misdirection plays.  There was a reason Daboll called the plays he did, they were all connected into a bigger plan. I didn’t see a method to KD’s madness. The O fell apart. Josh fell apart. Daboll left KD the best player in the world and now he isn’t the running (unless he returns to form.) I think KD could be the first coordinator fired this year, we’ll see…. We should be fine right out of the gate. There should be zero patience for a lack of success. Kromer should be ready to take over..,. I sure hope KD turns it around and makes it but there is no doubt that KD is one of the huge question marks for the Bills this season. We should see a quick and successful passing game right out of the gate. Josh did this before there are zero excuses. We should also have a stout run game and it too should be successful. We should have a very diverse complete offense this year. The only thing we lack is deep speed but we’re not slow by any means either…. IMHO, while we sure could an upgrade at #2 WR, Beane still has done an amazing job (Pegula really) rebuilding this team on both sides of the ball. This opening day 53 man roster should be much stronger than last season’s and we should be able to whoop the jets, imho…

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

I get all of that. 
 

But I think we saw a regression last season with Josh resorting to hero ball too much. 
 

I’m not concerned and I don’t think it ended up making any difference last year.  
 

I’m just saying that I believe people would be a lot happier with Dorsey if Allen took more high-percentage passing opportunities. 

And used the RBs in the pass game.
 Josh needs to use the horizontal game that Daboll preached.
There were so many factors at play here. And now its hindsight.
Josh did look deep pre snap. But often waited for Recs that did not get open and the short intermediate stuff was shut down.
 People would be more happy if Dorsey called a balanced offense. And Defenses would be less so.

 

its reasonable to expect better from the team this season up and coming. Experience and significant improvements on the lines etc. Be able to finish out a season with wrinkles still in the book for playoffs
 

Go Bills
 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

And used the RBs in the pass game.
 Josh needs to use the horizontal game that Daboll preached.
There were so many factors at play here. And now its hindsight.
Josh did look deep pre snap. But often waited for Recs that did not get open and the short intermediate stuff was shut down.
 People would be more happy if Dorsey called a balanced offense. And Defenses would be less so.

 

its reasonable to expect better from the team this season up and coming. Experience and significant improvements on the lines etc. Be able to finish out a season with wrinkles still in the book for playoffs
 

Go Bills
 

Preach, my brutha. 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

sometimes it seemed like backyard football. Go deep and I'll try to hit you. Or just count on Allen to bail us out all the time.

That was my line way earlier in the thread. You are welcome

[3rdand12]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Preach, my brutha. 

Hope remains eternal for Us. 

😉
 

 

[iccrewman112]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

People have short memories or maybe just weren't paying attention closely

 

Dorsey's offense in his first year was superior to Daboll's

Allen was a shell of himself in year 1. One of the factors for Dorsey having a better offense in his first year. 
 

having an experienced top 3 QB vs. Allen as a rookie not quite fair to compare.

[Chaos]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

There's absolutely no reason this Offense should fall to 23rd and then struggle to finish 9th.

Its a great skill to consistently succeed in lowering the benchmarks of success.  Many long careers are based on this simple strategy. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

There is no hate for Dorsey.

 

How can you hate someone who is incompetent?

[bmur66]

But is Ken Dorsey a leader of men?

[Cheektowaga Chad]

My biggest complaint with the offense was lack of adjustment, for example teams started to disregard the run game and have their front four pass rush seemingly every down no matter what; play action/rpo it didn't matter (Miami)

 

Where was the adjustment to that? 

[AZSanta]

The worst thing any coach can be is predictable. Dorsey was predictable and didn't seem to make many adjustments when plays weren't working. There was zero trick plays that I could remember. Not a lot of imagination to his game plans IMO. You have to keep the defense on their toes and Dorsey failed miserably at that. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by AZSanta
wanted to add some more context

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Became predictable and had some real head scratchers, but was his first year, hopefully gets better

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

You know what’s funny?

 

This is likely Dorsey’s final year. He’s an undisputed elite QB coach, and potential to be a perennial top tier NFL OC. If his 2023 is like his 2022, even with the struggles included, he likely gets a HC gig somewhere. 
 

I’d love to revisit this thread this time next year to see what the consensus develops into. 

[klos63]

3 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

That was my line way earlier in the thread. You are welcome

I thought of it last week though.