Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[Einstein's Dog]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

So you’re saying everything with the team has been so good that there’s nothing to criticize? Interesting. Seems to me some posters wont accept any criticism of any current player, coach or FO personnel regardless of what transpires. 

No, I didn't say there was nothing to criticize.  What I was saying was the "blame" is not there to non-Bills fans. 

 

Furthermore, I was saying that your characterization of his hiring as a "mistake" by higher level, looks like a biased attempt to blame McD/Beane for something that hasn't happened yet.  Not only has it not happened, but the plan is right on schedule.

[Beck Water]

10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

 

Statistically, there's no basis for the Dorsey hate.  The Bills had a top 5 offense in yards, yards per play, points, 1st downs.

8th in passing yards, 3rd in passing TDs, 6th in NY/A. 

 

There were flaws with the offense -as you point out, poor redzone offense during much of the season and also poor running game.

 

People who watch film obsessively, like the Cover1 guys, stated that there wasn't as much overlap between Daboll and Dorsey's passing game as one might think there would be.   A number that sticks in my mind as one they threw out, was about 30%, but no promises as to its accuracy. 

 

I also think it's a bit of a challenge to separate out the difference in personnel.  Davis vs. Emmanuel Sanders route running, Beasley vs. McKenzie.  Then, the OL really struggled to pass protect at times, so Knox and Singletary were asked to chip.

 

So really, I got nothing much as far as helping you understand the Dorsey hate.  People perceived the offense as struggling at times, and at times it did, but maybe not as much or for as long as people thought.  

I do think there was a learning curve where at first, we had success from teams that weren't expecting what Dorsey did, then it became predictable and they defended it well, then he adjusted. That happens with every OC though.

I also think people have short memories and forget how Daboll's offense got spanked during the Pittsburgh opener in 2021, got stopped at a number of critical points vs. Tennesee, and was impotent against the Jaguars. 

Was Dorsey perfect out of the gate, no, but objectively he did better than many would have you believe.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[Billy Claude]

41 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

QBs have reads depending on what the defense is doing

 

Allen's reads progress from deep to shallow, meaning if he sees a certain look deep he will throw that before he gets to something underneath

 

it's a function of the offense, not a bug

 

 

This doesn't make sense.   

 

How can every passing play be designed to go deep to shallow?   If that was the case, the only short passes would be flares to the running back.   I have to assume some plays are designed to be read deep to shallow and some shallow to deep, or more likely, Allen has a choice based on the defensive alignment.

 

There is something seriously wrong with the game plan if all  passing plays are designed to be read deep to shallow.  

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Billy Claude

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

The simple answer is that fans need someone to blame.  It’s not Dorsey’s fault that:

-Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft.

-Beane thought McKenzie or Crowder could replace Beasley

-Beane Can’t draft RB’s

-Josh refuses to play within the offense (which is good and sometimes really bad)

-Josh’s injury hampered the WR screen/quick game

-Davis caught 50% of his targets

Despite all of that the Bills ranked #2 in yards and points. 

We’ll see what Dorsey is made of this year because we’ve upgraded everywhere.  Last year had very little to do with Dorsey.  It’s the NFL, you can’t just scheme players open every play. 

this is just wrong lmao.

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I’ll add that the blame for hiring a rookie OC lands at the feet of two of the three people that most TBD posters refuse to criticize. So it’s easier to just blame Dorsey rather than consider that mistakes are being made at a higher level.

 

That's pretty "meta" don't you think?  Who are these two people?  I read truckloads of criticism of McDermott and of Beane around here, so you can't mean them.

 

It also implies that you feel hiring Dorsey was a mistake.  There may have been a better offensive signal caller on the market, but there aren't any guarantees they would have produced a top-5 offense that never stalled out with the same player personnel in their first year, either.

 

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

As for Dorsey, he probably has a bright future. He’s not there yet, but he did not do poorly for a rookie OC. I do question the relationship with Allen though. Mainly it is whether it allows for him to effectively coach Allen hard when needed. I should note that I see this issue with McDermott as well. He hasn’t reined in Allen when warranted either so why would Dorsey feel like he could do it?

 

I have had similar questions.  I felt that Daboll and Allen built a relationship based on love, like the famous joke about the "reliable mule trained with loving kindness" where Daboll had to hit Allen with a board a few times as a rookie and young player to "get his attention".  Now that Allen is "the Franchise", I'm not sure Dorsey has the same clout or the same ability to rein Allen in.  McDermott sounded really determined to do so in a couple of off-season pressers, but I'm not sure how that will play out.

[Gugny]

44 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

QBs have reads depending on what the defense is doing

 

Allen's reads progress from deep to shallow, meaning if he sees a certain look deep he will throw that before he gets to something underneath

 

it's a function of the offense, not a bug

 

When I said I wasn't an expert, I didn't mean that I was blind and illiterate.

 

It's a bug when Josh is unnecessarily ignoring open receivers so he can try to wait for something else to open further downfield.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Gugny said:

 

When I said I wasn't an expert, I didn't mean that I was blind and illiterate.

 

It's a bug when Josh is unnecessarily ignoring open receivers so he can try to wait for something else to open further downfield.

How often do you think that happens tho

 

The 50yarder to Diggs in the Miami playoff game where we scored the next play was an example...Davis is coming open underneath but the read is the deep shot because safety rotates down

 

Same game but later on, same concept to Shakir on big 3rd down. Safety comes down on Diggs so the read is over the top to Shakir running 1v1...You can call it unnecessary but it's not just freelancing out there, he has rules in the offense like everyone else

[Nihilarian]

Dunno anything about the "hate" for the guy as he was an NFL rookie OC. Stats wise the Buffalo offense was #2 overall in points, and yards which equal the best season Brian Daboll had as the Buffalo OC. 

 

Clearly, the Buffalo offensive line took a big step back in 2022. In that Miami playoff game, the Phin's strategy was to put heavy pressure on QB Josh Allen all day and it worked to a degree. The Bengals were also able to get in Allen's face quite a bit in that playoff game and as a result of that playoff loss at home in Buffalo, so many Bills fans were breaking out the pitchforks. 

 

The Buffalo Bill's offense and the passing game went out the window on that snowy January 22 playoff day. The Bengals were able to run the ball all day with 34 rushes for 172 yards, 1 TD. Buffalo on the other hand went 19 rushes for 64 yards. When the passing game falters the team needs to be able to run the ball effectively. 

 

That playoff game basically showed why the Bills needed better run defense and a better-rushing offense.  That's exactly what made those 90's Bills so special in the snow and cold with Thurman Thomas running it.

 

Anyway, 

 

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-offense-josh-allen-what-went-wrong/

 

"*The Bills’ offense lacked middle-of-the-field production in the passing game in 2022, which affected the team’s performance.

*Josh Allen had a tendency to avoid throwing over the middle of the field due to a lack of trust in his weapons.

*The lack of consistency in the slot receiver position affected the Bills’ ability to open up avenues for the rest of the offense.

*Data from interceptions and drops shows that Josh Allen was much more comfortable throwing to the boundaries rather than over the middle of the field.

*We analyze heat maps of Stefon Diggs’ production to show the change in the Bills’ passing game in the latter half of the season, as they began to throw more toward the numbers and boundaries.

*Consistent slot receivers, like Cole Beasley, provide a “crutch” for the offense and allow for hot routes and site adjustments in the middle of the field, which are crucial for making plays."

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

How often do you think that happens tho

 

The 50yarder to Diggs in the Miami playoff game where we scored the next play was an example...Davis is coming open underneath but the read is the deep shot because safety rotates down

 

Same game but later on, same concept to Shakir on big 3rd down. Safety comes down on Diggs so the read is over the top to Shakir running 1v1...You can call it unnecessary but it's not just freelancing out there, he has rules in the offense like everyone else

I get all of that. 
 

But I think we saw a regression last season with Josh resorting to hero ball too much. 
 

I’m not concerned and I don’t think it ended up making any difference last year.  
 

I’m just saying that I believe people would be a lot happier with Dorsey if Allen took more high-percentage passing opportunities. 

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

21 minutes ago, FireChans said:

this is just wrong lmao.

We had exactly one starter in the two deep that he drafted last year and he was one of the worst in the league. So tell me, who has he drafted high, prior to this year because that’s what we’re talking about, developed and place in the two deep.  I’ll wait

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, Gugny said:

I get all of that. 
 

But I think we saw a regression last season with Josh resorting to hero ball too much. 
 

I’m not concerned and I don’t think it ended up making any difference last year.  
 

I’m just saying that I believe people would be a lot happier with Dorsey if Allen took more high-percentage passing opportunities. 

Yep I understand what you're saying.

 

I think Dorsey is very much leaning into the high variance which can be frustrating for the people looking for the more traditional passing attack. Their whole 'smart not conservative' catchphrase you know...I think Dorsey is trying to get ahead of the curve by utilizing to his fullest extend a QB who can literally put the ball anywhere on the field. Could they throttle it down a bit by putting a few more conservative playcalls per drive in there, I think yes and they likely will as Dorsey gets a better feel for gameflow. But I don't see the overall approach to the pass game changing dramatically and imo it is the right way to go. Just need slightly better personnel esp along the oline.

[wjag]

Certainly Josh's PCL had a big impact on the season.  The lack of creativity on play calls is what stood out to me.  Watching KC, they had a new wrinkle play almost every week.  The Bills offense was brute force effective because teams elected to give up Josh's rushing yards rather than Stef's receiving yards. They need to be able to scheme Stef open.  And Josh/Stef needs to occasionally beat double coverage when they don't.  

 

Now having said all of that, going into last season, I really convinced myself that Kromer was going to be the difference maker.  The fact that the o-line was breached more times than the southern border, was really the root cause for a lot of the "ills" in the offense.  A second or two more of pocket time would likely have allowed Josh to wait for Stef to beat double coverage.   

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by wjag

[Bad Things]

Why the Dorsey hate?

Simple!

 

Upstate/Western New Yorkers are the biggest complainers in the world.  It's truly turned into part of the culture up there.

Every time I visit family or friends up there, I'm shocked by it.

 

The strange thing is that complaining has become almost a "positive" thing there, where people seem to truly enjoy complaining.

 

Well, that's my theory at least.

[Green Lightning]

11 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

That's because of their stunning lack of talent, depth and multiple Injuries. Kromer can't play guard ot RT.

[stevestojan]

I learned it by watching you! 

[Green Lightning]

As for Dorsey, it's not hate, it's exasperation at his lack of game situational awareness. Key drives to ice a game and he calls up a 30 yard bomb on third and short. Sometimes you just need to move the chains and he sucked at it. Maybe he'll learn this year.

[AuntieEm]

9 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I don't have anything against Dorsey. I think he did a fine job as a ROOKIE play caller. And that's also my issue. It's not with him as much as it is that I believe he was the wrong hire.

 

I much rather would have had them at the very least interview some guys with more experience. Instead we got a basic dog and pony show where they interviewed a couple other just as inexperienced guys before handing the job to Ken. It's like they didn't even try because that was who Allen wanted. 

 

  Yes, imo it comes down to the fact that these guys give Josh way too much say and while I think he does deserve some input I have felt they defer to his preferences too much.  Doesn't matter how good a qb is it still takes a whole team effort to earn a Lombardi and that means that they need to cater less to Josh and what he wants and more what's best for the entire team.  Josh needs to still add to his game if he wants to really have a chance to emulate Qbs he looks up to  like Brsdy and Rodgers, both of whom also are admittedly fans of Allen's game.  He can play a smarter game like Brady played.  He can become more deadly accurate by adding in the screens and short dump offs and with our weapons the dump offs will more often than not have alot of open space for YAC.   The more Josh wants input into the OC and plays that can be called  also adds more of the accountability on whatever results the offense produces to be on Josh.   So until the playcalling buck stops at Dorsey any criticism by me will follow thru onto all that have input on the playcalls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

Statistically, there's no basis for the Dorsey hate.  The Bills had a top 5 offense in yards, yards per play, points, 1st downs.

8th in passing yards, 3rd in passing TDs, 6th in NY/A. 

 

There were flaws with the offense -as you point out, poor redzone offense during much of the season and also poor running game.

 

People who watch film obsessively, like the Cover1 guys, stated that there wasn't as much overlap between Daboll and Dorsey's passing game as one might think there would be.   A number that sticks in my mind as one they threw out, was about 30%, but no promises as to its accuracy. 

 

I also think it's a bit of a challenge to separate out the difference in personnel.  Davis vs. Emmanuel Sanders route running, Beasley vs. McKenzie.  Then, the OL really struggled to pass protect at times, so Knox and Singletary were asked to chip.

 

So really, I got nothing much as far as helping you understand the Dorsey hate.  People perceived the offense as struggling at times, and at times it did, but maybe not as much or for as long as people thought.  

I do think there was a learning curve where at first, we had success from teams that weren't expecting what Dorsey did, then it became predictable and they defended it well, then he adjusted. That happens with every OC though.

I also think people have short memories and forget how Daboll's offense got spanked during the Pittsburgh opener in 2021, got stopped at a number of critical points vs. Tennesee, and was impotent against the Jaguars. 

Was Dorsey perfect out of the gate, no, but objectively he did better than many would have you believe.

I prefer tp blame my extreme dislike of Ken Dorsey on ... inexperience. And inability to manage Josh 
Stats be damned  cuz they dont win games.
 Also i considered a small disconnect with he and Kromer as to how to manage the season and what changes might be needed .
The pass game sucked , even though statistically over al it seemed to be okay.
 

Lets us pray Ken learns to balance all his weapons and use them appropriately from week to week.

We all grow into our roles. And I Expect him to do the same with what all he has surrounding him in the Coaches Rooms !

 Lots of Exp in there: )

 

But last year I loathed him.

8 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

 

  Yes, imo it comes down to the fact that these guys give Josh way too much say and while I think he does deserve some input I have felt they defer to his preferences too much.  Doesn't matter how good a qb is it still takes a whole team effort to earn a Lombardi and that means that they need to cater less to Josh and what he wants and more what's best for the entire team.  Josh needs to still add to his game if he wants to really have a chance to emulate Qbs he looks up to  like Brsdy and Rodgers, both of whom also are admittedly fans of Allen's game.  He can play a smarter game like Brady played.  He can become more deadly accurate by adding in the screens and short dump offs and with our weapons the dump offs will more often than not have alot of open space for YAC.   The more Josh wants input into the OC and plays that can be called  also adds more of the accountability on whatever results the offense produces to be on Josh.   So until the playcalling buck stops at Dorsey any criticism by me will follow thru onto all that have input on the playcalls.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Appeared so with Josh but not sure that is true.

Hyped up Josh ? Sometimes , sure 

[Augie]

I think much of the hate is a misguided attempt to stand up for the rights of tablets everywhere. Relax, there are more where that came from.  😋

 

IMO the stats of where our offense ranked (pretty darn well in general) did not match up with how I felt watching them. Yep, they moved the ball and scored a bunch of points, but they were frustrating to watch at times. Somehow, we did pretty well despite my frequent screaming at the TV.  🤷‍♂️

 

I’ll keep it simple and just hope we have a consistent running game this year, while involving Josh in it less until the playoffs. I also hope that Josh’s elbow was in fact related to his forcing the ball deep. I’m a bit skeptical. Was that physical? Was it the game plan? Or was he just unwilling to check down?

 

I want everyone on the same page across the board. That is true for the QB and OC, as well as the GM and the coaches in selecting who we would target as players. It seemed odd that we would get guys, but then not use them the way we expected.

 

After typing all that, I still like our current roster and have high hoped going forward. In fact, I’m glad we are not getting all the hype we got last year. Go ahead and doubt the Bills, it will be that much better when they run deep in the playoffs!  

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

We had exactly one starter in the two deep that he drafted last year and he was one of the worst in the league. So tell me, who has he drafted high, prior to this year because that’s what we’re talking about, developed and place in the two deep.  I’ll wait

OL drafted by McDermott/Beane:

 

Dawkins - 2nd

Teller - 5th

Ford - 2nd

Brown - 3rd

Doyle - 5th

Anderson - 7th

Tenuta - 6th

Torence - 2nd

Broeker - 7th

 

You can pretend "Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft," but you'd continue to be wrong lmao.

Edited June 14, 2023 by FireChans