Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[machine gun kelly]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think there are two legit criticisms of Dorsey last year:

 

1. Under utilisation of Dawson Knox (which they definitely tried to address down the stretch and that needs to continue in year 2);

2. Predictability, especially mid season. Our offense hummed early, partly because it was pretty simple, but teams caught on a bit and Dorsey seemed to struggle to adjust a bit. I think they found a way late in the year but it was a bit disjointed. I think they eventually managed to find a way to move the ball but it never felt as coherent. 

 

But I'd give him a 7/10 as a first year OC. 

 

 

Id agree this was a 1st year OC and always looks easy until you sit in the box.  I remember when I went from rep to mgr I had a few months of adjustment.  The problem for some is you go from doing to coaching and it’s an art form.

 

Im confident Dorsey will find his way this year especially because he has more variable options.  He has a viable 12, 21, and as always the 11 personnel options as he has the horses.  He has the guys to run more or less based on opponent.

 

We also have very different RB’s now who can bang and pass catch.  Davis has a healed ankle.  A TE who was underutilized, and another as the TE 1st rd. pick.  I’m guessing Knox’s head was pretty messed up on his brothers sudden death.  He was a college kid.  That would be hard on anyone.  I’m not making excuses, just showing some empathy.

 

 

[I'm Spartacus]

Let's give Dorsey a chance. Do you want to bring back Alex Van Pelt?

[hondo in seattle]

I didn't buy into the Super Bowl hype last offseason.  One of my biggest concerns was our OL.  So, at the beginning of the year, I thought Dorsey was a genius when I saw our offense moving the ball at will despite a weak OL.

 

But there were games after the bye when I wondered what the hell Dorsey was doing.  He didn't seem to be rolling with what was working.  He didn't seem to be attacking the opponent's weakness.  He almost seemed to be calling plays randomly. 

 

Also, we heard a couple of times late last year from opposing players that our O was predictable.  Defenses seemed to have figured Dorsey out.     

 

One other thing that bugged me was his hissy fit in the box - it made me wonder if he had the emotional maturity to be a leader.  

 

I don't hate Dorsey, but I do wonder if he's the right guy to lead this offensive roster to its full potential.  Hopefully, like other young OCs before him, he gets better in Year #2.  

 

 

[JESSEFEFFER]

Easier to blame the OC than the QB.  We do not know the coaching dynamic between them but it can't be easy coaching a QB that invites and tries to thrive in offensive chaos.  Fans will give Josh credit when it works and blame Ken when it doesn't.

[Don Otreply]

There is no KD hate, there is only wanting KD to be better at his craft. 

[bigduke6]

to go 13-3 with a first year offensive coordinator,  and a defensive HC who obviously doesnt help much with the offense,  is no small thing, especially taking into account  all the extra stuff that went on last season.    Bills O started out fast,  i imagine with a large dose of what they knew from the previous seasons O helping.   Dorsey gets more comfortable,  starts to add more of himself into the offense as time goes on,   injuries happen,  O becomes limited,  then stagnate.  still managed 13 wins.   imma give Dorsey some rope.  lets see what happens.

 

the hate,  whether its for a player, coach,  whatever,  is just something people do to try and cope with perceived failure of something theyre invested in.  somebody has to be the fall guy.  when in reality,  if you look at things objectively, with a level head,  and look at both the positives and negatives of a situation,  you can make a more informed decision or opinion on something, and not look like a fool.    lashing out emotionally rarely ever leads to a positive ending.

 

also,  keep in mind,  eventually defenses/coaches get enough tape on a new coordinator,  what his tendencies are,  they adjust.   if the coordinator cant adjust likewise,  well,  not going to be as easy.   happens with players also.   i wonder if Dorsey just didnt adjust enough,  or were his hands tied by personnel and injuries.  Josh's UCL injury was a bigger deal then was let on.  defenses knew it and adjusted their gameplans.  you could see it.

Edited June 14, 2023 by bigduke6

[Ethan in Cleveland]

27 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I didn't buy into the Super Bowl hype last offseason.  One of my biggest concerns was our OL.  So, at the beginning of the year, I thought Dorsey was a genius when I saw our offense moving the ball at will despite a weak OL.

 

But there were games after the bye when I wondered what the hell Dorsey was doing.  He didn't seem to be rolling with what was working.  He didn't seem to be attacking the opponent's weakness.  He almost seemed to be calling plays randomly. 

 

Also, we heard a couple of times late last year from opposing players that our O was predictable.  Defenses seemed to have figured Dorsey out.     

 

One other thing that bugged me was his hissy fit in the box - it made me wonder if he had the emotional maturity to be a leader.  

 

I don't hate Dorsey, but I do wonder if he's the right guy to lead this offensive roster to its full potential.  Hopefully, like other young OCs before him, he gets better in Year #2.  

 

 

Not buy into the hype last year? Did you forsee all the injuries and a guy dying on the field? Did you post your concerns about the OL before the season started? If so kudos to you. The OL was quite good the last 6 games or so and playoffs of 2021. That coincided with Bates starting at G and Dawson recovering from COVID #2. 

I agree the reaction to signing Saffold was mixed on here. But in general most agreed with matching Bates contract offer. 

 

 

All that said, I had the same thought after his little hissy fit in the box too. 

[ngbills]

High expectations. Inconsistency. Nothing looked easy. Other teams commented that it was predictable. The eye test. You have a top 3 QB that can run and pass it would be criminal to not have a top 10 offense. I dont think it takes even a college level OC to do that. The difference is can you scheme when it matters. Can you adjust when needed. The answer so far is no. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, ngbills said:

High expectations. Inconsistency. Nothing looked easy. Other teams commented that it was predictable. The eye test. You have a top 3 QB that can run and pass it would be criminal to not have a top 10 offense. I dont think it takes even a college level OC to do that. The difference is can you scheme when it matters. Can you adjust when needed. The answer so far is no. 

They were a top2 offense lol

[ngbills]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

They were a top2 offense lol

That looked completely lost in a playoff game.

[Einstein's Dog]

5 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I’ll add that the blame for hiring a rookie OC lands at the feet of two of the three people that most TBD posters refuse to criticize. So it’s easier to just blame Dorsey rather than consider that mistakes are being made at a higher level.

 

What "blame"? By almost all metrics, the Bills offense did well.  Generally the criticisms are coming from Bills fans who micromanage the game from their sofas.  Compared to the rest of the league the Bills offense was well above average, top 3 even.

 

And what 'mistake"?  The higher level people were looking for continuity to have a contender in 2022 and a developing OC for the future.  Nothing to apologize for there, they are right on track so far.

 

Often times it looks like to me, that people like to use manufactured blame on Dorsey as a way to criticize upper management (who they were looking to find fault with).

[Carmel Corn]

IMHO - he didn't have the resume and experience to be named the OC.  Sure we may have lost him if he didn't get the job, but I question his qualifications.  A pet peeve of mine is the lack of screen plays in the playcalling.

[Nextmanup]

24 minutes ago, ngbills said:

High expectations. Inconsistency. Nothing looked easy. Other teams commented that it was predictable. The eye test. You have a top 3 QB that can run and pass it would be criminal to not have a top 10 offense. I dont think it takes even a college level OC to do that. The difference is can you scheme when it matters. Can you adjust when needed. The answer so far is no. 

One thing to consider: last year, our offense was completely devoid of any identity whatsoever that made you say "that's Bills football."

 

That falls directly at the feet of the offensive coordinator.

 

Secondly, when was the last time, under Dorsey, you saw this team line up in the same offensive set, and then run three completely different plays out of it?  He doesn't scheme plays on that level; he's a beginner and schemes like a beginner.  

 

Why not hire an expert?

 

 

 

[Gugny]

My feeling is that Josh Allen makes Dorsey look good at times … and he makes him look bad at times. 

 

I am no expert. Never claimed to be and don’t even want to be. 
 

But from the comfort of my couch, what I see is a QB who has no respect for his OC and would rather stretch plays out and look for the bombs, than to take what’s given to him and move the chains. 
 

I’m not bashing Allen. I love the guy. But there are proper times for him to go into Hero Mode and he did it too much last season. 
 

My biggest knock on Dorsey was his inexplicable omission of Hines in the offense. 
 

But I don’t know if that’s a Dorsey call or a McDermott call. 
 

Either way, not using Hines was .. for lack of a better term .. stupid. 
 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Gugny

[hondo in seattle]

40 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Not buy into the hype last year? Did you forsee all the injuries and a guy dying on the field? Did you post your concerns about the OL before the season started? If so kudos to you. The OL was quite good the last 6 games or so and playoffs of 2021. That coincided with Bates starting at G and Dawson recovering from COVID #2. 

I agree the reaction to signing Saffold was mixed on here. But in general most agreed with matching Bates contract offer. 

 

 

All that said, I had the same thought after his little hissy fit in the box too. 

 

No, I absolutely did not foresee the injuries or the death on the field.  But, yeah, I did post my concerns about the OL before the season. 

 

While I didn't buy the hype during the offseason, I was starting to buy into it during the season.  We looked really dominant for a while.   If I recall correctly, at one point about a quarter through the season, both our O and D were ranked #1 in the league.  I was jazzed.   And then, one by one, things started going wrong - though we still won a lot of games. 

 

It's weird.  My memory of the 2nd half of the season is a lot drearier than the W-L record or point-differential says it was.  But we looked off - thanks in part to the mounting injuries.   But I also believe Dorsey could have been better.  

[90sBills]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

When team goals aren’t met it’s easier for fans to blame the OC than the all-world qb. 

[CNYfan]

I did not like the route/pattern designs.  I am no expert, but to me it seemed that often there would be 2, and sometimes 3, Bills receivers downfield within a few yards of each other.   Very poor "spacing".   This resulted in a party of defenders also being in the area and that made for incompletions.  

 

There were other things wrong, terrible o-line play e.g., but that is one area in which I was quite disappointed and felt was the OC's fault.  

[ngbills]

9 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

One thing to consider: last year, our offense was completely devoid of any identity whatsoever that made you say "that's Bills football."

 

That falls directly at the feet of the offensive coordinator.

 

Secondly, when was the last time, under Dorsey, you saw this team line up in the same offensive set, and then run three completely different plays out of it?  He doesn't scheme plays on that level; he's a beginner and schemes like a beginner.  

 

Why not hire an expert?

 

 

 

Which does not show up in "we were the #2 Offense". Maybe with a better OC we are the #1 offense by a landslide. Or we are #4 offense but can gameplan to win in the playoffs. Funny how so many say this team is better with Frazier gone...what about but we had the #2 Defense? Oh but it was obvious our defense sucked when it mattered blah blah blah. If Dorsey got fired it would be the same story - it was so obvious he sucked. 

[GoBills808]

16 minutes ago, Gugny said:

My feeling is that Josh Allen makes Dorsey look good at times … and he makes him look bad at times. 

 

I am no expert. Never claimed to be and don’t even want to be. 
 

But from the comfort of my couch, what I see is a QB who has no respect for his OC and would rather stretch plays out and look for the bombs, than to take what’s given to him and move the chains. 
 

I’m not bashing Allen. I love the guy. But there are proper times for him to go into Hero Mode and he did it too much last season. 
 

My biggest knock on Dorsey was his inexplicable omission of Hines in the offense. 
 

But I don’t know if that’s a Dorsey call or a McDermott call. 
 

Either way, not using Hines was .. for lack of a better term .. stupid. 
 

 

QBs have reads depending on what the defense is doing

 

Allen's reads progress from deep to shallow, meaning if he sees a certain look deep he will throw that before he gets to something underneath

 

it's a function of the offense, not a bug

[BarleyNY]

30 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

What "blame"? By almost all metrics, the Bills offense did well.  Generally the criticisms are coming from Bills fans who micromanage the game from their sofas.  Compared to the rest of the league the Bills offense was well above average, top 3 even.

 

And what 'mistake"?  The higher level people were looking for continuity to have a contender in 2022 and a developing OC for the future.  Nothing to apologize for there, they are right on track so far.

 

Often times it looks like to me, that people like to use manufactured blame on Dorsey as a way to criticize upper management (who they were looking to find fault with).

 

So you’re saying everything with the team has been so good that there’s nothing to criticize? Interesting. Seems to me some posters wont accept any criticism of any current player, coach or FO personnel regardless of what transpires.