Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[newcam2012]

18 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Decent list.

 

The bold is probably my biggest issue with Dorsey.

 

The Offense was just so janky last year. There was a glaring lack of cohesiveness and just basic football 101 when it was needed most.

 

Way too often the Bills would be up 10-13 points with like 4-5min left. Not a huge, comfortable lead, but enough if you call one more drive correctly. And instead of draining the clock, it was deep shot, deep shot, sack, punt, and give the ball back with 4:30 left, now "only" up 10-13 points and set the other team up perfectly to comeback.

 

He just didnt seem to sense or be able to control the rhythm of the game.

 

I feel his personality and core energy is just to frenetic to effectively lead our guys, especially Josh who can quickly become "sugar rush Josh".

 

All that said, I do believe it can be improved with experience and hope/expect to see some improvements this year. But if they are still all over the map then it's time to move on. We're wasting too much time.

Really good insight here. Thanks.

[GunnerBill]

I think there are two legit criticisms of Dorsey last year:

 

1. Under utilisation of Dawson Knox (which they definitely tried to address down the stretch and that needs to continue in year 2);

2. Predictability, especially mid season. Our offense hummed early, partly because it was pretty simple, but teams caught on a bit and Dorsey seemed to struggle to adjust a bit. I think they found a way late in the year but it was a bit disjointed. I think they eventually managed to find a way to move the ball but it never felt as coherent. 

 

But I'd give him a 7/10 as a first year OC. 

 

 

[PBF81]

31 minutes ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

Could be but unless you reviewed the all 22 film for every game and actually understand modern offensive football it’s purely conjecture. 
What’s not is any of the points that I brought up including the #2 offense in football.  

 

So Dorsey bears zero responsibility for running the ball using the RBs less than any other of the 31 teams, and by a country mile?  

 

Not sure one needs to watch the All-22 to see that clearly.  

 

 

[Fleezoid]

Like many here, seemed to lack any identity, or even creativity. Hard to put a finger on any one thing.

 

However, with a year under his belt, and hopefully extensively involved in picking new players via draft/free agency, his offense will take on a super strong identity. It would be nice if the pundits start saying stuff like, 'Dorsey's offense does this well' or 'This Dorsey offense is gonna keep some defensive coordinators up at night'. Then we'll know he's got something going. 

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

10 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

So Dorsey bears zero responsibility for running the ball using the RBs less than any other of the 31 teams, and by a country mile?  

 

Not sure one needs to watch the All-22 to see that clearly.  

 

 

Never said he doesn’t deserve any.  Every single offensive player and coach on the team played a part.  
There wasn’t much of a difference in RB utilization from the previous 3 years and we were 7th in the league in rushing.  Our RBs were  below average last year.  One has no speed and the other is afraid of contact and isn’t good in pass pro (hopefully that changes though I have my doubts).  Why would you want to put the ball in your worst offensive players hands and take it out of Josh’s?  
Do we have the offensive line to sustain the run game without the constant threat of the pass? Not last year.  

Do we have the running backs to pound the ball? Not last year. 
I think that’ll change this year because we more versatility on offense and a true all around RB like Harris (if he stays healthy) a better OL and a true deep ball threat in Harty who will keep those safeties in cover 2 far away from the LOS.  

Again, blaming Dorsey for last year is overlooking the obvious. #2 offense in yards scoring  and YPP - by any objective measure that is a success. If he struggles to diversify the O this year and don’t perform in big spots then move on because there will be no excuse. 

[PBF81]

30 minutes ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

Never said he doesn’t deserve any.  Every single offensive player and coach on the team played a part.  
There wasn’t much of a difference in RB utilization from the previous 3 years and we were 7th in the league in rushing.  Our RBs were  below average last year.  One has no speed and the other is afraid of contact and isn’t good in pass pro (hopefully that changes though I have my doubts).  Why would you want to put the ball in your worst offensive players hands and take it out of Josh’s?  
Do we have the offensive line to sustain the run game without the constant threat of the pass? Not last year.  

Do we have the running backs to pound the ball? Not last year. 
I think that’ll change this year because we more versatility on offense and a true all around RB like Harris (if he stays healthy) a better OL and a true deep ball threat in Harty who will keep those safeties in cover 2 far away from the LOS.  

Again, blaming Dorsey for last year is overlooking the obvious. #2 offense in yards scoring  and YPP - by any objective measure that is a success. If he struggles to diversify the O this year and don’t perform in big spots then move on because there will be no excuse. 

 

That's almost entirely narrative stuff and  you leapfrogged the primary point of my statement however.  

 

To start, Singletary averaged 4.6 YPC which was ahead of RBs Henry, Barkley, and Dalvin Cook who came it a 4.4.  The difference?   Henry and Barkley each had notably more carries than both Singletary & Cook combined.  D. Cook was only 2 carries fewer than both of them combined.  AKA had Singletary gotten that many carries he'd have had more yards at his YPC.  

 

I'll add some numbers otherwise.  

 

Take out Allen's rushing contributions and we rank DFL in rushing.  Without Allen, we had 306 carries.  The 31st ranked team had 386, 26% more.  That was the 31st ranked rushing team.  Even if you remove Brady's 29 carries (for -1 Yard, LOL) it's still miles more, and again, that was the DFL rushing team otherwise in both carries and yards.  

 

Take out Allen's yardage, and we finish 31st in the league in rushing.  

 

Yet, Singletary and Cook, even without Allen, ranked 3rd in the league.  There's a disparity there and one that doesn't line up with the narrative.  

 

Either way, running your RBs only 19 times/game is clearly directly related to the OC.  Anything else is spin.  And for a team for which one of the primary complaints was that Allen runs the ball too much, that is reprehensible for the OC.   

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by PBF81

[Donuts and Doritos]

Dissatisfied not hated. As Greg Cossell pointed out from film study, he did not scheme receivers open, no picks or rubs, it was line up 1 on 1 & beat your guy. This doesn't help Diggs get off double teams, & the other receivers couldn't consistently win. Didn't take pressure off Josh w/ easy throws it was a lot of 20 yard chucks. For example the infamous 2nd & 3 pass 30 yards deep to Davis incomplete, line up & do the exact same play with the same results & a punt. Several analysts said the schemes were elementary not very exotic & you could see it in the field.

 

Multiple receivers in the same area happened a lot, if it was player error he didn't fix it, but the film & consistency sure made it looked like part of the plan.

 

There also seemed to be a disconnect between weapons Beane got & Dorsey's usage of them. Hynes & Shakir barely got used, Knox resigned & his targets went down. The result was it was all on Josh.

 

& He never adjusted. Yes there were injuries & poor performances which absolutely contributed, it's not all on Dorsey by any means, but the schemes didn't adjust to help the players with any of that to the degree that it should have. & It's showed.

 

In the playoffs they put up 10 pts against Cincinnati, 10; & needed 2 kick returns to beat the Pats; & looked sloppy against the Phins (7 sacks, 3 ints & a fumble). 

 

Now, they looked off the season before under Daboll at points too, but Daboll adjusted & after the Tampa game figured out the fix, then the O was lights out in the playoffs against NE & KC. Hopefully it's a first year learning curve & he comes back improved & ready. & Yes the players need to improve & stay healthy too. So it's not hate, it's trying to have a realistic assessment of strengths & weaknesses.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Donuts and Doritos

[BillsVet]

6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

 

This discussion is not a "love" or "hate" one.  People who come onto message boards describing constructive criticism as "hate" typically cannot apply reason to a situation.  

 

1 hour ago, ddaryl said:

I think the fallings of last years offense is a multi headed Hydra

Rookie OC didn't have adjustments ready to go

Josh didn't see open receivers plenty of times and tried to thread the long ball too often

OL was horribly inconsistent 

 

FA and drafted rookies receivers/RBs had very little impact

 

This is more like it.  Rookie OC, less than adequate overall offensive investment, inability to build a decent OL with a clear blocking scheme, HC who still struggles with the offensive side of the ball (both personnel and scheme) along with a QB who tries to do too much sometimes and misses certain throws.  It's a combination of many causes why they struggled late last season.

 

Watching the SC Final last night, fans are quick to blame players for poor play and are less likely to view in-game and overall team strategy as a contributing problem.  And this is primarily because most fans have little understanding of player responsibilities in that designated scheme.  And historically the least appreciated is the transactions at the GM level, which when called into question, prompt some to go apoplectic.  For example, when Beane complains about not having cap room, but the myriad of bad contracts he himself handed out in preceding years isn't pointed to.  

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

3 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

That's almost entirely narrative stuff and  you leapfrogged the primary point of my statement however.  

 

To start, Singletary averaged 4.6 YPC which was ahead of RBs Henry, Barkley, and Dalvin Cook who came it a 4.4.  The difference?   Henry and Barkley each had notably more carries than both Singletary & Cook combined.  D. Cook was only 2 carries fewer than both of them combined.  AKA had Singletary gotten that many carries he'd have had more yards at his YPC.  

 

I'll add some numbers otherwise.  

 

Take out Allen's rushing contributions and we rank DFL in rushing.  Without Allen, we had 306 carries.  The 31st ranked team had 386, 26% more.  That was the 31st ranked rushing team.  Even if you remove Brady's 29 carries (for -1 Yard, LOL) it's still miles more, and again, that was the DFL rushing team otherwise in both carries and yards.  

 

Take out Allen's yardage, and we finish 31st in the league in rushing.  

 

Yet, Singletary and Cook, even without Allen, ranked 3rd in the league.  There's a disparity there and one that doesn't line up with the narrative.  

 

Either way, running your RBs only 19 times/game is clearly directly related to the OC.  Anything else is spin.  And for a team for which one of the primary complaints was that Allen runs the ball too much, that is reprehensible for the OC.   

 

 

So wait a second. You think Singletary or Cook are capable of the load those 3 RBs can handle?  Holy sh!t That is laughable.  Cook and Singletary aren’t  on the same planet as Cook, Henry and Barkley.  
Our RBs have benefited greatly from light boxes which Henry and Barkley never see. 
Your points about Allen being too involved are less about designed runs and more about Josh’s ridiculous abaility as probably the best Dual threat in the history of the NFL. Again, do you want to take the ball out of his hands and give it to 2 average RBs? Cook is incapable of being a true #1 - not even in high school was he that guy and we all know Singletary’s short comings and so does the rest of the NFL because they never respected him enough to put a safety down in the box to stop him and he got pennies in FA. 
You’re basically just saying we should’ve run the ball despite the obvious personnel issues and despite the successful results of doing it the other way which makes no sense.  
You point to a DL running game ONCE YOU SUBTRACT  the production of one of the best offesive weapons in the NFL and seem to ignore the fact that we were #2 yards, scoring and YPP. Makes no sense. Talking about trying to build a narrative. 
This year I think the offense will look different for two reasons.  1 is to extend Josh‘s career and 2 because we have added a ton of skill and OL talent. 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

6 hours ago, QCity said:

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

 

6 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

We will know a lot more after this year. We don't know the play calls and what Allen should be doing in every given play. But we could all tell from starting with the second half of the Green Bay game to the end of the season the offense just never seemed in sync or smooth. Whatever you want to call it, something didn't feel right. But yet as you pointed out statistically the numbers were fine. 

It just felt that yards were hard to come by and scheming guys open for easy completions was absent. As you pointed out there were too many deep shots when they needed more move the chains underneath throws.  Yet they started well. So was that teams figuring out Dorsey, was that the elbow, was that bad o-line play? Probably all of the above.

 

I think the key is as QCity stated, no identity and that is something you can't measure with stats.  So their red zone offense improved in the 2nd half statistically.  That doesn't seem to pass the eye ball test IMO.

 

I agree too with Ethan on the exact timing of when things seemed to go south.

 

I don't blame him for the Hines use though as can recall reading between Allen's injury and not practicing and then the snow storm upending the schedule and practice days, can recall reading in early December, Hines and Allen had only been able to practice two days together.

 

Do recall no one seemed to be too happy with Daboll's first year either or even 2nd or 3rd.  I do think he can improve and learn from it, we'll find out this coming year, likely if he doesn't it will be his last.  I know there was a thread just yesterday about how safe is McD beyond this coming year.  While I do think McD is safe for next year Dorsey without an improvement is not.

 

It does also make me nervous having an ex QB as the OC as QB's given the choice want to just keep throwing.  Is Dorsey trying too hard to be the mad scientist and come up with too many new ways to use Allen.  Does he see himself in Allen except Allen has the arm and body that he never had as a player and he wants to utilize that too much?

 

 

[gonzo1105]

Pretty straightforward. Offense was humming, mid season hit and the offense still scored but struggled to do so mostly because DCs caught onto what the Bills were doing and they didn’t adjust. 
 

Underutilized players such as Knox and Hines(who Beane admitted he traded for to help the offense) 

[PBF81]

16 minutes ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

So wait a second. You think Singletary or Cook are capable of the load those 3 RBs can handle?  Holy sh!t That is laughable.  Cook and Singletary aren’t  on the same planet as Cook, Henry and Barkley.  
Our RBs have benefited greatly from light boxes which Henry and Barkley never see. 
Your points about Allen being too involved are less about designed runs and more about Josh’s ridiculous abaility as probably the best Dual threat in the history of the NFL. Again, do you want to take the ball out of his hands and give it to 2 average RBs? Cook is incapable of being a true #1 - not even in high school was he that guy and we all know Singletary’s short comings and so does the rest of the NFL because they never respected him enough to put a safety down in the box to stop him and he got pennies in FA. 
You’re basically just saying we should’ve run the ball despite the obvious personnel issues and despite the successful results of doing it the other way which makes no sense.  
You point to a DL running game ONCE YOU SUBTRACT  the production of one of the best offesive weapons in the NFL and seem to ignore the fact that we were #2 yards, scoring and YPP. Makes no sense. Talking about trying to build a narrative. 
This year I think the offense will look different for two reasons.  1 is to extend Josh‘s career and 2 because we have added a ton of skill and OL talent. 

 

Oddly, you've still managed to miss the point.  

 

We'll see how things shake out this season and agree to disagree here.   

 

Go Bills!  This Diggs thing really threatens to damage this season.  That's the worst thing right now.  

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

All I’m getting is the same stuff people said about Daboll, which is exactly what I was expecting.

[SoMAn]

I haven't read the entire thread, but it's clear there's ample whining and finger-pointing.

 

WTF? They had a top offense and were 14-3 before stumbling against Cinci.  They lost those 3 by a total of 8 points!!!

How quickly so many have forgotten the drought through 17 years of (mostly) mediocrity.

 

As far as Dorsey goes, it's hard to tell how much of his play-calling was negated by breakdowns in protection/blocking, or Josh just playing too much hero ball and looking downfield when he had open targets for shorter passes. 

 

If you read between the lines during both Allen's and McDermott's pressers from a couple of weeks ago, it should be obvious there will be more thrust on keeping Josh more focused on taking what's given to him and chewing up yardage when necessary rather than looking for the homerun ball every time.

 

Seems to me there was a fair amount of 'fire Dabol' chatter every time they fell short of perfection during his time in that position.

 

I'm sure Dorsey wasn't perfect, but in my opinion, he did a decent job as a rookie OC and should only get better going forward.

 

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by SoMAn

[MJS]

Fans went from being mildly unsatisfied with Dorsey at the end of the season to full on wanting him fired and believing he is the worst OC in the league. All during THIS offseason. Not sure how this happened because there has been no football played.

 

It is just the shifting mindset of some fans, and it has been voiced so much now that it is becoming reality.

 

It is kind of like the "absence makes the heart grow fonder" principle, but in reverse. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, SoMAn said:

I haven't read the entire thread, but it's clear there's ample whining and finger-pointing.

 

WTF? They had a top offense and were 14-3 before stumbling against Cinci.  They lost those 3 by a total of 8 points!!!

How quickly so many have forgotten the drought through 17 years of (mostly) mediocrity.

 

As far as Dorsey goes, it's hard to tell how much of his play-calling was negated by breakdowns in protection/blocking, or Josh just playing too much hero ball and looking downfield when he had open targets for shorter passes. Seems to me there was a fair amount of 'fire Dabol' chatter every time they fell short of perfection.

 

I'm sure Dorsey wasn't perfect, but in my opinion, he did a decent job as a rookie OC and should only get better going forward.

 

 

The Bills have reached a certain level where anything less than perfection is criticized. Even though the Bills are better than almost every other offense they’re judge against perfection. That’s what is expected. Basic stats and analytic stats mean nothing if there’s any failure at all. At the end of the 2021 playoffs Allen was nearly perfect. That’s what fans think is the standard. They’re holding Dorsey to that standard.
 

 

[DapperCam]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

All I’m getting is the same stuff people said about Daboll, which is exactly what I was expecting.

And Daboll got plenty of hate as well. Not sure what the point of this thread is.

 

As for my reasons for not liking Dorsey last year:

- Offense felt like Allen just running around improvising too much

- Weak run game with the RBs. YPC was okay, but there was no confidence to run if we needed 2-3 yards for a first down. Even 1 yard seemed dicey on a critical down.

- Lack of outlets to make things easier for Allen. Where is the screen game? What about some jet sweeps or misdirection to keep the defense guessing?

- Lack of adjustment to the o-line being putrid. He doesn’t get to choose the players, but maybe don’t stick with slowly developing passing plays when the LG and RT are turnstiles? A general lack of adjustment was a theme.

 

I’m fine with the vertical passing game, but if that isn’t clicking for a given game and you have nothing else, then you’re cooked (see: Bengals playoff loss).

[letsgoteam]

5 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

This. Especially the jet sweep stuff. You have McKenzie who is going to see the field more and you don't run or atleast fake the jet sweeps. 

 

I am a McKenzie fan, Dorsey did a poor job of playing to McKenzie's strengths.

[Boatdrinks]

6 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Use of RBs was also a Daboll complaint. 
 

I dont see anything new. The Dorsey complaints are the Daboll complaints. The huge difference was redzone offense where Daboll was great drawing up plays. But this improved as the season went on so my complaint went away.

This is the difference to me, and it’s significant. Daboll was great at designing plays to take advantage of defenses. Especially in RZ. Dorsey seems to lack in this department. Not surprising for a rookie OC, but he must improve. Daboll was content to almost never run the ball. Not the case w the Giants due to Saquon. Dorsey has a lot to learn/ prove. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

And Daboll got plenty of hate as well. Not sure what the point of this thread is.

 

As for my reasons for not liking Dorsey last year:

- Offense felt like Allen just running around improvising too much

- Weak run game with the RBs. YPC was okay, but there was no confidence to run if we needed 2-3 yards for a first down. Even 1 yard seemed dicey on a critical down.

- Lack of outlets to make things easier for Allen. Where is the screen game? What about some jet sweeps or misdirection to keep the defense guessing?

- Lack of adjustment to the o-line being putrid. He doesn’t get to choose the players, but maybe don’t stick with slowly developing passing plays when the LG and RT are turnstiles? A general lack of adjustment was a theme.

 

I’m fine with the vertical passing game, but if that isn’t clicking for a given game and you have nothing else, then you’re cooked (see: Bengals playoff loss).

I was hoping people had actual substance to their complaints. Not just the typical stuff. Actual differences between what Daboll did and what Dorsey did. I ask because I didn’t see a huge difference between the 2. We were still 11 personnel mostly. We lost that slot weapon, Crowder was supposed to be it. The vertical game as the year went on was said to be due to Allen’s injury. The injury is an another reason why Dorsey shouldn’t get so much heat. Most of the complaints are post injury.