Receiving concerns on offense

[BigAl2526]

And Colin Cowherd didn't think the Bills did enough on the offensive line.  My feeling is the Bills did about as well as they could given the realities of the cap, to strengthen areas of the tea that needed upgrading.  They could have reallocated resources a bit differently, but it is only a guess as to what the Bills could have done better.  They could have thrown more money at WR, but it would have cost them elsewhere.  I just want to see what the results are with what we've got.

[Beck Water]

Just now, Jerry Jabber said:

Brought in a WR to battle it out for the #2 WR position, preferably a Veteran WR, someone that can run a full route tree (similar to how the Bills brought in Emmanuel Sanders). I’m still crossing my fingers the Bills can land Hopkins, but that’s on Hopkins and how much he’s willing to play for. 
 

Successful offenses have at least three good WR’s (Chiefs, Bengals come to mind). Enough of wasting all this capital (Draft picks or Free Agency) on the D-line!!!

 

Good enough, but who would that guy be? 
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/

Sort by WR and pick your guy

 

The Cold Hard Fiscal Facts seem to be that once you're paying a QB, a top WR, and a couple top OLman, you probably don't have the cap $$ to splurge on top talent in FA. 

 

It might be worth noting that as a FA signing for 1 yr/$6M, Sanders played 14 reg. season games and contributed 44.7 ypg, 5 targets and 3 receptions a game (58.3%).  He had a high Y/R of 14.9 and 3 drops (4.2%). 

 

Gabe Davis played 15 reg season games and contributed 55.7 ypg, 6 targets and 3 receptions a game (51.6%).  He had an even higher Y/R of 17.4 and 9 drops (9.7%).  Obviously the drops are very concerning, but I don't think the low catch % was entirely on Davis

 

And looked at as ROI, I'm not sure we got our money's worth for $6M from Sanders.
I've said elsewhere that I'm skeptical about our 2nd biggest FA splurge, Deonte Harty, being a good use of money. 

 

Anyway have a look, I'm not sold on our signing of Deonte Harty, but I'm also not sold on the ROI per investment for a bunch of those FA.  Who would you consider a good ROI and a better option at #2?

 

Your last line though puzzles me.  Last season, the Chiefs top receiver was a TE - Kelce of course.  Who are the Chiefs "three good WR"?  Tiktok Boy is decent.  MVS has always been a bit of a disappointment IMHO.  Who's the 3rd?  And do you really see TikTok Boy as an $8M step-up on Davis?

 

 

 

[Eastport bills]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

You forgot to mention Davis was our best receiver the last 2 playoffs. Remember the nickname “Big game Gabe”. He’s in his contract year and he’ll be better this season. You also have diminished Kincaid’s rating as the best TE in the draft, with the best hands. Shakir looked great at the end of the year and the Dolphins were crushed when Sherfield bolted. Hill’s comments were telling. His #s were great as 4th receiver getting scraps on a team with Hill and Waddle. Look for Knox and Kincaid to be major safety valve contributors with underneath crossers. I also see Hines lining up in the slot. Everyone not named Miami would love our receiver room.

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

 

Patrick Mahomes has Marquez Valdes Scantling, Kadarius Toney, Sky Moore, Travis Kelce and Rashee Rice, If those were Allens receivers imagine what we'd be saying about our receiving options. This whole notion that we don't have enough weapons baffles me. Diggs is a top 5 WR in the NFL, Knox is a solid TE, Davis is so underrated by this board it's almost criminal, Shakir looked really good as a rookie when given the chance and add in Harty and Dalton Kincaid plus we have RB Nyheim Hines to throw to. Plenty of options at Allens disposal imo.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

For all of the crap that Gabe Davis gets, he had 800 yards last year as a number two

 

Trent Sherfield is a bona fide number three we can’t let shakur waste away on the bench

 

If they start running more two te sets, we’re gonna be losing less wide receivers

[ngbills]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good enough, but who would that guy be? 
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/

Sort by WR and pick your guy

 

The Cold Hard Fiscal Facts seem to be that once you're paying a QB, a top WR, and a couple top OLman, you probably don't have the cap $$ to splurge on top talent in FA. 

 

It might be worth noting that as a FA signing for 1 yr/$6M, Sanders played 14 reg. season games and contributed 44.7 ypg, 5 targets and 3 receptions a game (58.3%).  He had a high Y/R of 14.9 and 3 drops (4.2%). 

 

Gabe Davis played 15 reg season games and contributed 55.7 ypg, 6 targets and 3 receptions a game (51.6%).  He had an even higher Y/R of 17.4 and 9 drops (9.7%).  Obviously the drops are very concerning, but I don't think the low catch % was entirely on Davis

 

And looked at as ROI, I'm not sure we got our money's worth for $6M from Sanders.
I've said elsewhere that I'm skeptical about our 2nd biggest FA splurge, Deonte Harty, being a good use of money. 

 

Anyway have a look, I'm not sold on our signing of Deonte Harty, but I'm also not sold on the ROI per investment for a bunch of those FA.  Who would you consider a good ROI and a better option at #2?

 

Your last line though puzzles me.  Last season, the Chiefs top receiver was a TE - Kelce of course.  Who are the Chiefs "three good WR"?  Tiktok Boy is decent.  MVS has always been a bit of a disappointment IMHO.  Who's the 3rd?  And do you really see TikTok Boy as an $8M step-up on Davis?

 

 

 

We could have used the Harty and Hines money to pay for Hopkins or pick your #2.

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, Jerry Jabber said:

IMO, the Bills have a #1 Diggs, #3 (but being used as a #2), Davis, but the rest of the WR’s are lower level WR’s. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing these guys beat teams like the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs, especially after seeing the Bills only score ten points in the playoff game against the Bengals this past January.

Can you explain this further? 

I really don't think you understand what #2 WRs do in the NFL now. Most potent offenses have a slot WR, a TE, or in McCaffrey case a RB as the number 2 target for passes after their #1. WR#2 on most offenses is going to be 3rd or 4th in targets. What the Bills lack is not Davis paying WR#2. He is an excellent WR with an elite YPC. He makes difficult catches often and he has consistency catching the ball issues. He's far from perfect but he is a near ideal WR#2.

What the Bills lack is two things. A slot WR like Beasley in his prime.  A guy that can catch 80 balls and move the chains. In 2023 I think the best we can hope for is slot by committee and hope that Kincaid, Shakir, and the others combine for 100-120 receptions.

They also lack the determination to get the ball to Knox. Knox has the ability to be a top 5 TE. They need to scheme and design more routes for him to take the pressure of Diggs. 

 

[JerseyBills]

2 hours ago, I'm Spartacus said:

I think Sherfield is going to suprise us.

Harty as well. He'll be the fastest guy out there and was criminally under used w terrible qb play

 

Turned down more $ to be here, adds a speed dimension in slot or outside

 

We definitely upgraded 

Last year we opened with Diggs,Davis McKenzie, Crowder, Shakir, Knox, Doyle/Morris 

 

23- Diggs,Davis,Shakir , Harty , Sherfield, Knox , Kincaid 

[Royale with Cheese]

I will hold my breath every time it's thrown to Gabe Davis.  

[Simon Says]

I would have been happy to add Demarcus Robinson, for example, as insurance. But ,yeah, if there is an injury to 

Diggs, I'll be very concerned

[ngbills]

23 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Harty as well. He'll be the fastest guy out there and was criminally under used w terrible qb play

 

Turned down more $ to be here, adds a speed dimension in slot or outside

 

We definitely upgraded 

Last year we opened with Diggs,Davis McKenzie, Crowder, Shakir, Knox, Doyle/Morris 

 

23- Diggs,Davis,Shakir , Harty , Sherfield, Knox , Kincaid 

Devils advocate:

22 Diggs is still 23 Diggs, slightly older. Same (could argue age = downgrade)

 

22 Davis vs 23 Davis - The 22 Davis was coming in with huge expectations after the playoff. He did not live up to the hype. Downgrade (based on reality)

 

22 McK / Crowder / Shakir vs 23 Shakir / Harty / Sherfield - Big ?. Shakir is still Shakir, last year there were mixed expectations, this year there are mixed expectations. McK and Crowder vs Harty and Sherfield? I dont know. Crowder is the most proven of them. McK can be polarizing, some say he is not used enough similar to Harty. Sherfield is serviceable. I don't see two guys that have been in the league 4 years and not done much being a huge upgrade over McK and Crowder. Same (could be better could be worse)

 

22 Knox/Morris vs Knox Kincaid - Unless Kincaid gets hurt or is not on the field this has to be an upgrade. Upgrade

[K-9]

How many concerns about the offense have you received? By whom and what are they most concerned about?

[jkeerie]

In my opinion, there were two main problems with last year's offense:  1.  The offensive line and 2.  Isaiah Mckenzie.  We've improved the offensive line...at least the quality of players.  Getting rid of McKenzie is addition by subtraction.   He could not be relied upon and, I believe cost us points.

[Augie]

I heard the Cards recently released a guy who might be available as a true #2.  Has anyone mentioned him yet? 

[BillsFanForever19]

The "Create another DeAndre Hopkins thread without mentioning DeAndre Hopkins" challenge.

[hondo in seattle]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

While I’m glad to see the Bills try and address the O-line, I’m not sure they’ve done enough to give Josh good/quality targets. IMO, going in the season with Gabe Davis as the #2 WR is a mistake. Davis underperformed last season as he struggled with drops and contested catches. I feel Davis is a better #3WR than the #2 WR. 
 

Trusting a rookie TE to be your slot guy is a huge risk. Would rather see a veteran WR in that position while they break Kincaid into that role.
 

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 
 

If there are no further upgrades to the WR group going into the season, I have concerns about the WR’s outside of Diggs. 

 

I'm both nervous and excited about the passing game in 2023.  I'm nervous because I do worry about the lack of a true #2 and I'm not sure Gabe will be any better this year than last.   But I do think that we have a solid group overall and Dorsey has some weapons for his offense.  

 

I don't think Kincaid will be an immediate force, but I do think he adds something to our offense that we hadn't had before.  He's a big, sure-handed, and a fluid route runner who's both skilled and comfortable working the middle of the field. 

 

I think Harty and Sherfield are better than the inconsistent McKenzie and injured Crowder who they replace.  

 

Shakir should be better with a full season under his belt.  

Both Cook and Hines can catch out of the backfield and I'm hoping Dorsey integrates the backs into the passing game better this year, particularly as outlet receivers. 

 

An improved OL will give a chance for plays to develop and time for Josh to go through his progressions.  

 

If Dorsey does his job, and players (Josh, especially) stay healthy, this should be a dynamic passing attack.  

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

IMO, the Bills have a #1 Diggs, #3 (but being used as a #2), Davis, but the rest of the WR’s are lower level WR’s. Sorry, but I have a hard time seeing these guys beat teams like the Bengals and Chiefs in the playoffs, especially after seeing the Bills only score ten points in the playoff game against the Bengals this past January.

 

The good news is the playoffs are in January, not September.  By then a player like Kincaid could be doing pretty well.  A QB like Allen makes everyone around him look better too.  They also should have better capability of pass catching out of the backfield too with Cook having a year experience, plus the Murray, Harris, and Hines.  Recall last year reading between Allen being hurt and not practicing, then the snow storm limiting things, in early December, Hines and Allen had only practiced 2 or 3 times together.  Davis also was hurt a good part of the year too.

 

The other side of it, who should they have signed with limited $$ to spend.  Most of their signings were all lower salaried players with a couple of exceptions.  Not sure what true #2 WR they could have signed with the amount of money they had.  Maybe if Hopkins finds out there's little market for him at the salary he wants, they will sign him too, doubtful IMO but every day he remains unsigned increases the chances too.

[Jerry Jabber]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

You forgot to mention Davis was our best receiver the last 2 playoffs. Remember the nickname “Big game Gabe”. He’s in his contract year and he’ll be better this season. You also have diminished Kincaid’s rating as the best TE in the draft, with the best hands. Shakir looked great at the end of the year and the Dolphins were crushed when Sherfield bolted. Hill’s comments were telling. His #s were great as 4th receiver getting scraps on a team with Hill and Waddle. Look for Knox and Kincaid to be major safety valve contributors with underneath crossers. I also see Hines lining up in the slot. Everyone not named Miami would love our receiver room.

"Big Game Gabe" had 2 receptions for 34 yards against the Bengals in the playoffs last year. 

 

Betting on a rookie to make an immediate impact is always very risky! 

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, ngbills said:

We could have used the Harty and Hines money to pay for Hopkins or pick your #2.

 

What is the Hopkins released much later than we made these deals pretty sure that that’s the case

[Matt_In_NH]

3 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I’m interested in seeing how the Bills use Harty and Sherfield, but neither guy has had eye-popping stats. 

 

Kincard, Harty and Sherfield are an upgrade over Crowder, McKenzie and Kumerow.  Anyone think otherwise?   Kincard has traits this offense has never seen, same can be said about Harty.  Maybe if Crowder stayed healthy last years group would look better but McKenzie and Kumerow had more limitations that the guys who are replacing them.  Harty is an injury waiting to happen too though so there is that.  Can't disagree about Davis, not sure he is a real number 2 but he gets another shot at it in a contract year.   Bills Mafia is weird about him, they dont want him to be the number 2 but they want to pay him as a number 2.  I love what he has been in big moments but I let him walk vs paying him a lot of cash.