Thanks coach McDermott… you’re one of the best coaches in the game.

[pocoboy]

On 6/11/2023 at 10:41 AM, Dopey said:

From 20 year losers to regular division winners and SB contenders. 
Here ya go newcam2012, PBF81 and the like, flame away. I noticed a trend a while ago here. Any attempt at a positive thread MUST be shot down by negative Nancies. Hey Einstein, are the Bengals still better than the Bills? Thing is we’ve read your negative crap already. We know! We get it! You guys make this board a ***** place IMO. Go get laid or something. Life is awesome and it sucks that people like me stay away from this place to come  back a few weeks later and the same vocal group is writing the same 💩 as weeks ago. From what I read, Allen is the only good thing we have going for us. Last thought: you guys suck and it feels like you’re taking this site with you. Enjoy. 

 

My only observation about McDermott & the team at this stage is about development and learning from mistakes. The thing with Dungy (mentioned by another commenter), he won it all when he ended up with a bonafide HOF QB. To me, McDermott has the tools to win it all if either (or both) a) he learns from the tactical mistakes of previous years, or b) Josh Allen finds his way into that elite company. Is JA17 ever going to be Peyton? That's highly unlikely. But at this stage he's not HOF ready. The best way would be finishing it off in style, leading the team to the ring. Longevity is also an option. At this point, we're left saying "he did everything he could save for 13 seconds" which discounts the Bengals' and Rams' stature.

 

McDermott definitely deserves love, but these contracts are going to make it a bear if they don't come together and get it done soon.

 

ADDENDUM - I think when we mention Dungy, you could toss Reid into this discussion too. With a legitimate HOF QB he overcame those tactical mistakes that dogged him in Philly.

Edited June 12, 2023 by pocoboy

[Augie]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

I love the folks around here who come to a public forum, which is a marketplace for the exchange of differing ideas, and then project their own idea as the only worth adopting...and further...poop all over any idea that differs with their own.

 

If you live that much in your own head, OP, why would you come here in the first place?

 

Just sit at home happy in your knowledge that we have the greatest HC of all time, and enjoy the ride.

 

Why do you want to force your views down the throats of others?

 

 

 

Where is the bold stated? The title says “one of the best coaches in the game”, and I think that is fairly accurate. I guess it sounds better if you go all extreme and put words in his mouth. Did I miss something? 

 

 

[K D]

2 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

I think the real question is - were Bills fans happier when we were purely a poor team instead of a good team who haven't been the best?  That's the question I'd love a genuine response to from a lot of people on this board.

I've been on this forum for over a decade and it's always been the same goal: win the super bowl. There are no moral victories. History does not remember the losers or the almost was.

 

McDermott might be the Marvin Lewis of coaches. Good enough to consistently get into the playoffs but not good enough to win it all. But people don't want to hear that because they are just happy to be here. That's a pretty low bar. If you have a top 5 defense and QB you should be in the super bowl by now. I would hold any team in the league to that standard. The results just are not good enough 

[PrimeTime101]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You aggravate me sometimes, but one of the things I like about you is that you get the point.   

 

You would argue that with a different oline, Allen could be the best.   But you say "could" because you understand that it's more or less unknowable.   I mean, who knows, really, why Allen's performances are inconsistent compared to the very best QBs?  Might be oline, might be Dorsey, might be Allen.  

 

And you acknowledge that in the second quote, when you say, "are you sure?   Answer:  no, none of us can be sure.  What's really aggravating about posters is when they are unwilling to acknowledge that none of us, including ourselves, really knows.  

 

In my opinion, @GunnerBill knows more about the game and about the Bills than anyone posting regularly these days.  I'm inclined to believe most anything he says.  But not everything.  Occasionally, he'll say something that doesn't make sense.  When someone replies and explains the point, Gunner readily agrees and adjusts his thinking.  His knowledge is great, but it's his willingness to learn and change his opinion that makes him a must-read around here. 

I have eaten my crow now and then too.. your right @GunnerBill is one person I would rarely argue a point with. But I do bend to other persons opinions and Ideals. I try anyhow

[Einstein]

48 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Just so that I understand what you’re saying here because McDermott is not as good of a coach as Andy Reid therefore, he is a poor coach?

 

Oh no, not at all.

 

McDermott is NOT a poor coach. He is just not a great or elite coach. 

 

And it’s hard for me to watch us waste Allen’s career on a coach that is just “good”.

[Teddy KGB]

Screen name checks out.   
 

it’s all Allen bro    Mc choker ain’t it 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

When someone replies and explains the point, Gunner readily agrees and adjusts his thinking.  His knowledge is great, but it's his willingness to learn and change his opinion that makes him a must-read around here. 

 

Gunner is my favorite poster as well. Even when we disagree. I thought Gunner was a women though? Perhaps i’ve been wrong on that.

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Gunner is my favorite poster as well. Even when we disagree. I thought Gunner was a women though? Perhaps i’ve been wrong on that.

 

Even with these modern interpretations I am not a woman.

[Einstein]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Even with these modern interpretations I am not a woman.

 

Ok, I never flirted with you!

[TBBills Fan]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Even with these modern interpretations I am not a woman.

 

 

but do you identify as one?

[GunnerBill]

29 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Ok, I never flirted with you!

 

It's okay. I kept the nudes.

[newcam2012]

12 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Can they see the forest for the trees?

 

It's hard to tell. They're too busy saying that that thing over there isn't a forest or trees, it's a burnt-out ruin of what could have been a forest.

 

I can see them Thurman. It's just not as green as I would like. 

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's not an excuse. It's an explanation.

 

And it's not getting old. You're getting sick of hearing it despite the fact that it makes a ton of sense, that it fits the facts better than anything else. You're sick of hearing it because it busts your narrative. If old matters, your blame-shaming is just as old but stupider.

 

That chart you post about how we didn't have as many injuries as some other teams? Where's the chart about which teams had the most important injuries. With Von Miller we looked like a Super Bowl favorite. Without him a possible contender. The guys we lost on defense were some of the most important players for us, the ones we could least afford to lose, Hyde, Miller and Da'Quan in the Bengals game are crucial pieces for us. And some of the guys who still gutted it out and played as well as they could but well below their usual standard, Phillips, with one arm, replacing Da'Quan, Tre' White just not able to play anywhere near his standard even though he was on the field, and Jordan Poyer looking like a Buffalo rather than a shark, were also key pieces.

 

That chart is deceptive, because some games missed due to injuries are much more important than others and we lost some of our most important players. And pretending that chart is very accurate about quality of players lost is ridiculous. It determines value by AV. And AV is OK at summing up careers, but not particularly accurate at all with picking out value to a team in any particular season. On defense we lost a lot of our most valuable players and several of the ones injured but playing were not able to play close to their usual level.

 

Where's the chart about which other teams had guys die on the field? Seriously, where's that chart? Where's the chart about how many other teams had player's brothers, healthy college football players, die during the season? Where's the chart about mass shooters? Or the one about all the other teams that had home games moved to away stadiums, or the one about all the other teams that had never in NFL history had so many away games in so few days as we did in Weeks 11 - 13.

 

Is this a "so everything's OK" get out of jail free card? No, they still had a bad game, but anyone who doesn't realize that all this and the blizzards and the rest of it was a huge factor is busier pushing a narrative than actually noticing how the world works.

 

If you don't see that that season was one of the hardest most draining seasons in NFL history ... you just don't get it.

Can't an explanation be an excuse? I don't believe they are independent. 

 

Or does the term "explanation" fit your narrative? 

 

Clever...

[newcam2012]

11 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's not an excuse. It's an explanation.

 

And it's not getting old. You're getting sick of hearing it despite the fact that it makes a ton of sense, that it fits the facts better than anything else. You're sick of hearing it because it busts your narrative. If old matters, your blame-shaming is just as old but stupider.

 

That chart you post about how we didn't have as many injuries as some other teams? Where's the chart about which teams had the most important injuries. With Von Miller we looked like a Super Bowl favorite. Without him a possible contender. The guys we lost on defense were some of the most important players for us, the ones we could least afford to lose, Hyde, Miller and Da'Quan in the Bengals game are crucial pieces for us. And some of the guys who still gutted it out and played as well as they could but well below their usual standard, Phillips, with one arm, replacing Da'Quan, Tre' White just not able to play anywhere near his standard even though he was on the field, and Jordan Poyer looking like a Buffalo rather than a shark, were also key pieces.

 

That chart is deceptive, because some games missed due to injuries are much more important than others and we lost some of our most important players. And pretending that chart is very accurate about quality of players lost is ridiculous. It determines value by AV. And AV is OK at summing up careers, but not particularly accurate at all with picking out value to a team in any particular season. On defense we lost a lot of our most valuable players and several of the ones injured but playing were not able to play close to their usual level.

 

Where's the chart about which other teams had guys die on the field? Seriously, where's that chart? Where's the chart about how many other teams had player's brothers, healthy college football players, die during the season? Where's the chart about mass shooters? Or the one about all the other teams that had home games moved to away stadiums, or the one about all the other teams that had never in NFL history had so many away games in so few days as we did in Weeks 11 - 13.

 

Is this a "so everything's OK" get out of jail free card? No, they still had a bad game, but anyone who doesn't realize that all this and the blizzards and the rest of it was a huge factor is busier pushing a narrative than actually noticing how the world works.

 

If you don't see that that season was one of the hardest most draining seasons in NFL history ... you just don't get it.

Lots of good points here Thurman. Always, enjoy your post even if they conflict with my perspective. 

 

I don't think anyone disputes last season was "one of the hardest and most draining seasons in NFL history." I'd be foolish to debate that premise. To suggest anyone is saying this is pretty disingenuous.

 

What's debatable is how much did the season's events impact the team? More specifically, the playoff games vs Miami and Cinci? You don't know nor do I. It's all speculation. 

 

Many suggest it had a great impact since the Bills players so poorly vs Cinci and barely beat Miami. Is that an opinion or fact? Could one say with validity that the Bills just weren't that good? That the Damar impact was behind them due to his miracle recover? 

 

Let's go back in history sort of speak. Upon entering the playoffs the Bills players and fans were getting fantastic updates on Damar's progress. It was increasing clear that Damar was going to be fine. He was alive, getting stronger each day, humble, and inspirational. 

 

It was fairly clear to me that Damar's life threatening experience was being transitioned into a motivating experience for fans and players. Fans and players gravitating towards win it all for Damar! It's fate! 

 

Fans packed the stadium with Damar jerseys and signs. You could feel the relief on the fans and players. It was time to play football! If you didn't feel it " you just don't get it."

 

The Bills played a resilant, upstart, gritty, and AFC rival Dolphins. A very tough fought out win. Resilience is a word that comes to mind. Not one word about how tough the season's journey was. Not one word about how Damar negatively impacted the players. No "explanations" if you will. No excuses if you will. 

 

Fast forward to the Cinci game. Did you hear anything about how the season's journey was too much to overcome? Did it even enter your mind? 

 

This wasn't even a consideration for anyone on this board. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Most thought the Bills would win. They were playing at home vs a depleted Cinci Oline. Damar was likely going to make an impact prior to the game. This was looked at as a positive not a negative. 

 

We know how the game was played and ended. No need to go there. Actually, brings back a little pain, frustration, and anger to reminess. 

 

Point being no one really knows what level of impact the season's journey had on the outcome of the Miami or Cinci games. I'd be naive to think it didn't have some role. However, I tend to think that the season's journey played a significant role to the Bills playoff loss. Instead, I think the Bills were the inferior team. Led by an inferior coaching staff that didn't put the players in the best position to win. 

[section122]

I will defend and support McD every time.  He is the winningest coach in team history by win % in the super bowl era. He has the 2nd most wins in the playoffs and regular season.

 

Last year the Bills lost to the Bengals.  Setting aside your homer glasses, does anyone really think the Bills at that point were as talented as the Bengals?  Preseason, I think they were.  By the time the game was played the Bengals were the better team.  Burrow is at least as good as Allen.  The receivers are much better than what the Bills have.  The RBs for the Bengals were better.  When you switch to defense, the Bills were missing Hyde and Von, they had a banged up Poyer, they were starting their 3rd string safety.  As much some posters want you to believe the Bills should have won the game and therefore McD blew it, I disagree.

 

The 13 seconds is a tough pill to swallow.  Not kicking it squib style and forcing a few seconds off the clock is certainly on coaching.  That said, those 2 teams were even and 1 has Mahomes who is BY FAR the best QB in the game.  I will grant this to those that are upset with McD but as you will see that is the only one.

 

They made it to the AFC championship game.  With a beaten up Diggs and Beasley and lost to the trio of Mahomes, Kelce, and Hill.  I think at this time the Chiefs had a better, more experienced team.  The Chiefs were 14-2 and at home for this game.

 

The Texans game, again on the road, against a team with a better record.  Perhaps you remember the black shirts coming out and changing the ruling?  No matter your thoughts whether it should have been a td (wrong imo) or a safety (correct imo) points were taken off the board.  Or perhaps you remember the screw job on the block call that negated what would have likely led to the game winning fg?  Perhaps like me, you don't want to blame the refs and instead want to compare teams.  Josh was still not quite Josh (Sugar High Josh anyone?) and his best receiver that day was Duke freaking Williams.

 

Can we talk about the tank year?  I remember the pit feeling when I saw that Watkins and Darby had been traded.  Remember early in the year when people were asking if the Bills would lose to Alabama?  Or when a player retired at halftime week 2?  They didn't even finish last in the division.

 

Lastly he coached a team that hadn't been to the playoffs in 17 years, a team that was projected for 6 wins, to 9 wins and the first playoffs in 17 years.  

 

All in all, he has had 1 losing season in his career.  He has yet to lose a playoff game in upset fashion (one where he had the better team going in).  You can hold 13 seconds against him, however all this ridiculous talk of him not being good enough is just based off of how last season ended.  The discounting of the team watching a teammate LITERALLY DIE ON THE FIELD in front of them is unbelievable to me.  I'm just a fan who was watching at home and it was very jarring.  Seeing the players and how they performed after, it was clearly an issue for them as well.

 

Here are some numbers:

 

There are only 9 active coaches who have won a super bowl. 5 of those coaches won theirs 10+ years ago.

 

There are only 5 active coaches who have been to at least 2 super bowls. 3 of them have only been to 2.

 

There are only 2 active coaches who have won 2 or more super bowls.  They had Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes.  I love Allen but he isn't on their level.  Winning the bowl is hard and takes a lot of luck

 

    

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, pocoboy said:

 

My only observation about McDermott & the team at this stage is about development and learning from mistakes. The thing with Dungy (mentioned by another commenter), he won it all when he ended up with a bonafide HOF QB. To me, McDermott has the tools to win it all if either (or both) a) he learns from the tactical mistakes of previous years, or b) Josh Allen finds his way into that elite company. Is JA17 ever going to be Peyton? That's highly unlikely. But at this stage he's not HOF ready. The best way would be finishing it off in style, leading the team to the ring. Longevity is also an option. At this point, we're left saying "he did everything he could save for 13 seconds" which discounts the Bengals' and Rams' stature.

 

McDermott definitely deserves love, but these contracts are going to make it a bear if they don't come together and get it done soon.

 

ADDENDUM - I think when we mention Dungy, you could toss Reid into this discussion too. With a legitimate HOF QB he overcame those tactical mistakes that dogged him in Philly.

I like this.  And to add on to it, even thought it's a McDermott thread, is that I've always thought that although Josh won't ever be Peyton, I think it's quite likely to be, and maybe outperform,  Elway.  They are just so similar in style, athleticism, arm, onfield attitude, everything.  I think Josh is better, physically and pure arm strength, but he's in the same period that Elway was in his career.  He's now being forced to learn, really learn, how to run a game.  It took Elway to the end of his career to put it all together.  If Josh can there in the next couple of years, he'll be fantastic for years.  

[todd]

I agree that McD is a good coach, but it is really not cool to attack fellow Bills fans like that, even if they are wrong. Not cool, man. You should apologize. 

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Because you spend all of your time studying sub-atomic particles, you can be excused your ignorance, but it's ignorance nonetheless.   

Scientists who work in the field have shown conclusively that traumatic events have serious, long-term, psychological effects.   

In some instances, it's called post-traumatic stress disorder.  They've also shown that multiple traumatic events has more serious cumulative impacts.  For example, children who experience one serious traumatic event typically recover; children who experience three or more are quite likely to have serious, long-term negative psychological issues.  

 

This particular group of men, more so than most pro football teams, is closely attached to the community.   A mass murder of the kind that took place in 

Buffalo affects many people in the community for a long time, including many people who did not witness the event and did not lose a loved one.  I live in Connecticut, and the community of Newtown has not recovered from their mass shooting, and that event took place ten years ago.   They are not close to recovering.  

 

On top of that, the team's owner, a virtual family member, had a major health care incident.   The brother of one of the players died.  The community suffered a snow storm in which more than 40 people died.  And finally, one of their teammates nearly died, in the field, before their eyes.   

 

It was an unprecedented emotional year for a football team.  Other than the Marshall plane crash, I can't recall anything remotely similar, in quantity of events and magnitude of events. 

 

It's ignorant and insensitive of you to sit comfortably at your keyboard and dismiss it all as nothing.  

Shaw, you have no idea how much of an impact the Damar incident affected the Bills players. 

 

You have no idea if any of them suffered from PTSD? For how long? How they coped with it? If it affected their play and practice? 

 

You have no idea if the Damar incident could have been used as a positive when he was released from the hospital, talked to his teammates, and perhaps gave them inspirational words. 

 

It's unknown. What's known is that it certainly was used as an explanation as to why the Bills lost to the Bengals. Along with snowstorms, injuries, etc...Pick you explanation...

 

 

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Like I said, you're ignorant.  I explained every one of your objections here, and you still raised them.  Bye-bye.

Ignorance is playing doctor from the seat of your living tv.

 

You have no idea who and what impact that incident played on each Bills player. 

 

Making a blanket statement about PTSD doesn't cut it...

6 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

You simply made more excuses that don't fit in with the facts of what happened. 

 

You must be flabbergasted at how the Lakers were able to win the NBA Championship the year that Kobe died in a fiery helicopter accident, and covid was happening, 

Great point. Everyone deals with trauma differently. To suggest the level of impact on a team is something that's impossible. 

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

I've been on this forum for over a decade and it's always been the same goal: win the super bowl. There are no moral victories. History does not remember the losers or the almost was.

 

McDermott might be the Marvin Lewis of coaches. Good enough to consistently get into the playoffs but not good enough to win it all. But people don't want to hear that because they are just happy to be here. That's a pretty low bar. If you have a top 5 defense and QB you should be in the super bowl by now. I would hold any team in the league to that standard. The results just are not good enough 

Great post. I echo the same sentiments. 

[Shaw66]

15 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Lots of good points here Thurman. Always, enjoy your post even if they conflict with my perspective. 

 

I don't think anyone disputes last season was "one of the hardest and most draining seasons in NFL history." I'd be foolish to debate that premise. To suggest anyone is saying this is pretty disingenuous.

 

What's debatable is how much did the season's events impact the team? More specifically, the playoff games vs Miami and Cinci? You don't know nor do I. It's all speculation. 

 

Many suggest it had a great impact since the Bills players so poorly vs Cinci and barely beat Miami. Is that an opinion or fact? Could one say with validity that the Bills just weren't that good? That the Damar impact was behind them due to his miracle recover? 

 

Let's go back in history sort of speak. Upon entering the playoffs the Bills players and fans were getting fantastic updates on Damar's progress. It was increasing clear that Damar was going to be fine. He was alive, getting stronger each day, humble, and inspirational. 

 

It was fairly clear to me that Damar's life threatening experience was being transitioned into a motivating experience for fans and players. Fans and players gravitating towards win it all for Damar! It's fate! 

 

Fans packed the stadium with Damar jerseys and signs. You could feel the relief on the fans and players. It was time to play football! If you didn't feel it " you just don't get it."

 

The Bills played a resilant, upstart, gritty, and AFC rival Dolphins. A very tough fought out win. Resilience is a word that comes to mind. Not one word about how tough the season's journey was. Not one word about how Damar negatively impacted the players. No "explanations" if you will. No excuses if you will. 

 

Fast forward to the Cinci game. Did you hear anything about how the season's journey was too much to overcome? Did it even enter your mind? 

 

This wasn't even a consideration for anyone on this board. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Most thought the Bills would win. They were playing at home vs a depleted Cinci Oline. Damar was likely going to make an impact prior to the game. This was looked at as a positive not a negative. 

 

We know how the game was played and ended. No need to go there. Actually, brings back a little pain, frustration, and anger to reminess. 

 

Point being no one really knows what level of impact the season's journey had on the outcome of the Miami or Cinci games. I'd be naive to think it didn't have some role. However, I tend to think that the season's journey played a significant role to the Bills playoff loss. Instead, I think the Bills were the inferior team. Led by an inferior coaching staff that didn't put the players in the best position to win. 

This is great.  It's tough medicine to swallow, but your view on is could very well be true.  Maybe the Bills just weren't good enough.  I think there's something to that.   But I also will say that the Bills inability to play as well as anyone expected coincided with the onset of the emotional disruption.   At the end of the day, there's certainly some truth in both views.  

 

To Beane's credit, he's done what looks like a pretty good job improving the team.  I like the receiver room, I like the additions on the interior of the oline, the additions to the dline.  It's not clear what the answer will be at middle linebacker, but I like the potential.  

 

Both the personnel improvements and the distance from the emotional chaos that was 2022 suggest that the Bills should be a serious contender for the Lombardi.   In a way, it's a serious test for McDermott and Beane.   "You've been through the worst, you have your quarterback, your roster.  Now is the time to show you can do it."