Is the platooning on the DL philosophical or a product of not enough great players?

[HardyBoy]

7 hours ago, mjt328 said:

The Bills definitely rotate the Defensive Line more than most teams.  But at the same time... if a guy is playing really well, he's probably going to earn more snaps than what we are currently seeing from Ed Oliver.

 

Von Miller is easily the best D-Lineman that we've had during Sean McDermott's tenure.  He had quite a few games around 70-75% snaps.

That's quite a bit less than stud pass rushers on another team.  For example, T.J. Watt usually gets 85-90% of snaps for the Steelers.

But it's also way higher than Jerry Hughes in his last year with us, who maxed out around 60-65% snaps.

 

 

TJ Watt also tore his pec on basically the last snap of the game...my understanding is that is a fatigue injury as much as anything else.

[Richard Noggin]

8 hours ago, ndirish1978 said:

Giants won a SB platooning Umenyiora, Tuck, Strahan and Kiwanuka. They just basically sprinted to the QB all day.

 

The NASCAR 4-DE package employed by the Giants was only possible if they were stout against the run and otherwise fundamentally sound when fielding more conventional D-line groupings. We remember the pass-rushing sub-package but not the early down base package. So it goes.

[Captain_Quint]

17 hours ago, eSJayDee said:

I think it's a combination of both.  Yes, fatigue or "hunger" comes into play, but it's an optimization thing.  You've got a great player, who the more they play, the weaker they get.  At some point, a mediocre talent playing at 100% is better than a (significantly ) better player playing at 100-x%.  If you've got 2 mediocre players, let them split time in the hopes that their increased playing time will improve their abilities.  And you don't know which is more likely to improve and of course further, there's diminishing returns on the "experience" factor as well as fatigue/"damage".

It's like playing Ninja Turtles video games. You've got 4 turtles to work with, so why just wear down Leonardo until he's dead? You rotate them and keep them all alive so that you can fight Shredder. 

[The Frankish Reich]

21 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

Aaron Donald was on the field for almost 90% of all defensive snaps in the Rams Super Bowl year.

So your proposition is correct - you keep truly elite talent on the field.

But I think there's a little confusion about cause and effect: one of the reasons Donald is elite is because he is able to play at high intensity and skill play after play after play, quarter after quarter after quarter, game after game after game. In MLB, statisticians compute "Wins Above Replacement (Player Level)" or WAR. It is cumulative. A guy who is a tremendous hitter in 200 plate appearances is not as "good" as a guy who is a really good hitter in 600 plate appearances. This is the same reason Aaron Donald is great and is headed to the Hall of Fame. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[Heavy Kevi]

It's philosophical.

 

Ever since the not-amazong giants took down the "unbeatable" pats in the SB (twice) mainly because of dominant dline rotation, it's been popular for teams to try.

 

The talent level of Buf dline right now vs Osi/Tuck/Strahan/etc is debatable of course, but the approach remains the same:

 

Keep the dline fresh so you can keep pressure on QBs late in games and mitigate the effects of things like no huddle or other sped-up offenses. It works too, just look at those Super Bowls by NYG, and has worked as recently as LAR, and hell, we have two of those same d-lineman on the roster right now.

[MJS]

A lot of teams do it. McDermott is not unique in that regard.

[Royale with Cheese]

Other teams do it.  I don't think we are even at the top of the league in DL rotations.

22 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

 

The Eagles had the 3rd most sacks in NFL history last year.

 

https://www.nbcsportsphiladelphia.com/nfl/philadelphia-eagles/a-hidden-advantage-of-rotating-defensive-linemen-for-eagles/255675/

 

The Eagles have nine interior linemen or overhang players — edge rushers — who’ve played between 23 and 63 percent of the defensive snaps. That’s rare balance and rare depth.

And it means somebody is constantly running off the field and joining his teammates on the sideline. 

Which leads to impromptu positional meetings while the offense is on the field.

“Any time you relay information with each other it gives you a little edge,” Jordan Davis said. “We’re all trying to figure out any tendencies, anything to do with the snap call, the way the offensive line is set, anything like that.

“Because it’s football and each week is going to be different and what you see on the field might not be the same thing that you saw on film, so you get those little tips and pointers, and when it’s your turn to go out there you feel a little bit more prepared for what you’re going to see.”

Edge rushers Josh Sweat and Haason Reddick have played the most snaps out of this group – both have played 131 snaps, or 63 percent of the Eagles' defensive plays. Javon Hargrave (57 percent), Fletcher Cox (56 percent), Milton Williams (45 percent), Graham (41 percent), Marlon Tuipulotu (39 percent), Davis (32 percent) and Patrick Johnson (23 percent) are also in the regular rotation. 

[BarleyNY]

23 hours ago, FireChans said:

This is a serious question. I am a serious person.

 

We all know that for a large part of McD’s tenure here, he platoons the heck out of the DL. Philosophically, in certain areas, it makes sense. LoRax was old, use him a little less. The young guys need reps, let them get involved. 

 

But I have to wonder if that’s really what they WANT to do all the time. Do they want Oliver playing 60% of the snaps or would they prefer him at 80% because he’s playing so well there’s no reason to take him off the field?

 

For the record, I don’t think this has anything to do with “over emphasizing defense” or whatever. I don’t think the Bills have been egregiously one sided in investments. 
 

But I do wonder if the platoon of AJE, Boogie, Greg, Oliver etc etc etc over the years is just what this team wants to do, or if it’s more that a lot of those guys haven’t given the coaches enough of a reason to leave them out there longer.

 

For me, the answer is probably “a little of both” but in light of the Floyd signing, I think it’s a worthy topic.

 

The heavy DL rotation is philosophical. Draft and cap investments as well as roster construction over this regime’s tenure shows that. Obviously they’ll want their best on the field at the most important times, but the rotation helps keeps those players fresh. Philadelphia heavily employs this strategy. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

21 hours ago, HardyBoy said:

 

TJ Watt also tore his pec on basically the last snap of the game...my understanding is that is a fatigue injury as much as anything else.

 

He also has 1 sack in 3 career playoff games.  As though perhaps... he might be a bit more banged up at the end of the year and thus less effective.  

[JoPoy88]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:39 AM, FireChans said:

This is a serious question. I am a serious person.

 

We all know that for a large part of McD’s tenure here, he platoons the heck out of the DL. Philosophically, in certain areas, it makes sense. LoRax was old, use him a little less. The young guys need reps, let them get involved. 

 

But I have to wonder if that’s really what they WANT to do all the time. Do they want Oliver playing 60% of the snaps or would they prefer him at 80% because he’s playing so well there’s no reason to take him off the field?

 

For the record, I don’t think this has anything to do with “over emphasizing defense” or whatever. I don’t think the Bills have been egregiously one sided in investments. 
 

But I do wonder if the platoon of AJE, Boogie, Greg, Oliver etc etc etc over the years is just what this team wants to do, or if it’s more that a lot of those guys haven’t given the coaches enough of a reason to leave them out there longer.

 

For me, the answer is probably “a little of both” but in light of the Floyd signing, I think it’s a worthy topic.

I think with McDermott it is largely philosophical. With other teams/coaches/personnel it can lean the other way towards necessity.

[AuntieEm]

On 6/5/2023 at 12:13 PM, Nextmanup said:

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

0nly to a certain extent.  I know if we had an elite player you still would have to monitor his snaps and every game it would be different because the effort that player needs will fluctuate based on the player he will be engaged with.  In a game against a talented ol he will exert much more energy than if he ragdolls some inept lesser athlete. 

 

 

 

 

[Big Turk]

On 6/5/2023 at 12:44 PM, GoBills808 said:

Great players stay on the field

 

Or get injured and then are off the field.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

It's what other posters have said.

 

You want to keep the dline fresh so they can get after the qb in the 4th quarter 

[Rocky Landing]

I wish I could remember where I read the article, but there was one written on defensive line rotation about a year ago, and the Bills were indeed high on the list of teams that had a heavy rotation, but not the highest. IIRC they were somewhere around fifth. 

 

I'm definitely of the "it all starts in the trenches" philosophy myself, and the thing is, D-line a much more strenuous job than O-line. Having a competent rotation that allows your best players to remain relatively fresh going into the fourth quarter is a huge advantage. Also, having a rotation that can apply different players' strengths situationally is an asset, and the ability to line up different player combinations helps keep the opposing O-line guessing. 

 

I feel like we always go into the season with high hopes for the D-line rotation, but as the season wears on, that rotation slows down. They even carried 11 D-linesmen in '21. With McDermott calling the defense now, and the assumption that he's going to be more aggressive, I wonder if we might see the rotation speed up?

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2023 by Rocky Landing

[Freddie's Dead]

The latter, of course.

[Airseven]

It’s a philosophy that lends to mediocrity since there can’t be enough money to go around.

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

And it got them absolutely no where against Mahomes in the SB…. Hopefully if the Bills make it they will be going up against a non elite QB that can’t make pass rush(and defense in general) negligible. 

 

Did the Giants beat Brady twice in the Super Bowl by shootouts or because they harassed Brady all day?

How did Wade Phillips stop Brady in the AFCCG?

How did Mahomes lose the Super Bowl against the Bucs?

What was the difference maker in the Super Bowl with the Bengals and Rams?

 

I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that a pass rush is always ineffective against elite QB's.

[Don Otreply]

On 6/5/2023 at 7:32 PM, pennstate10 said:

It’s not a philosophy, it’s simply physics and physiology. 
 

DL is the most tiring position to play. 
 

Since the 90s Cowboys introduced the concept of rotating DL, all good NFL teams have done this.  You don’t see heavy rotation of LB or DB, but all NFL teams rotate their DL. 
 

There are a few exceptions who might play 80-90% of snaps . Aaron Donald and Chris Jones. That’s about all I can come up with right now. 
 

But it’s not some “philosophy” unique to McD. It’s smart football. 

Yes It is smart football, but like all things it can and should be modified from game to game, I’ll just assume it is…, 

[McDeerInTheHeadlights]

B.

[Thurman#1]

On 6/5/2023 at 10:13 AM, Nextmanup said:

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

 

Please, that language you're using isn't clearly asking the correct question. It's spinning and obfuscating.

 

"If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?" Um, no. As much as possible, would be no snaps. So, no, you wouldn't keep your elite talent entirely on the bench. But that answer is the result of a poorly phrased question.

 

But if we had elite talent, would we platoon them? Yes. And it's not even a question. They've said they would, again and again. They've showed they would again and again. And Von Miller is elite talent and they platooned him.

 

The rate they'd rest them at changes, depending on age, injury status and how banged up they are, opponent, matchups and lots of other things.

 

And the majority of teams in the league platoon DLs. This isn't something unusual.

 

And McDermott has done it not sometimes or most of the time as the OP said, but all the time. The DL with the highest snap percentage in McDermott's tenure was Kyle Williams in 2017, at 68%, with Hughes at 66% the same year, and nobody else ever that high.