Is the platooning on the DL philosophical or a product of not enough great players?

[FireChans]

This is a serious question. I am a serious person.

 

We all know that for a large part of McD’s tenure here, he platoons the heck out of the DL. Philosophically, in certain areas, it makes sense. LoRax was old, use him a little less. The young guys need reps, let them get involved. 

 

But I have to wonder if that’s really what they WANT to do all the time. Do they want Oliver playing 60% of the snaps or would they prefer him at 80% because he’s playing so well there’s no reason to take him off the field?

 

For the record, I don’t think this has anything to do with “over emphasizing defense” or whatever. I don’t think the Bills have been egregiously one sided in investments. 
 

But I do wonder if the platoon of AJE, Boogie, Greg, Oliver etc etc etc over the years is just what this team wants to do, or if it’s more that a lot of those guys haven’t given the coaches enough of a reason to leave them out there longer.

 

For me, the answer is probably “a little of both” but in light of the Floyd signing, I think it’s a worthy topic.

Edited June 5, 2023 by FireChans

[mjt328]

The Bills definitely rotate the Defensive Line more than most teams.  But at the same time... if a guy is playing really well, he's probably going to earn more snaps than what we are currently seeing from Ed Oliver.

 

Von Miller is easily the best D-Lineman that we've had during Sean McDermott's tenure.  He had quite a few games around 70-75% snaps.

That's quite a bit less than stud pass rushers on another team.  For example, T.J. Watt usually gets 85-90% of snaps for the Steelers.

But it's also way higher than Jerry Hughes in his last year with us, who maxed out around 60-65% snaps.

 

[hondo in seattle]

I can't remember if McD or Beane said it, but one of them once stated it was very intentional.  He said that being a DLineman is fatiguing since you're battling with full effort every play.  To keep guys fresh, you need to platoon.  

[Nextmanup]

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

[ddaryl]

Be interesting to Compare data of playing time with the other playoff teams and to see if  playoff / SB teams use a similiar or different strategy.

 

If other teams are getting farther in the playoffs using a starting DL who is on the field more often then obviously our philosophy is not working.

5 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

If we had elite talent, do you think they would be taking them off the field as much as possible?!

 

They'd be trying to find ways to get them on the field.

 

 

 

We sure do use a lot of salary cap resources on the DL... Are the players we bring in just not good enough?

Edited June 5, 2023 by ddaryl

[eSJayDee]

I think it's a combination of both.  Yes, fatigue or "hunger" comes into play, but it's an optimization thing.  You've got a great player, who the more they play, the weaker they get.  At some point, a mediocre talent playing at 100% is better than a (significantly ) better player playing at 100-x%.  If you've got 2 mediocre players, let them split time in the hopes that their increased playing time will improve their abilities.  And you don't know which is more likely to improve and of course further, there's diminishing returns on the "experience" factor as well as fatigue/"damage".

[GoBills808]

Great players stay on the field

[DrDawkinstein]

I dont have the data or old post handy, but I could swear someone went back and looked at how Carolina's DL worked when McD was DC, and IIRC they found he started similarly with a heavy rotation. But as the team was built out and they got guys in place, for example in 2016 when they went to SB50, he rotated far less.

 

I think DTs will always need to rotate. Big guys doing a LOT of work. But the DEs could find more time if they produce with more consistency (Rousseau).

[Don Otreply]

I suspect it’s both, with the idea that your guys are less beat up / healthier come the playoffs, increasing the odds they play better than your opponents…,  cough cough Frazier cough cough 😂

[BigAl2526]

It's definitely a philosophical position of McDermott.  He wants to rotate to keep players fresh.  It's not going to always be equal though.  Better players, especially those with a history of endurance and durability are going to get more reps.  Those players who produce less are going to get less playing time, as will players coming back from injury and younger players who are early in their development.

[Shaw66]

Definitely intentional.  He wants players fresh in the fourth quarter.

 

But it also has other advantages.   With eight "starters," if you will, they can mix and match in different situations.  Pass rushers, run stoppers, etc.  

 

I don't think it's a lack of possible talent.  We all see the best DTs and DEs, and they're special.  They're difference makers.  If McBeane thought they could have a better team with difference makers rather than eight good rotational guys, they'd go there.  

 

It does provide some compensation relief, because there are some positions (QB, wideout, corner) where you just can't do it by committee - you have to have stars in those positions, so that's where the compensation has to go.   

 

 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Definitely intentional.  He wants players fresh in the fourth quarter.

 

But it also has other advantages.   With eight "starters," if you will, they can mix and match in different situations.  Pass rushers, run stoppers, etc.  

 

I don't think it's a lack of possible talent.  We all see the best DTs and DEs, and they're special.  They're difference makers.  If McBeane thought they could have a better team with difference makers rather than eight good rotational guys, they'd go there.  

 

It does provide some compensation relief, because there are some positions (QB, wideout, corner) where you just can't do it by committee - you have to have stars in those positions, so that's where the compensation has to go.   

 

 

Yet the Bills are heavy spenders on the defensive line

[billsfan89]

Platooning D-line players is a way to try and wear down opposing Offensive lines and it has thus far for the Bills had a mixed impact. The Bills from 2019 to 2021 had a quantity of average to above-average players. Guys like later career Jerry Hughes and Addison were leading the charge and it worked against lesser units or banged up teams. But in the playoffs the Bills lacked that elite pass rusher to close games in big moments. 2022 they not only beefed up the middle of the DT rotation but also brought in Von as the closer which worked until he got hurt. 

[LABILLBACKER]

5 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I can't remember if McD or Beane said it, but one of them once stated it was very intentional.  He said that being a DLineman is fatiguing since you're battling with full effort every play.  To keep guys fresh, you need to platoon.  

We looked pretty gased in the 1st quarter of that Cincy game.  I understand the rationale of platooning for rest sake. But I cringe at the thought of mediocre players like Boogie, Phillips and AJ filling in the remaining 35-40%.  Now that we've upgraded our 2nd line of depth, we should be able to hold our own.

Edited June 5, 2023 by LABILLBACKER

[stuvian]

I think it's a better strategy than spending the Gross National Product of Turkey on Aaron Donald. We must get compensatory picks from our DLs who get picked up by other teams as well, no?

[ndirish1978]

Giants won a SB platooning Umenyiora, Tuck, Strahan and Kiwanuka. They just basically sprinted to the QB all day.

[JGMcD2]

A lot of teams rotate their linemen.

 

Daquan Jones snap count was highest out of all Bills DL at 61%. 
 

Quinnen Williams was highest out of all Jets DL at 60%.

 

There are a handful that have multiple guys play 80%… JAX, ARI, WAS, NYG, CIN and MÍA had 2+ guys at 80%. 
 

The hyper fixation on here about the defensive line rotation is weird. 

[NickelCity]

Philosophical. But I don't agree with it. 

[HardyBoy]

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We looked pretty gased in the 1st quarter of that Cincy game.  I understand the rationale of platooning for rest sake. But I cringe at the thought of mediocre players like Boogie, Phillips and AJ filling in the remaining 35-40%.  Now that we've upgraded our 2nd line of depth, we should be able to hold our own.

 

Fair, but I think you need to take into account, mediocre at what? Situational football and all and certain players might be overall mediocre, but above mediocre at certain situations.

 

That Ed Oliver comment on understanding situational football, in my mind is a huge compliment and not an incitement...what is josh allen working on?...exactly.

 

Ed Oliver can play across situations, now the coaching staff is challenging him to know which physical skills to use in a given situation...but bringing it back to this point...coaching is the same way. You have players that in general maybe are mediocre, but in certain situations can contribute significant value.

 

Also, you're keeping your stars fresh for the 4th quarter, but also for the full season. I think this is as much a philosophy as it is the application of sports science...in my mind this isn't some theory of McD, but something backed by scientific reasoning...irony is it might cost you a game to win a more important game and a single game might be the difference between the 1 seed and the 2 seed.

 

This year though, with how wild hard the schedule is, screw trying to get the top seed, they need to focus only on winning the division and having the best season long output is more impetant than any individual game for that goal imo.

[pennstate10]

It’s not a philosophy, it’s simply physics and physiology. 
 

DL is the most tiring position to play. 
 

Since the 90s Cowboys introduced the concept of rotating DL, all good NFL teams have done this.  You don’t see heavy rotation of LB or DB, but all NFL teams rotate their DL. 
 

There are a few exceptions who might play 80-90% of snaps . Aaron Donald and Chris Jones. That’s about all I can come up with right now. 
 

But it’s not some “philosophy” unique to McD. It’s smart football.