Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[Don Otreply]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, injury's with him are a valid concern. I will add that other players have had injury issues before coming to Buffalo and the excellent facilities and staff have helped some of them lessen the frequency.  Gaines, Brown, Johnson, Poyer, etc to name a few.  No guarantees of course, but Harty is still a better football player.  

 

Here you go again, lumping me into Crowder stuff.  Go check my history, during training camp I said Crowder is the best slot guy on the roster in camp last year IF he can stay healthy.  I had no preconceived notions that he was going to for sure stay healthy.  And in fact, if you go back to preseason, I was very anti-McKenzie as a starter and thought Shakir would emerge as the starter by end of season because I felt an injury to Crowder at some point would open up that door.

 

Big difference though, is Harty is not coming in to have a heavy role like a starting slot WR that they hoped Crowder could handle.  So if Harty goes down, its not the end of the world for the offense like when Crowder got hurt and we got stuck with McKenzie as the starter by default who sucked.  

 

Hard disagree on Sherfield = Kumerow 2.0.  I have followed this kid since he was in SF, he flat out beat out Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo by outplaying them both all camp and preseason, but then was told he wouldn't start or play much because they had too much invested in those other guys and they wanted to see them play.  Not saying Sherfield is some future pro-bowler, but Kumerow is not a regular contributor in the NFL as a WR.

 

You tend to cherry pick a play or two you don't like and then project that over a players whole career.  I have seen Diggs drop TD passes too, but it didn't define him, so why do you focus so hard on one or two plays as if those completely define that player and ignore the other attributes they bring to the table?

 

 

 

 

Bado being Bado, he is generally not enthusiastic about most personnel acquisitions, it’s kinda how he is in his posts, with the occasional glimmers of actual enthusiasm mixed in, 

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't disagree that Hopkins would do all that, as I have stated many times over, I would love to get Hopkins here.  All I am saying is that I feel better about the offense around Josh right now than I did about the offense around him in the Bengals game.  

 

And, to be honest, I am not counting on them to be much more than they have been.  Diggs, Davis, and Knox are still here, they are going to have the biggest roles in this offense still.  Sherfield doesn't have to be more than he has been in the past, he just has to be more than Kumerow which isn't much.  Harty doesn't even have to give us more than McKenzie, because the slot position is gonna be handled by Shakir, Kincaid, and probably some Harty.  So Harty doesn't have to do much more than he has.  

 

You see that is the point...this notion they have to be a lot more than they have or the rookie has to have some huge season is just the wrong way to look at it.  We need to be collectively better as an offense, and that means better OL protection, getting more out of our RB's, as well as mixing in the new with the old in terms of the weapons around Josh.  

 

That is why I am not concerned on if we get Hopkins or not, there is enough talent on this football team to play as a unit on the field for this offense to once again be the #1 offense in the NFL.  Over the last 3 seasons, this offense is the 2nd highest scoring offense in the NFL to KC by only 5 total points.  Not to mention we are 2-1 against them the last 2 seasons and should be 3-0 if not for an inept defensive meltdown in the playoffs.  

 

Meanwhile, our defense has literally crapped the bed in every post season loss we have had in the Allen era. 

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

[Solomon Grundy]

50 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I mean if you add Hopkins, its still all on Josh to read the defenses and make the plays to get him the ball.  

 

I honestly don't think we will need to rely on Allen to do everything this year, with or without Hopkins.  The biggest issue last year was OL protection, that has been upgraded as has the RB's and weapons around Josh.  

Another issue was the untimely drops. Drive sustaining drops. Rather it was Knox, Gabe, Lil Dirty. Those drive killers weren't happening when Beasley was at his best. Hopkins would be a better version of Cole

[Alphadawg7]

2 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

 

Agreed, and they need Dorsey to absolutely be better too.  Dorsey really struggled utilizing the talent on the roster last year and integrating them on the field.  But he was a rookie OC, so the hope is with a year under his belt he will better adjust this year and find ways to use the talent that is here properly.  

[Einstein's Dog]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with this.  That's why I've said for months the success of the offense will be determined by how well Dorsey uses a good collection of assets and how well Allen runs what Dorsey designs.  

 

As you've said, once you've invested in your QB, you can't expect to have Pro Bowl talent as your #2 wideout.  Oh, and by the way, and as you said, the Bills actually went after receiving talent in the first round. 

 

They don't need Hopkins to have a good offense.  They need the talent they have to do their jobs. 

But it doesn't have to be DHop or nothing.  The plan may still be to possibly put another $10M into the WR2 if necessary.   The draft is generally for the future while FA is for the present.

[GoBills808]

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Huh?  Not spend on offense?  Because we haven't signed Hopkins?  

 

We paid Allen, Diggs, and Knox butt loads of money.  They spent a lot (a first and 4th) just to get Diggs.  They just used our first round pick on a receiving weapon at TE and our 2nd round pick on an OG.  They spent money on the OL, more WR's, and then added 2 more accomplished RB's to compliment Cook and Hines. 

 

I mean most teams don't go out and pay top WR money to have 2 elite WR's, especially teams with big QB contracts.  Teams like Cincy have them because they are on rookie contracts and so is their QB.  Chargers did it because their QB was on a rookie deal and Allen will gone by the time they pay Justin.  Miami paid Hill cuz Tua was on a rookie deal and so is Waddle.  

 

Let me ask you this...can you name one team who is paying top tier money to a QB and a WR1 who went out and signed another WR1 opposite him for top tier money too?  

 

I mean no disrespect at all, but this notion we arent spending or investing in the offense just isn't accurate and not reflective of what the Bills have done or what other teams have done in the same situations.  

I mean there aren't many teams that fit that exact scenario

 

But in terms of cap$$ spent on offense Bills spend less than contenders like Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals etc

 

 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

are you quoting from msn or is this you? 
 

And who exactly is saying Cupp is potentially available at msn?

Blockbuster Bills Trade Proposal Ships Aging All-Pro WR to Buffalo

Story by Nathan Dougherty • 3h ago

 

MSN story, no link

[Shaw66]

34 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But it doesn't have to be DHop or nothing.  The plan may still be to possibly put another $10M into the WR2 if necessary.   The draft is generally for the future while FA is for the present.

First they already have two first round picks invested in receivers - Diggs and Kincaid.   And who is this $10 million man?  The only receiver who is going to be a serious upgrade over Davis is a true #1.  Who is that, and can you get him for $10 million?

[BillsFanForever19]

For the millionth time, you can have all the concerns you want regarding Harty's injury history. But it doesn't change the fact that Beane evaluated him and assumed that risk. 

 

He didn't target him on Day 1 of Free Agency and sign him to a 2 year deal thinking he can't rely on him.

 

Many of you may have wanted Davis outright replaced, but that was never in the cards. The plan was always to give him another hopefully healthy season, but also bring in more weapons for Josh and competition/insurance in the event Davis doesn't progress or regresses. That's why he signed Harty and Drafted Kincaid.

 

If Davis continues to underperform (or even if he doesn't), some of his targets are going to go Kincaid, Knox, and/or Harty's way.

 

If there are injuries in Training Camp, Pre-Season, or Mid Season - Beane will act accordingly. But he made moves for 4 different pass catching weapons this offseason. We already have 6 WR's who are locks for the 53.

 

Beane's lack of urgency on Hopkins clearly says he likes what he's done and is comfortable with what he has. You can poke holes in the players he's brought in all you want. But that's what he chose to go with and he's not going to keep bringing in guys in because you don't think they're good enough.

Edited July 15, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Alphadawg7]

52 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean there aren't many teams that fit that exact scenario

 

But in terms of cap$$ spent on offense Bills spend less than contenders like Chiefs, Ravens, Bengals etc

 

 

Bengals have all their top 3 players of Burrow, Chase and Higgins on rookie deals, how are they spending more than us?  That’s not even comparable.  
 

KC got rid of Hill rather than pay him, and filled his spot with mediocre players.  
 

Ravens have deprived Lamar of weapons his whole career and now just paid OBJ less than we pay Diggs.  
 

Sorry, not picking on you, but none of this is accurate either.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Bengals have all their top 3 players of Burrow, Chase and Higgins on rookie deals, how are they spending more than us?  That’s not even comparable.  
 

KC got rid of Hill rather than pay him, and filled his spot with mediocre players.  
 

Ravens have deprived Lamar of weapons his whole career and now just paid OBJ less than we pay Diggs.  
 

Sorry, not picking on you, but none of this is accurate either.  

I dunno I was just browsing this

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

It may not be accurate but I thought it was interesting if true

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

Many of you may have wanted Davis outright replaced, but that was never in the cards.

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

Well, just to quibble, pursuing OBJ and DHop is not about his "wanting" to replace Davis. He wants to upgrade every position, and he's said that whenever talent may be available that would be an upgrade, he will pursue it if he can.  

 

That's different from Beane thinking he needs to replace Davis.  

 

[BillsFanForever19]

On 7/14/2023 at 10:53 PM, HappyDays said:

 

Sure it was. Beane openly pursued OBJ at the end of last season and in free agency. He tried to trade for Hopkins, then made him an offer in free agency. Beane wants Davis to be "outright replaced." He just hasn't closed the deal.

 

He pursued OBJ and now Hopkins, half heartedly. He was only interested in OBJ (and now Hopkins as well) at a low risk, low priced, potentially high reward investment to add to the weapons we have. 

 

When OBJ couldn't be gotten at a bargain, he was no longer interested. And if Hopkins doesn't want to come at a bargain, he won't be coming here either. At a bargain price, they're not guaranteed to get more reps than Davis.

 

His pursuit of these two does not scream urgency and fear for Davis. It screams due diligence and wanting to add some more weapons into the rotation, if he can get them at a bargain. Not necessarily outright replace. And he's since Drafted Kincaid and signed Harty. So the urgency is even less now.

 

Trying to get either "at the right price" is not the move of someone who is panicking and desiring of outright replacing Davis. If it was of the importance to him you believe it to be, he'd have paid the price they're asking for without hesitation. 

 

This idea that he's stressing it and a move is going to happen, he just hasn't closed the deal yet, seems to me to be more of wishful thinking from select fans than actual reality. Especially after the moves he's made this offseason.

Edited July 16, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[LABILLBACKER]

33 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I dunno I was just browsing this

 

https://overthecap.com/positional-spending

 

It may not be accurate but I thought it was interesting if true

Nothing shocking here. Since Josh's rookie year the Bills have spent more on defense 6 straight years. 

[GoBills808]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Nothing shocking here. Since Josh's rookie year the Bills have spent more on defense 6 straight years. 

Yup second in the league in defensive spending

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Like I said, injury's with him are a valid concern. I will add that other players have had injury issues before coming to Buffalo and the excellent facilities and staff have helped some of them lessen the frequency.  Gaines, Brown, Johnson, Poyer, etc to name a few.  No guarantees of course, but Harty is still a better football player.  

 

Here you go again, lumping me into Crowder stuff.  Go check my history, during training camp I said Crowder is the best slot guy on the roster in camp last year IF he can stay healthy.  I had no preconceived notions that he was going to for sure stay healthy.  And in fact, if you go back to preseason, I was very anti-McKenzie as a starter and thought Shakir would emerge as the starter by end of season because I felt an injury to Crowder at some point would open up that door.

 

Big difference though, is Harty is not coming in to have a heavy role like a starting slot WR that they hoped Crowder could handle.  So if Harty goes down, its not the end of the world for the offense like when Crowder got hurt and we got stuck with McKenzie as the starter by default who sucked.  

 

Hard disagree on Sherfield = Kumerow 2.0.  I have followed this kid since he was in SF, he flat out beat out Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo by outplaying them both all camp and preseason, but then was told he wouldn't start or play much because they had too much invested in those other guys and they wanted to see them play.  Not saying Sherfield is some future pro-bowler, but Kumerow is not a regular contributor in the NFL as a WR.

 

You tend to cherry pick a play or two you don't like and then project that over a players whole career.  I have seen Diggs drop TD passes too, but it didn't define him, so why do you focus so hard on one or two plays as if those completely define that player and ignore the other attributes they bring to the table?

 

 

 

 

 

 

My contention with the points you are trying to make is the absurd hyperbole.

 

If you are saying Sherfield is better than Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo Samuel then you are, in fact, saying he is "some future pro-bowler".    Because those dudes are legit studs........arguably the top 2 options on the team with the most offensive weapons around their QB in the NFL.   Absurd take.    Sherfield has averaged less than 200 yards per season in his career.

 

And you need perspective on offseason/summer evaluations.   Nobody outperformed Jake Kumerow in Bills camp in 2021.   He was absolutely killing it.   When the real games started he couldn't get on the field because real NFL games are a lot different than camp and preseason.    

 

Could Shakir be much improved this season?  Sure.  It's a maybe that you declare is a FACT just because of experience.   That's ignorance.  Plenty of receivers don't get better in year 2.  Here are a couple notable Bills examples:

 

1) Robert Foster 540 yards receiving as a rookie.......just 60 total yards in year 2 in the same amount of games.

 

2) Josh Reed......looked like a future All Pro as a rookie........catch % dropped 7% and yards per target dropped precipitously from 8.6 to 5.7......and he remained a JAG the rest of his career.

 

 You are confusing your HOPE with fact...........we all hope these guys exceed their production of last season and their careers..........but history tells us very few, if any, will.

[Alphadawg7]

43 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

My contention with the points you are trying to make is the absurd hyperbole.

 

If you are saying Sherfield is better than Brandon Aiyuk and Deebo Samuel then you are, in fact, saying he is "some future pro-bowler".    Because those dudes are legit studs........arguably the top 2 options on the team with the most offensive weapons around their QB in the NFL.   Absurd take.    Sherfield has averaged less than 200 yards per season in his career.

 

And you need perspective on offseason/summer evaluations.   Nobody outperformed Jake Kumerow in Bills camp in 2021.   He was absolutely killing it.   When the real games started he couldn't get on the field because real NFL games are a lot different than camp and preseason.    

 

Could Shakir be much improved this season?  Sure.  It's a maybe that you declare is a FACT just because of experience.   That's ignorance.  Plenty of receivers don't get better in year 2.  Here are a couple notable Bills examples:

 

1) Robert Foster 540 yards receiving as a rookie.......just 60 total yards in year 2 in the same amount of games.

 

2) Josh Reed......looked like a future All Pro as a rookie........catch % dropped 7% and yards per target dropped precipitously from 8.6 to 5.7......and he remained a JAG the rest of his career.

 

 You are confusing your HOPE with fact...........we all hope these guys exceed their production of last season and their careers..........but history tells us very few, if any, will.

I didn’t say Sherfield was better than Brandon or Deebo, I said when they were rookies he beat them out decisively and still wasn’t given a chance to play because they just invested high draft picks in the other two.  Coaches literally told him he deserves to start but the call came down he won’t be as they want to look at the other guys who they used high picks on.  
 

My issue with the arguments you’re making is that you don’t actually know anything about these players  beyond googling stats, and that is the issue I originally brought up.  Stat sheets alone lack context.  if you actually dig into the player, their story, abilities, weaknesses, tape, etc you will know a lot more about them to make more informed opinions on who they are as a player and how they might fit into the team taking over someone else’s role who is now gone.

 

Foster got in the doghouse and didn’t see the field.  That’s why he didn’t do anything in his 2nd year.  
 

Lol, no one thought Josh Reed was a future pro bowler after his rookie year 😂😂😂 And if they did, maybe they should stop drinking while making evaluations.  That honestly might be the most ridiculous comment I’ve read in a while lol.  
 

Sherfield is without question a better WR than Kumerow.  In SF he was behind Deebo and Aiyuk…in Miami behind Hill and Waddle.  He’s found ways to contribute even behind pro bowl level players.   Kumerow can’t even get on the field on teams who needed WR help.  In GB, Rodgers loved him and he still couldn’t get on the field.  In a pass happy offense in Buffalo, he couldn’t get on the field even when there were injuries or struggles by other WRs.  So the coaches on every team Kumerow has been on don’t seem to think much of him as a WR, so I’ll trust their opinions and what I have seen from him rather than you just saying otherwise for the sake of complaining about Sherfield.  

Edited July 15, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Einstein's Dog]

14 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

First they already have two first round picks invested in receivers - Diggs and Kincaid.   And who is this $10 million man?  The only receiver who is going to be a serious upgrade over Davis is a true #1.  Who is that, and can you get him for $10 million?

To get an upgrade in the $10M budget range it looks like the Bills FO may need to wait for an in-season move.

 

If a team starts poorly and goes into rebuild mode then a trade is possible.  

 

Candidates include:  my favorite M Evans (root for Tampa to lose early), Jeudy, M Thomas, one of the Raiders WRs Renfro.  Maybe A Thielen - although he just signed.  T Lockett is another.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

To get an upgrade in the $10M budget range it looks like the Bills FO may need to wait for an in-season move.

 

If a team starts poorly and goes into rebuild mode then a trade is possible.  

 

Candidates include:  my favorite M Evans (root for Tampa to lose early), Jeudy, M Thomas, one of the Raiders WRs Renfro.  Maybe A Thielen - although he just signed.  T Lockett is another.

Definitely Evans, maybe Thomas, maybe Lockett.  I don't see the others as major upgrades.