Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[TheBeaneBandit]

5 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

The only one who is better than Josh right now is Mahomes. Maybe you can make a case for Burrow, but I think Allen is the better overall athlete. Herbert, Lawrence, Hurts are all up there but I don't think any of them are better than Allen.

Burrow is hands down a better pure passer and it's not even close. He drops it in the basket extremely consistent while Allen is once in a while when it comes to those throws.

[PetermansRedemption]

5 hours ago, Success said:

If Hopkins DOES go to the Pats - I would not take that team lightly.  Their D is legit, and the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because the O was so bad.  

 

O'Brien will impact that, and signing Hopkins could make that offense above average. Which is all they need to be.

 

Patriots are a complete non-factor. Distant 4th in this division. 

[buffblue]

6 hours ago, Success said:

If Hopkins DOES go to the Pats - I would not take that team lightly.  Their D is legit, and the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because the O was so bad.  

 

O'Brien will impact that, and signing Hopkins could make that offense above average. Which is all they need to be.

 

Not taking them lightly, but Mac Jones makes them clearly the favorite to finish last, with or without Hopkins, given the strength of the rest of the division 

[BillsFanForever19]

Obviously, when he was talking about the QB's he wanted to play with - he was talking about them in the sense that their front office was also paying him the most amount of money available.

 

Ryan Tannehill/Will Levis and Mac Jones are a FAR cry from the caliber of guys he talked about all offseason.

Edited June 10, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Doc Brown]

9 hours ago, Success said:

If Hopkins DOES go to the Pats - I would not take that team lightly.  Their D is legit, and the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because the O was so bad.  

 

O'Brien will impact that, and signing Hopkins could make that offense above average. Which is all they need to be.

 

If Hopkins helps them beat the Dolphins and the Jets it could be a blessing in disguise.

4 hours ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Burrow is hands down a better pure passer and it's not even close. He drops it in the basket extremely consistent while Allen is once in a while when it comes to those throws.

I wouldn't say once in a while but Burrow is more accurate, throws with better touch, and processes information quicker than Allen.  Allen has a stronger arm, is obviously a better scrambler, and is the best in the league at making off script plays imo.  

[BillsFanForever19]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:25 PM, HappyDays said:

 

If it helps to understand our position - the fascination is not with Hopkins specifically, it is with upgrading Gabe Davis as the WR2. Hopkins just happens to be the one available player that would do that. If for example we had Tee Higgins or Devonta Smith on the team this would be a dead topic. Many of us simply aren't comfortable relying on Davis to once again be the #2 target share in this passing offense which is what he currently projects to be.

 

What about Hopkins' recent actions shows him to be the opposite of what we need? Von Miller required a $100 million contract to sign here. So I assume you think he is also not the kind of player we should have signed?

 

That's because you and others are focusing too hard on the technical labels of position. "WR2" doesn't mean he's definitely going to be the "#2 Target Share of the Passing Game". And it actually doesn't even mean he's WR2. He's just Outside WR 2. On many teams, the Slot WR is Option 1 or 2.

 

Who is the "#1 Target Share of the Passing Game" in Kansas City? Travis Kelce. What's his technical listed position? TE. What position does he actually play? Slot WR.

 

We traded up in the 1st Round to Draft a player that our analytics guy's metrics had as the best pure hands regardless of position in the past EIGHT Drafts. Yes, he's technically a TE. But he's a big slot WR and that's what he'll be playing here. Dalton Kincaid is a TE like Von Miller and Leonard Floyd are LB's.

 

Deonte Harty had 1 opportunity where he was called into actual action outside of being a KR, in 2021 because of injuries. In a limited role with an average QB, he hauled in 36 catches for 570 yards and showed untapped potential as a deep threat with great speed and elusiveness. This led to him having a market as teams saw him as a potential star if given more opportunities and us handing him a 2 year, 9.5m dollar contract. 

 

 

In conjunction with players like Dawson Knox, Khalil Shakir in Year 2, Trent Sherfield coming off a good year as a #3 WR (and being asked to do even less here), and pass catching RB's like James Cook and Nyheim Hines - our passing game has many options outside of Stefon Diggs and Gabe Davis. This has led to NFL.com ranking us as the #3 Offense in the NFL: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-s-top-10-offenses-in-2023-bills-chiefs-eagles-produce-highest-win-share-proj

 

Long story short, this idea that we need to worry about Gabe Davis being our #2 is EXTREMELY overblown. WR isn't the only pass catching option on the field and Gabe Davis isn't the only WR we have outside of Diggs. And him being the technical #2 Outside WR doesn't mean he's going to be Josh's #2 pass catching option.

 

With the investments we made in Kincaid, Harty, and others with what we already had in house, Beane has provided weaponry that takes pressure off of both Diggs and Davis, as well as insurance in the event that Davis didn't just have an injury ridden, bad 1st year as a Starter. 

 

This is why DeAndre Hopkins, while it would be nice to have him, isn't the must have you and other posters make him out to be. He's a luxury at this point and that's why there isn't the urgency or need to get him at all costs from Beane. If he chooses to come here at our price, wonderful. If he doesn't, we still have a loaded Offense ranked Top 5 in the league.

Edited June 10, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

That's because you and others are focusing too hard on the technical labels of position. "WR2" doesn't mean he's definitely going to be the "#2 Target Share of the Passing Game". And it actually doesn't even mean he's WR2. He's just Outside WR 2. On many teams, the Slot WR is Option 1 or 2.

 

Who is the "#1 Target Share of the Passing Game" in Kansas City? Travis Kelce. What's his technical listed position? TE. What position does he actually play? Slot WR.

 

We traded up in the 1st Round to Draft a player that our analytics guy's metrics had as the best pure hands regardless of position in the past EIGHT Drafts. Yes, he's technically a TE. But he's a big slot WR and that's what he'll be playing here. Dalton Kincaid is a TE like Von Miller and Leonard Floyd are LB's.

 

I am as hopeful as anyone about Kincaid's impact as a rookie. I still think it is a lot to expect him to immediately be the #2 target in the offense. If he has the impact you suggest then yes I will be more comfortable with Davis as the #3 target. But I would rather go into the season without relying on a rookie to be the only thing stopping Davis from being the #2. It's a big risk that signing Hopkins immediately takes care of.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

That's because you and others are focusing too hard on the technical labels of position. "WR2" doesn't mean he's definitely going to be the "#2 Target Share of the Passing Game". And it actually doesn't even mean he's WR2. He's just Outside WR 2. On many teams, the Slot WR is Option 1 or 2.

 

 

 

 

Gabriel Davis had almost 50% more passes thrown his way than the 3rd most targeted receiving option for the Bills last year.    By ANY definition he was the second option in the Bills passing game.    I think you are clearly the one who is confused about labels.

 

 

 

 

[Coach Tuesday]

39 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

I think you are clearly the one who is confused about labels.

 

 

 

 

 

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

You are assuming a couple JAGs/injury prone receivers in Harty/Sheffield stay healthy or overproduce what they’ve shown and Kincaid as a rookie TE, performs at a high level as a slot receiver…. I think it’s asking a lot, but sure, it’s possible….. you don’t have to worry about those “what if’s” if you sign Hopkins. 
 

I do think Shakir improves. 

 

I love how everyone who was added or is expected to get a bigger role is discounted as nothing to justify the urgency that Beane should have for every posters "i've heard of him" shiny toy.

 

Dalton Kincaid (traded up for and selected in Round 1, getting rave reviews in OTA's) - "Can't rely on a Rookie"

Deonte Harty (had 1 season being used as a WR regularly and showed potential) - "Hasn't done anything most of his career, injury prone, never heard of him"

Khalil Shakir (showed a lot of promise as an underused Rookie) - "Didn't impress me as a Rookie"

Trent Sherfield (coming off his best season as a solid #3 in Miami) - "Just a guy, never heard of him"

 

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

I am as hopeful as anyone about Kincaid's impact as a rookie. I still think it is a lot to expect him to immediately be the #2 target in the offense. If he has the impact you suggest then yes I will be more comfortable with Davis as the #3 target. But I would rather go into the season without relying on a rookie to be the only thing stopping Davis from being the #2. It's a big risk that signing Hopkins immediately takes care of.

 

It's not just Kincaid though. We signed Harty to a larger than expected contract as a deep threat and insurance for Davis. And then he traded up to Draft Kincaid to provide further insurance. Sherfield, a bonified #3 that Miami players were very upset to see go, was also added. Shakir showed promise as a Rookie and McBeane have gone on record to say he'll get more opportunities in Year 2. And that's on top of having Diggs on the other side, Knox at TE, and Cook and Hines as pass catching Backs. 

 

Fans may have trepidations about who's a sure thing in their eyes and who isn't. But these are the moves that Beane made. He didn't trade up in Round 1 for a guy that he felt wasn't ready. He didn't give Harty a 10 million dollar, 2 year contract thinking "he's unproven". Both guys were brought in to play roles and quite possibly big ones.

 

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Gabriel Davis had almost 50% more passes thrown his way than the 3rd most targeted receiving option for the Bills last year.    By ANY definition he was the second option in the Bills passing game.    I think you are clearly the one who is confused about labels.

 

 

 

 

 

.... no one was talking about last year.

Edited June 11, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Coach Tuesday]

2 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I love how everyone who was added or is expected to get a bigger role is discounted as nothing to justify the urgency that Beane should have for every posters "i've heard of him" shiny toy.

I’ve read this ten times and I cannot discern its meaning.

[BADOLBILZ]

14 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

 

I literally saw someone in WNY do that to their property a few years ago........but with spray paint.

 

@BillsFanForever19 likes to keep the goal posts moving.    We all hope Kincaid becomes a 100+ target option and catches 70% of those targets.........basically playing like a seasoned veteran, top 10 kinda' #2 option.

 

But no Bills 1st round rookie has hit the ground running and produced all season from start to finish like that since Tre White.........and before that you probably have to go back to Lee Evans in 2004 to find a Bills 1st rounder who had a BETTER year than the kind of season Gabe Davis did last year(when he was a disappointment as WR2).    It's a big ask from a SB contending team facing probably their toughest schedule to date.

[BillsFanForever19]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

@BillsFanForever19 likes to keep the goal posts moving.    We all hope Kincaid becomes a 100+ target option and catches 70% of those targets.........basically playing like a seasoned veteran, top 10 kinda' #2 option.

 

How am I moving the goal posts here? I was replying to HappyDays saying "Many of us simply aren't comfortable relying on Davis to once again be the #2 target share in this passing offense which is what he currently projects to be" by saying that he already might not be that. Nothing he or I said had anything to do with last year.

 

You just like to argue things that have little to nothing to do with what i'm talking about and then say i'm "moving the goal posts" when I explain what you're saying doesn't even fit the conversation.

 

1 hour ago, Coach Tuesday said:

I’ve read this ten times and I cannot discern its meaning.

 

I'm saying that Hopkins is the shiny toy everyone wants because they've "heard of him" and all the moves Beane has made and the players who have already been stated to get more reps are sh-t on and discounted to be worthless players by posters who want to justify that Hopkins is a need and not just a want.

Edited June 11, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[billsbackto81]

On 6/9/2023 at 2:48 PM, Success said:

If Hopkins DOES go to the Pats - I would not take that team lightly.  Their D is legit, and the only reason they didn't make the playoffs was because the O was so bad.  

 

O'Brien will impact that, and signing Hopkins could make that offense above average. Which is all they need to be.

 

Past history has shown us that the Bills match up much better against the Pats than the Fins or Jets. 

 

With their schedule I see no way the Pats finish better than 4th in the AFCE and if they do it won't be over Buffalo.

[HappyDays]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

We signed Harty to a larger than expected contract as a deep threat and insurance for Davis. And then he traded up to Draft Kincaid to provide further insurance. Sherfield, a bonified #3 that Miami players were very upset to see go, was also added. Shakir showed promise as a Rookie and McBeane have gone on record to say he'll get more opportunities in Year 2

 

Kincaid is the only one of these that has a realistic chance of being the #2 target. I think you know this.

[BillsFanForever19]

34 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Kincaid is the only one of these that has a realistic chance of being the #2 target. I think you know this.

 

He is the most realistic chance. But Harty's contract raised a lot of fans eyebrows. And looking into him and the contract he was given, it's pretty clear that us and other teams looked at his 2021 campaign and saw a player that in his first and only opportunity to get any sort of reps as a WR instead of just a KR - proved to be a fairly consistent deep threat on an average offense with an average QB. 

 

Is it likely that Harty will become a Superstar? I wouldn't say for sure he will. But with Josh Allen throwing him the ball instead of Jameis Winston on an offense with the other playmakers we have? I don't think you can say there is no chance. And I think fans that are completely writing him off as a nothing signing are misinformed or wanting to discount him because they'd rather have a shinier toy.

Edited June 11, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[HappyDays]

10 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

He is the most realistic chance. But Harty's contract raised a lot of fans eyebrows. And looking into him and the contract he was given, it's pretty clear that us and other teams looked at his 2021 campaign and saw a player that in his first and only opportunity to get any sort of reps as a WR instead of just a KR - proved to be a fairly consistent deep threat on an average offense with an average QB. 

 

Is it likely that Harty will become a Superstar? I wouldn't say for sure he will. But with Josh Allen throwing him the ball instead of Jameis Winston on an offense with the other playmakers we have? I don't think you can say there is no chance. And I think fans that are completely writing him off as a nothing signing are misinformed or wanting to discount him because they'd rather have a shinier toy.

 

Harty is not going to get the 2nd most passing targets. Come on now. If he makes it through the whole year healthy that would be a great outcome.

[Richard Noggin]

25 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Harty is not going to get the 2nd most passing targets. Come on now. If he makes it through the whole year healthy that would be a great outcome.

 

Totally fair.

 

Now, if he does in fact remain healthy all year, THEN what do we think the floor and ceiling are for reasonable expectations? 

[Starr Almighty]

1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

He is the most realistic chance. But Harty's contract raised a lot of fans eyebrows. And looking into him and the contract he was given, it's pretty clear that us and other teams looked at his 2021 campaign and saw a player that in his first and only opportunity to get any sort of reps as a WR instead of just a KR - proved to be a fairly consistent deep threat on an average offense with an average QB. 

 

Is it likely that Harty will become a Superstar? I wouldn't say for sure he will. But with Josh Allen throwing him the ball instead of Jameis Winston on an offense with the other playmakers we have? I don't think you can say there is no chance. And I think fans that are completely writing him off as a nothing signing are misinformed or wanting to discount him because they'd rather have a shinier toy.

If both Harty and Hopkins were on the Bills this upcoming season. Who would have better stats? 

 

I know for a fact 1 guy will perform. The other is an unknown. I don't want shiny. I want a known commodity.

[BillsFanForever19]

2 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Harty is not going to get the 2nd most passing targets. Come on now. If he makes it through the whole year healthy that would be a great outcome.

 

In targets? No, probably not. But if he proves to be a consistent speed deep threat for Josh, it's not completely insane to think he'd surpass Davis in yardage. And if that role comes to fruition in conjunction with Knox and Kincaid and Diggs as WR1 - Davis could become more of an afterthought anyways. Harty may or may not be a guy to step over Davis if he begins to faulter. But the way he's a complete and total nothing and an afterthought to you and other posters isn't fair. He's a player that Beane targeted in the 1st Wave of Free Agency and one of the few players he actually paid some money for outside of the minimum. He didn't do that to be completely buried on the Depth Chart and with fears of what he brings to the table.

 

Between him and Dalton and then Trent and Shorter on the bottom of the depth chart with what we already have, he's done a lot and built his pass catching core the way he liked. That's why we're not going balls to the wall for Hopkins. He isn't the need here that he is on most other teams.

 

42 minutes ago, Starr Almighty said:

If both Harty and Hopkins were on the Bills this upcoming season. Who would have better stats? 

 

I know for a fact 1 guy will perform. The other is an unknown. I don't want shiny. I want a known commodity.

 

That's fine that's what you want. But, again, the fact is that Beane targeted him very early in Free Agency is one of the select few he actually paid some money for. He didn't do that thinking "not a known commodity".

 

4 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I know we signed/have all these guys… those said guys have either amounted to little to nothing to inconsistent in their careers or are rookies…. Hence the reason many of us aren’t confident they are good enough for a team with SB aspirations. 

 

You point to contract numbers as if it means they are good players. 😅

 

It means that Beane thinks he is a player worth acquiring and paying that for. Whether or not you think he was worth it or is a good player is a mute point.