Hopkins released by Arizona (7/16: signed by Titans)

[Warcodered]

 

[russ t. nail]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

No. They weren't. 

A bunch of people have already said this, but I’m hoping more people doing it helps you see you’re wrong about this. Aside from you apparently, everyone else was saying that Reid was an offensive guru. The knock was Reid couldn’t win the big game, and there were some game management questions. But those offenses with McNabb and Westbrook were so fun. And when he did what he did with Alex smith it only made his offensive genius tag more pronounced. I don’t know what you were watching or reading at the time but he was definitely considered an offensive genius. And rightfully so.

[Alphadawg7]

7 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

That overly dramatic Tweet by Wawrow reminds me of his infamous antics on here announcing his departure.

I'll be rooting for Hopkins more than ever. Would love to see Beane put Johnny 🤡 in his place  

You have this unreal level of denial of anything that suggests he might not sign here.

 

I would love to see Hopkins here, but it’s just not gonna happen unless he plays for peanuts compared to what he was making and reportedly wants.  Especially after signing Floyd and extending Ed.  

[DCofNC]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

You have this unreal level of denial of anything that suggests he might not sign here.

 

I would love to see Hopkins here, but it’s just not gonna happen unless he plays for peanuts compared to what he was making and reportedly wants.  Especially after signing Floyd and extending Ed.  

So excited to keep and sign more rotational DL, can’t have enough money wasted there.  WRs are a dime a dozen as we all know, Bean just wizarding again.

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

There are a ton of ways to win in the NFL. Last year the Chiefs won a SB with their WR2 being who, exactly?

 

 

I think you are referring to Juju Smith Shuster as the #2 target behind Kelce?    Juju had 97 catches in 2020 and was only 26 years old in 2022 with a 1400 yard season also on his resume.    That is a lot different than having a never-was journeyman like Lil' Dummy and the perennially injured and washed up flyer veteran signing Jamison Crowder in the slot.   The Chiefs also had two talented young WR selected in the 1st and 2nd rounds of the previous 2 drafts in addition to their Gabe Davis production clone  Marquez Valdes Scantling.   It wasn't the best WR corps in the NFL but their receiving group, counting Kelce of course, was A LOT deeper and talented than that of the Bills. 

[Richard Noggin]

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

I think it’s clear they still really like Gabe Davis. I also think they are wrong, have developed a blind spot for the position, and Gabe Davis is not a sufficient #2 WR.

 

I agree with #1 for sure, #2 maybe a little, and #3 for sure based on 2022 on-field issues/inconsistencies.  

 

The difficulty in this debate, to paraphrase one of my favorite late-20th century US authors, is the subjectivity in: What We Talk About When We Talk About #2 WRs. Is it about an up-and-comer with all-around flashes of #1 potential? Is it about a positional (boundary) prototype of traits and skills? Or is it simply about a reliable receiving target (x, y, z, TE...whatever) who sees the 2nd most targets and produces?

 

What we're really talking about with the Bills, of course, is if Gabe Davis is an acceptable starting #2 BOUNDARY receiver. Can he effectively hurt a defense that rolls coverage to the other side, i.e., win 1-on-1s and catch the damned ball. The problem is: we've seen him succeed in spectacular ways, and we've seen him struggle in ugly ways. 

 

None of us really KNOWS how Davis will produce in 2023. 

 

But maybe someone else steps up and into the functional, statistical #2 receiving role from a different alignment/position. Was my original point. 

[DrDawkinstein]

8 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

“And we’d rather give that money to a pass rusher” 

 

Sounds more like the pass rusher was the one willing to take our money.

[Nextmanup]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:07 PM, Dick_Cheney said:

Beane will absolutely find a way to make this happen.

Or maybe not.

 

 

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

What is this hard on you have about redirecting every question about Josh to Mahomes? It's a weird obsession.  

 

 

It isn't about Mahomes specifically. Your question is absurd on the face of it. It has no value in the discussion. "Why does Josh need help?" Because every QB, ever, needs help. Super Bowls aren't won by one man shows. Allen clearly has elevated the players around him. When are his teammates going to elevate him?

 

Mahomes had a high ankle sprain and had to leave a playoff game for an entire quarter plus. He spent the rest of the playoffs hobbled and had an inexplicable no-contact fumble in a critical moment in the AFCCG. His teammates found a way to elevate him. I'm not trying to take away from his greatness, not at all, but the decision makers in KC have made it a point to build as much as possible around him first and foremost. 

 

Brady is the GOAT but had a ton of help every year that he was in New England. In 2019 the offensive talent around him fell off a cliff, his stats declined susbtantially, and they lost in the wildcard round. Everyone declared his career over. He went to the most talented roster in football in 2020, and hey what a coincidence just about every stat he had that year was better than his career average.

 

There's this widespread belief that great QBs make their receivers. The truth of course is that it goes both ways. The question isn't "why does Allen need help?" The question is why shouldn't he have as much help as he can get? What is the downside to trying to create an offense that rivals the greatest offenses in history? I can understand the argument that Hopkins is a poor fit for the Bills, past his prime, etc. but I really don't understand the argument that we should stop trying to add offensive talent just because Allen is the QB.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Wheeeeeeee

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, DCofNC said:

So excited to keep and sign more rotational DL, can’t have enough money wasted there.  WRs are a dime a dozen as we all know, Bean just wizarding again.

As usual, you just don’t get it

7 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Or maybe not.

 

 

I’m trying to figure out how he makes it happen
 

Even though we freed up money on the Oliver extension, it looks like it wasn’t near enough to entice DeAndre Hopkins

 

There are other teams in the league they can offer so much more

[Irv]

Did Hopkins get released?

[BuffaloBillyG]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

It isn't about Mahomes specifically. Your question is absurd on the face of it. It has no value in the discussion. "Why does Josh need help?" Because every QB, ever, needs help. Super Bowls aren't won by one man shows. Allen clearly has elevated the players around him. When are his teammates going to elevate him?

 

Mahomes had a high ankle sprain and had to leave a playoff game for an entire quarter plus. He spent the rest of the playoffs hobbled and had an inexplicable no-contact fumble in a critical moment in the AFCCG. His teammates found a way to elevate him. I'm not trying to take away from his greatness, not at all, but the decision makers in KC have made it a point to build as much as possible around him first and foremost. 

 

Brady is the GOAT but had a ton of help every year that he was in New England. In 2019 the offensive talent around him fell off a cliff, his stats declined susbtantially, and they lost in the wildcard round. Everyone declared his career over. He went to the most talented roster in football in 2020, and hey what a coincidence just about every stat he had that year was better than his career average.

 

There's this widespread belief that great QBs make their receivers. The truth of course is that it goes both ways. The question isn't "why does Allen need help?" The question is why shouldn't he have as much help as he can get? What is the downside to trying to create an offense that rivals the greatest offenses in history? I can understand the argument that Hopkins is a poor fit for the Bills, past his prime, etc. but I really don't understand the argument that we should stop trying to add offensive talent just because Allen is the QB.

I see a lot of valid points here.  And I agree, the question isn't so much "Why does Allen need help". Let me reword that to "Why does the offense need more help?"

 

I think it would be safe to assume we would be able to agree that the IOL was a MAJOR reason that Josh had to go above and beyond last year. The quick pressure in his face led to plays breaking down quick on multiple occasions each game. I think it would also be safe to assume we could agree that the offense got way less than it hoped from the slot position. Those areas have (at least on paper, so far) been addressed. 

 

The issue that remains for me is the one I've stated both here and in other threads. You can improve the line, the weapons...but if you have a coaching issue you're throwing good money out the window. While the offense put up good stats last year the offensive philosophy wasn't much more than "Josh, do something good". I do think Dorsey has the possibility of improvement however I would like to see how he uses all the new toys Beane gave him before investing more cap in players that won't have an impact if not used well.

 

Even dating back to last season with Hines. We got him at the trade deadline and Dorsey couldn't figure out a way to use him...despite Beane talking up how he can play multiple spots and be a difference maker. They kept saying he was "still learning the playbook". They said the same thing this off-season about him. But Dorsey couldn't scheme up anything? Doesn't give me confidence that he can utilize a guy like DHop.

 

 

[SCBills]

21 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The only significant “new toy” he brought in is Kincaid… Harty and Sherfield have proven very little in the league so I find it odd fans keep talking these guys up…. But they did the same thing last year with players like Crowder and OJ Howard.
 

And I disagree the Chiefs had less weapons than the Bills. I would’ve taken what they had last season all day over what the Bills trotted out there. 

The Chiefs comparison is exhausting.  
 

I would, every. single. day., take what the Chiefs had around Mahomes last year over what we put around Allen.  
 

Elite OL vs our bottom tier disaster class OL. 
 

THE best offensive weapon in the NFL in Travis Kelce.  
 

Did we have an edge at WR? Sure.. but after Diggs, we had bad ankle Gabe and a whole lot of nothing.  
 

The skill position talent was pretty close.. Now let’s see what Josh could’ve done with a good elbow and Mahomes OL. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The only significant “new toy” he brought in is Kincaid… Harty and Sherfield have proven very little in the league so I find it odd fans keep talking these guys up…. But they did the same thing last year with players like Crowder and OJ Howard.
 

And I disagree the Chiefs had less weapons than the Bills. I would’ve taken what they had last season all day over what the Bills trotted out there. 

Kincaid was the big new toy. I'd agree that nothing else brought it weapon wise is as big a get as that was. However, Harty and Sherfield have potential to be good role players IF Dorsey figures out a way to use them. The IOL being potentially upgraded will also help. 

 

That's the whole point though. Dorsey couldn't scheme up anything for Hines. He really didn't use McKenzie to his strength last year. Almost zero jet sweeps...just plugged him in and hoped he'd morph into Cole Beasley. Found limited ways to use Knox. 

 

So, adding DHop does...what exactly? It puts a high priced body into a position where the coaching staff doesn't adjust to player skill sets but rather tries to fit what they have into the offense they want to run. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I see a lot of valid points here.  And I agree, the question isn't so much "Why does Allen need help". Let me reword that to "Why does the offense need more help?"

 

I think it would be safe to assume we would be able to agree that the IOL was a MAJOR reason that Josh had to go above and beyond last year. The quick pressure in his face led to plays breaking down quick on multiple occasions each game. I think it would also be safe to assume we could agree that the offense got way less than it hoped from the slot position. Those areas have (at least on paper, so far) been addressed. 

 

The issue that remains for me is the one I've stated both here and in other threads. You can improve the line, the weapons...but if you have a coaching issue you're throwing good money out the window. While the offense put up good stats last year the offensive philosophy wasn't much more than "Josh, do something good". I do think Dorsey has the possibility of improvement however I would like to see how he uses all the new toys Beane gave him before investing more cap in players that won't have an impact if not used well.

 

Even dating back to last season with Hines. We got him at the trade deadline and Dorsey couldn't figure out a way to use him...despite Beane talking up how he can play multiple spots and be a difference maker. They kept saying he was "still learning the playbook". They said the same thing this off-season about him. But Dorsey couldn't scheme up anything? Doesn't give me confidence that he can utilize a guy like DHop.

 

 

 

I recommend getting the A22 from NFL+. I re-watch every week and I see plays like below over and over. Allen doesn't even look at Shakir to his right who is wide open. He could have hopscotched into the endzone. Instead he thread the needle for a tough throw to Davis. The result is a highlight reel TD. On TV we see that and think "Allen has to put the team on his back. There are only contested throws. Our WR can't get open. Dorsey sucks, why can't he scheme anything". 

 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

 

Allen is a generational talent and his talent plus moxy allows him to get away with a lot more than other less talented players in the league. But low percentage plays are still low percentage even if you are better at them than your peers. It has a tendency to stall our offense.  We just force the ball down field far too often. Josh almost never lets the ball go at the top of his drop. Sometimes he doesn't see the entire field. Sometimes he wants the bigger play and ignores the easy money. None the less a quicker release and spreading the ball out a lot more will help the run game, OL, and Diggs.

This is certainly a nuanced discussion where Dorsey, the OL, and our WR group all need to be better. But it is worth mentioning that that part of the load that Josh carries is weight he unnecessarily puts on his own shoulders. 

 

I will be hyped if we somehow navigate signing Hopkins. But we don't "neeeeeeed" Hopkins. Part of the expectation (rightfully) placed on a $40M QB is to do a lot more with a lot less than other QB's in the league. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Mango

[longtimebillsfan]

My wife and I attended game 2 of the Stanley Cup finals last night. What a game... anyway, Hopkins was in attendance cranking the air raid siren before the beginning of the 3rd period.

 

Does this mean the Raiders are in play to sign DeAndre?

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

I recommend getting the A22 from NFL+. I re-watch every week and I see plays like below over and over. Allen doesn't even look at Shakir to his right who is wide open. He could have hopscotched into the endzone. Instead he thread the needle for a tough throw to Davis. The result is a highlight reel TD. On TV we see that and think "Allen has to put the team on his back. There are only contested throws. Our WR can't get open. Dorsey sucks, why can't he scheme anything". 

 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

 

That play is a poor example of what you're referring to. That isn't a needle throw. Davis by NFL standards is wide open. As soon as Allen sees the CB in trail and the LB flat footed without enough depth it is a quick read and an easy decision. Because of where his hips are facing at the top of his drop it is in fact the easier throw then readjusting to throw to Shakir. The play works exactly as designed - Knox and Diggs create enough traffic so Davis's man loses him. If the play didn't work Allen would have turned to Shakir as his outlet but he didn't need to.

 

To your overall point - in the New England offense, which we run a variation of, the reads go long to short. I heard Chris Simms talking about this last week. He was contrasting it to the Shanahan offense where reads go short to long. Our offense is designed to read deep first. I don't necessarily disagree that we should have some more short and quick passing concepts built in but that is more of a scheme change than an Allen change.

[RochesterLifer]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

I recommend getting the A22 from NFL+. I re-watch every week and I see plays like below over and over. Allen doesn't even look at Shakir to his right who is wide open. He could have hopscotched into the endzone. Instead he thread the needle for a tough throw to Davis. The result is a highlight reel TD. On TV we see that and think "Allen has to put the team on his back. There are only contested throws. Our WR can't get open. Dorsey sucks, why can't he scheme anything". 

 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

 

Allen is a generational talent and his talent plus moxy allows him to get away with a lot more than other less talented players in the league. But low percentage plays are still low percentage even if you are better at them than your peers. It has a tendency to stall our offense.  We just force the ball down field far too often. Josh almost never lets the ball go at the top of his drop. Sometimes he doesn't see the entire field. Sometimes he wants the bigger play and ignores the easy money. None the less a quicker release and spreading the ball out a lot more will help the run game, OL, and Diggs.

This is certainly a nuanced discussion where Dorsey, the OL, and our WR group all need to be better. But it is worth mentioning that that part of the load that Josh carries is weight he unnecessarily puts on his own shoulders. 

 

I will be hyped if we somehow navigate signing Hopkins. But we don't "neeeeeeed" Hopkins. Part of the expectation (rightfully) placed on a $40M QB is to do a lot more with a lot less than other QB's in the league. 

🤔 I don't hate this view.

[ChevyVanMiller]

4 hours ago, Irv said:

Did Hopkins get released?

"It's 11:00 O'clock, do you know where your FA WRs are?"