Connor and O’Cyrus at the minimum should help cut down on these type of things

[BuffaloBillyG]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:55 AM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I have no words for what Josh endured last season

 

Saffold was hot garbage last year. No denial there.  However, to my untrained eye it looks like on this play it was Morse that blew the assignment. With where the DTs are lined up...Saffold's guy lined inside and Bates's guy outside his right shoulder...it appears that Morse should have slid protection left and picked up the DT lined up between him and Saffold.  And it looks like that's what Saffold expected. Now, no excuse for him just standing there and not looking for work after he was blown past. But with the RB sliding to the right and Bates moving that way it created a huge space for the DT to come up the middle with no help. Don't know if that was play design or bad communication or just a missed call on Morse's part. 

[pennstate10]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If Bates is such a good guard why was he so average last year? Okay he played better (though not as well as the hype) on the left side the last 6 weeks of 2021 but eventually you are what your tape says you are.

This is my opinion, not a cut and dried fact. 
Bates started slow but finished well last year as a good OG. Not great, but good. Joe B had his last 13 games scored at 2.82, second best Bills OL. 
PFF scored Bates a 61.8, McGovern a 52.2. 
And Bates was not playing his best position (LG). 
 

Look, I’m not saying Bates is great. I think Torrence may have more upside potential than Bates, but the operative word there is potential. And by my eye, Bates was the superior IOL compared to McGovern when both were at PSU. 
 

My best guess is Bates starts at LG, McGovern at RG, and Torrence takes over RG after a few games.  

[PrimeTime101]

8 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

I think people may not realize how much the lost Covid year and back injury set Brown back. 
It’s been said that it takes 10,000 hours to become truly expert at any physical task, whether it’s playing the violin, pitching, or soccer. You can debate the 10,000 hour limit, but practice and reps are important. As opposed to most nfl OL, who have been playing OL since high school, Brown didn’t convert to tackle until his 3rd year in college. Given the missed time due to Covid and back injury, it’s fair to say that Brown is still on the steep part of the learning curve. This is an important year. 
 

By the way, don’t sleep on Bates. Watched all of his and McGoverns games in college. I think Bates is a better guard. It wouldn’t surprise me to see Bates at LG and McGovern/Torrence at RG. 

so I agree with everything you said until this bolded. This post is very well said and put by the way   Bates is a very hot and cold player. In 2019 PFF gave him is only real good number, 76 in run blocking. In 2020 his best year, he had a 94 pass block and a 72 run block. In 21 all his numbers dropped Pass went down to 64.3 and his run went down to 61.2. In 2022, many were expecting him to bounce back to his prior year but he did not. in 2022 his pass block went down to a 61.5 and run block to 59.

 

This shows a steady regression... I do not know if its his lack of commitment to the game (? If that is even a issue?) or what it is. It is possible that he pops back to form, but I find it hard to be probable. 

 

Just my thoughts on bates. good post though  

[prissythecat]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:55 AM, 78thealltimegreat said:

I have no words for what Josh endured last season

 

 

You have to give Saffold a break and remember the elephant in the room.  Saffold was  gassed after climbing the emotional mountains last season with the Tops shooting , the blizzards, what have you.  He will rebound this season

[RoyBatty is alive]

23 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

This organization had 5 full years to identify they had a very mediocre OL protecting their superstar. It wasn't until this off season that they magically decided to pull their heads out of their arses.  We may have wasted 2 straight years of landing a Lombardi because of this negligence. 

i agree but they knew they had a problem, I dont think they suddenly realized their O Line sucks and magically pulled their head out of their arse.  That is not an accurate assessment imo.

 

They did try to address it but they failed, notably Saffold.  And right now it is as if you are assuming they HAVE solved it, we dont know if either McGovern or Torrence (or Edwards or Broeker)  will be "the answer".

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by RoyBatty is alive

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, SoMAn said:

I imagine it’s difficult to distribute limited cap dollars to have the best guys in the trenches AND at skill positions. Tough choices for a GM. There isn’t a team in the league that doesn’t have a weakness somewhere. 

Of course that's true. But don't you have to take into account when Allen was on his rookie contract? That's when Beane's misses really hurt. That was the time to solidify the oline. He put himself in this position. There were plenty of optimal years for the Bills to thrive. 

 

Instead, they are left  vulnerable in the trenches. We all know how important the trenches are. 

 

In short, I don't think it's fair to give Beane a pass because of Allen's big contract without talking about what he did prior to it. They go hand and hand. 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

i agree but they knew they had a problem, I dont think they suddenly realized their O Line sucks and magically pulled their head out of their arse.  That is not an accurate assessment imo.

 

They did try to address it but they failed, notably Saffold.  And right now it is as if you are assuming they HAVE solved it, we dont know if either McGovern or Torrence (or Edwards or Broeker)  will be "the answer".

 

I think the real point is that it's five years and counting. That's not an insignificant amount of time. During much of that time Beane had cap room to make big time moves to upgrade the Oline. I'd argue by now the Bills Oline should be solid to very good. Who thinks the Bills Oline is that? 

[Don Otreply]

35 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I think the real point is that it's five years and counting. That's not an insignificant amount of time. During much of that time Beane had cap room to make big time moves to upgrade the Oline. I'd argue by now the Bills Oline should be solid to very good. Who thinks the Bills Oline is that? 

One must consider the dearth of even averagely talented O-line players in the NFL, and it’s been this way for over a decade… the good ones don’t grow on trees…,

Edited May 20, 2023 by Don Otreply

[Captain Caveman]

On 5/19/2023 at 6:47 AM, mannc said:

Who’s “Connor”?

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/_/id/4033748/connor-mcgovern

[78thealltimegreat]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Brady only had 1 really bad offensive line in New England that I recall. Generally the oline was a strength of those teams through multiple iterations. Though obviously Brady got the ball out so fast which helped too.

 

You are correct TB12 had the benefit of one of the top 3 line coaches in the history of football in  Mr Dante Scarnecchia 

[Shaw66]

Maybe McBeane have gotten the o line right now.  We'll see.  

 

Their philosophy is to get their talent in the draft, and fill holes with free agency.   They haven't drafted well, or enough in the early rounds.

 

But I think the problem is different.   I think they want jackknives at every position, other than their premier players (Allen, Diggs, Miller, White aren't required to be jackknives).   They want guys who can play multiple positions, and at each position they want guys who can play different styles.   So, they draft a guy like Brown, who simply is not a traditional offensive tackle, because they thing he can be better than average in pass pro, better than average in the run game, have better than average mobility.  They draft Cody Ford, not sure what he can do, but he must be a guard or a tackle, right?

 

Torrence looks to me like they've gone away from the jackknife approach and said to themselves, "Let's just get a good offensive guard.  He may not be versatile; he just will be good."  

[newcam2012]

6 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

One must consider the dearth of even averagely talented O-line players in the NFL, and it’s been this way for over a decade… the good ones don’t grow on trees…,

This falls flat as a rational for the Bills years of oline issues. 

 

In fact, the opposite could be true with modern day football players. They are getting faster, bigger, and technology advances continue to grow. 

 

The reason for the Bills lack of success is largely because Beane has missed on his draft choices, acquisitions, and or neglected it with patch work players.

 

Beane clearly emphasized the dline over the oline. Boogie, AJ, Oliver, Von, etc...Now it looks as though the dline is not solidified for the upcoming years. 

 

In short, the Bills in the trenches seem pretty vulnerable. I believe this could be the achlies heel of the team. Come playoff time these defiencies will be likely exploited. 

[Don Otreply]

11 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

This falls flat as a rational for the Bills years of oline issues. 

 

In fact, the opposite could be true with modern day football players. They are getting faster, bigger, and technology advances continue to grow. 

 

The reason for the Bills lack of success is largely because Beane has missed on his draft choices, acquisitions, and or neglected it with patch work players.

 

Beane clearly emphasized the dline over the oline. Boogie, AJ, Oliver, Von, etc...Now it looks as though the dline is not solidified for the upcoming years. 

 

In short, the Bills in the trenches seem pretty vulnerable. I believe this could be the achlies heel of the team. Come playoff time these defiencies will be likely exploited. 

 

   I’m not saying that the Bills could not have done more to bolster the O-line, the resources are available most off seasons.
 

   Just look at players like Bates, he is average, and could find a home on most every NFL team.  There is a lack of quality O-lineman league wide, as recent history appears to back this up. 

[GunnerBill]

37 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

 

   I’m not saying that the Bills could not have done more to bolster the O-line, the resources are available most off seasons.
 

   Just look at players like Bates, he is average, and could find a home on most every NFL team.  There is a lack of quality O-lineman league wide, as recent history appears to back this up. 

 

He'd only start for about a 3rd of the league IMO. 

[Don Otreply]

54 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He'd only start for about a 3rd of the league IMO. 

I believe I said find a home on most teams…, 😁
I understand your position on Bates, you have seemingly never thought him to be even average, be that as it may, I think you are under estimating the lack of O-line talent league wide, which has been a point of conversation with some regularity here, and likely elsewhere.

[Rockinon]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:23 AM, SoMAn said:

Dorsey and Allen can mask a lot of o- line deficiencies with quick developing dink and dunk plays that don’t rely on linemen holding blocks for more than a couple of seconds. 
Brady and the Patriots made a career out of it with ever changing lineups in front. 
Cut down on Allen scrambling around, searching for an open receiver. Keep the chains moving with short crisp timing passes.  Reduce 3rd and long situations. Improved time of possession, keeping their D fresh. Put points on the board. 
 

Don’t need an all-star o-line with that approach. 

I think it's hilarious to think Josh is going to do a lot of short quick timing passes with a better OL. If he has time back there, he is going to feast on those 10-30yd passes that he loves so much. The whole reason for drafting a TE to replace what Beasley used to do, is force a 1 on 1 match up on the outside.  If those over the middle passes become a significant threat, one of those safeties will not be able to double the outside receiver. I'm not saying there won't be some quick timing passes but Josh's strength is pushing the ball downfield. Defenses were able to effectively take that away because there was never a serious threat over the middle last year. That changes this year because the outside receivers will not both be double covered.

 

The offense is going to jump significantly in air yards. Hopefully, the run game improves too.  I believe the focus on offense is not to improve quick timing, but to improve passes over the middle. Make that a threat, and Diggs and Davis will feast on single coverage.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I believe I said find a home on most teams…, 😁
I understand your position on Bates, you have seemingly never thought him to be even average, be that as it may, I think you are under estimating the lack of O-line talent league wide, which has been a point of conversation with some regularity here, and likely elsewhere.

 

No I agree with you on Oline talent around the league. I am just not sure Bates is more than a placeholder starter. 

[TheBeaneBandit]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

No I agree with you on Oline talent around the league. I am just not sure Bates is more than a placeholder starter. 

Both yous guys are 50% correct 😁

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, TheBeaneBandit said:

Both yous guys are 50% correct 😁

That’s all? I was thinking at least 70%, 😂

[MrEpsYtown]

On 5/20/2023 at 9:53 AM, BuffaloBillyG said:

Saffold was hot garbage last year. No denial there.  However, to my untrained eye it looks like on this play it was Morse that blew the assignment. With where the DTs are lined up...Saffold's guy lined inside and Bates's guy outside his right shoulder...it appears that Morse should have slid protection left and picked up the DT lined up between him and Saffold.  And it looks like that's what Saffold expected. Now, no excuse for him just standing there and not looking for work after he was blown past. But with the RB sliding to the right and Bates moving that way it created a huge space for the DT to come up the middle with no help. Don't know if that was play design or bad communication or just a missed call on Morse's part. 

 

IMO Morse is right there. He is sliding to the stacked backer. If he slides left there he is sliding to no one. It is true that he has leverage on that inside technique  but pass protection calls are more predicated by the alignment of potential blitzes or by number of hard men on the line of scrimmage. It is possible that the back was supposed to help Saffold, but Saffold is just terrible here, perhaps he thought he was getting help. Should Morse have maybe thrown his left hand out to help Saffold on the slide right? Maybe, but Bates clearly knows he is getting help here. Perhaps Morse got the call wrong, but that is the way I learned and teach the slide.