Who does Terry Pegula turn to for counsel when it comes to evaluating Beane & McDermott?

[Ga boy]

On 5/18/2023 at 12:59 AM, Doc Brown said:

I have no idea but he seems more on the conservative side that it'll take at least two losing seasons to fire McDermott and Beane imo.  They've both built up enough of a successful tenure here so far to deserve that long of a leash imo.  I think that both would be fired at the same time (unlike Ryan and Whaley) if he were to ever make that move.

Another 13 seconds blunder may have him escorted from the premises.

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

Nonsense. McDermott won 9 games with a bad team. McDermott with Jauron's roster wins more games than Jauron. Why? Because he is a much better football coach. 

 

Of course having Josh Allen is the difference between a team that wins 9 or 10 games and a team that can win 13 or 14. That is absolutely right. But Sean McDermott had a bang average roster and a backup level QB and won 9 games and made the playoffs. The proof is right there.

 

Talk about nonsense, our D back then was no different than our D now.  We also had Kyle Williams whose better than any DT we've had since him.  Hughes was here, as was Lorax, so was Lawson in his prime.  We had Poyer, Hyde, White too.  

 

Offensively we had McCoy, also better than any RB we've had.  The WRs weren't great but Taylor also threw for half the yards that Allen does and half the TDs, and that was hardly all because of the WRs.  

 

It's ridiculous to suggest that that team wouldn't have been incredibly better than 9-7 with Allen playing the way that has otherwise.  

 

 

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I mean it's incredibly subjective, but sure. I am not sure what it will prove though.

 

Thanks  Bear with me.  
 

Let's start with the OL, you name the five starters, I'll put out Dawkins, McGovern, Morse, Torrence, and Brown 

 

Swap the ones you want and rate 'em, the starting five that is.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Talk about nonsense, our D back then was no different than our D now.  We also had Kyle Williams whose better than any DT we've had since him.  Hughes was here, as was Lorax, so was Lawson in his prime.  We had Poyer, Hyde, White too.  

 

Offensively we had McCoy, also better than any RB we've had.  The WRs weren't great but Taylor also threw for half the yards that Allen does and half the TDs, and that was hardly all because of the WRs.  

 

It's ridiculous to suggest that that team wouldn't have been incredibly better than 9-7 with Allen playing the way that has otherwise.  

 

 

 

If course that team would have been better with Allen. Who is disputing that? The point is it would have been worse with any head coach we have had in my fandom other than McDermott. I can't comment on Wade. Before my time. I saw the end of Greggo, Mularkey, Jauron, Chan, Marrone and Rex. None of them would have got that 2017 roster to the playoffs. I am very confident in saying that. The rosters Marrone and Mularkey got to 9 wins with were both better than the 2017 roster. 

 

Your point, so far as I understand it, is you can't give Sean McDermott any credit for being a better coach than all the other guys we have had because he has Josh Allen. My counter is if course Josh Allen makes any Head Coach better. That is the law of the NFL. Almost every top HC you can name had a top QB. And the biggest single difference between the teams of the last 4 years 2019-2022 and the teams of the drought era is they have Josh Allen. But McDermott is also demonstrably through his 2017 performance (and frankly through gettting to 13-3 last year with everything they endured and a hurt Josh) a better Head Coach than all those that I named above. And given the same rosters I think he would outperform all of them.

[PBF81]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

So 2002 was my first season watching the Bills and watching the NFL. I don't remember thinking the Bills were very good but my understanding of what I was watching then was pretty rudimentary so I am not going to pound the table for my view. I am 100% confident in saying from 2004 onwards Sean McDermott would have got AT LEAST one (and in some years more than 1) extra win out of every roster. From 2004 to 2016.

 

Well, OK, fair enough I suppose.  

 

I completely disagree.  This season will reveal much more, namely how this defnese performs.  

 

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

If course that team would have been better with Allen. Who is disputing that? The point is it would have been worse with any head coach we have had in my fandom other than McDermott. I can't comment on Wade. Before my time. I saw the end of Greggo, Mularkey, Jauron, Chan, Marrone and Rex. None of them would have got that 2017 roster to the playoffs. I am very confident in saying that. The rosters Marrone and Mularkey got to 9 wins with were both better than the 2017 roster. 

 

Your point, so far as I understand it, is you can't give Sean McDermott any credit for being a better coach than all the other guys we have had because he has Josh Allen. My counter is if course Josh Allen makes any Head Coach better. That is the law of the NFL. Almost every top HC you can name had a top QB. And the biggest single difference between the teams of the last 4 years 2019-2022 and the teams of the drought era is they have Josh Allen. But McDermott is also demonstrably through his 2017 performance (and frankly through gettting to 13-3 last year with everything they endured and a hurt Josh) a better Head Coach than all those that I named above. And given the same rosters I think he would outperform all of them.

 

I can't think of any coach, not even our worst ones, that would have put up a "13 Seconds" or had the D play the way it has in the playoffs for us, so far back as to may as well move the chains in favor of the opponents ourselves.  That's hardly all as well.  

 

And yes, McD is Allen.  Take Allen away and I'm simply not seeing how he competes offensively, at all.  His running games have sucked, our passing games are 100% reliant upon huge plays by Allen a good chunk of the time.  I don't see us having anything but a bottom 10 offense without Allen, and our defensive play would have been heavily impacted as a direct result.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

Thanks  Bear with me.  
 

Let's start with the OL, you name the five starters, I'll put out Dawkins, McGovern, Morse, Torrence, and Brown 

 

Swap the ones you want and rate 'em, the starting five that is.  

 

 

 

I think that is the most likely 5, I'd swap sides for McGovern and Torrence personally but yea that is the 5. 

 

I think Dawkins is a top 10 / top 12 left tackle. Not elite (thought at his best he isn't far off) but solid. Morse is an above average centre - a very good pass protector, a below average run blocker. Spencer Brown is a below average right tackle. 

 

McGovern pre-2022 was a replacement level player. He was an above average guard in 2022.... hard to know is he ascending or was that a career year.

 

Torrence - rookie. TBC.

[PBF81]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

If course that team would have been better with Allen. Who is disputing that? The point is it would have been worse with any head coach we have had in my fandom other than McDermott.

 

And BTW, you seem to be missing the point entirely.  You now admit that those teams would have been better with Allen, but you refuse to admit that McD would comparably be no better than what Allen would have propelled those teams to earlier.  

 

You cannot have both.  

 

 

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think that is the most likely 5, I'd swap sides for McGovern and Torrence personally but yea that is the 5. 

 

I think Dawkins is a top 10 / top 12 left tackle. Not elite (thought at his best he isn't far off) but solid. Morse is an above average centre - a very good pass protector, a below average run blocker. Spencer Brown is a below average right tackle. 

 

McGovern pre-2022 was a replacement level player. He was an above average guard in 2022.... hard to know is he ascending or was that a career year.

 

Torrence - rookie. TBC.

 

As stated, 1-10 each individual player.  

 

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I can't think of any coach, not even our worst ones, that would have put up a "13 Seconds" or had the D play the way it has in the playoffs for us, so far back as to may as well move the chains in favor of the opponents ourselves.  That's hardly all as well.  

 

And yes, McD is Allen.  Take Allen away and I'm simply not seeing how he competes offensively, at all.  His running games have sucked, our passing games are 100% reliant upon huge plays by Allen a good chunk of the time.  I don't see us having anything but a bottom 10 offense without Allen, and our defensive play would have been heavily impacted as a direct result.  

 

 

 

Except when Josh was struggling as a rookie in 2018 and the Bills O sucked, the Bills still had the #2 overall defense.

 

This comes down to your view being "screw the data, I don't like McDermott, I blame him for 13 seconds (which is fair that was ultimately on him) and I can't get over it."

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

And BTW, you seem to be missing the point entirely.  You now admit that those teams would have been better with Allen, but you refuse to admit that McD would comparably be no better than what Allen would have propelled those teams to earlier.  

 

 

 

No your point makes no sense. It CAN be both. Josh Allen would have made all those drought teams better. But even without Josh, McDermott would have made them all better too. Now QBs matter more than Head Coaches. No dispute about that, so the win differential would have been greater had you just swapped out QBs than if you had just swapped out HCs. But whichever you had swapped out they'd have been better.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

As stated, 1-10 each individual player.  

 

 

Err... okay... well I am not sure what the metric is but I'll play along

 

Dion - 7

Morse - 6

McGovern - 5

Brown - 4

Torrence - N/A

[Royale with Cheese]

17 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Talk about nonsense, our D back then was no different than our D now.  We also had Kyle Williams whose better than any DT we've had since him.  Hughes was here, as was Lorax, so was Lawson in his prime.  We had Poyer, Hyde, White too.  

 

Offensively we had McCoy, also better than any RB we've had.  The WRs weren't great but Taylor also threw for half the yards that Allen does and half the TDs, and that was hardly all because of the WRs.  

 

It's ridiculous to suggest that that team wouldn't have been incredibly better than 9-7 with Allen playing the way that has otherwise.  

 

 

 

This team is significantly more talented that the 2018.  

 

Your evidence that it's the same because of an end of the career Kyle Williams, end of the career of Lorax, end of career McCoy, a prime Lawson who was never good, first year starting together Poyer/Hyde and a rookie in Trey White?  That's your evidence?

 

To the bolded, nobody suggested that lol.  It's ridiculous that you assumed that.

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Except when Josh was struggling as a rookie in 2018 and the Bills O sucked, the Bills still had the #2 overall defense.

 

This comes down to your view being "screw the data, I don't like McDermott, I blame him for 13 seconds (which is fair that was ultimately on him) and I can't get over it."

 

Bingo.

[frostbitmic]

[AuntieEm]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I am sure Terry consults Kim (health withstanding) I do get the sense they are very much a partnership. But in terms of outside counsel which is what I took the question to be - I don't think he is big on valuing other opinions above his own.

 

I don't get the sense he is arrogant and not being big on valuing other opinions is the essence of arrogance.  He certainly deferred the decision not to draft Mahomes to the men he hired to coach his team and the man he hired as the GM, by all accounts McD strongly recommended Beane knowing they shared similar philosophies in team building and easier to work with like minded people.  Seeing they did trade away or released players that didn't fit to the point a number of fans were convinced that they were going to tank that season to garner a high draft pick.  

 

Instead they did what all previous coach/gm combos didn't do.  They made the playoffs  though it wasn't a team that had enough talent to actually win any playoff games.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by AuntieEm

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

 

I don't get the sense he is arrogant and not being big on valuing other opinions is the essence of arrogance.  He certainly deferred the decision not to draft Mahomes to the men he hired to coach his team and the man he hired as the GM, by all accounts McD strongly recommended Beane knowing they shared similar philosophies in team building and easier to work with like minded people.  Seeing they did trade away or released players that didn't fit to the point a number of fans were convinced that they were going to tank that season to garner a high draft pick.  

 

Instead they did what all previous coach/gm combos didn't do.  They made the playoffs  though it wasn't a team that had enough talent to actually win any playoff games.  

 

 

I do think the Pegula's had a major crisis of confidence surrounding the Rex Ryan debacle.    They totally bought into him and gave him whatever he wanted and then  Rex basically dared Terry to fire him.   I think they were publicly embarrassed in a way that isn't even possible in the low profile NHL and at that point they decided that they knew too little about the sport at the time to run a franchise.    Terry bought into McD hard........and McD saw the opportunity to seize full control and he did.   But as Paul Hamilton has stated many times.........now that they feel more comfortable with the sport the Pegula's regret giving them carte blanche over the organization.     

[97bills]

Let’s hope it never comes to that.. rebuilding a new staff takes time and before you no it two seasons have rolled bye, and still no ring and Allen is older.. and if you miss.. oh boy wash and repeat 

[Bill from NYC]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

   Terry bought into McD hard........and McD saw the opportunity to seize full control and he did.   But as Paul Hamilton has stated many times.........now that they feel more comfortable with the sport the Pegula's regret giving them carte blanche over the organization.     

I believe every word of this. Imo McDermott is the boss, NOT Beane.

[ColoradoBills]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:38 AM, Big Turk said:

Let's see...take over a team that was on a 17 year playoff drought...hire 2 people that have the highest winning percentage in Bills history...

 

Suffice to say they aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

I wouldn't spend too much time thinking about it. Far easier for the team to go back to 7-9 with new staff making changes then doing better.

 

I'll add more to your point.  If McDermott can lead the Bills to a 13-4 record this year, he will have a .658-win percentage.

 

That's better than Andy Reid at .641 and just behind Belichick at .662.

 

The only active HC above them is Matt LaFleur at .712.  With only 66 games coached, his numbers will be heading south this season in GB.

 

What some fans I feel don't understand is that Beane and McDermott are still learning.

[BillsFan2313]

On 5/18/2023 at 12:19 AM, JoPoy88 said:

he turns to people definitely smarter than you. Settled? 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I believe every word of this. Imo McDermott is the boss, NOT Beane.

 

McDermott is absolutely the boss. I don't think he takes every decision, I think he trusts Brandon Beane implicitly and Beane makes most of the personnel calls. But McDermott has the power to veto any decision and he has the power to get the GM replaced. I don't think Beane has any leverage to get McDermott replaced (not that I think he would, I think he is totally loyal to him).

[3rdand12]

On 5/18/2023 at 1:04 AM, TBBills Fan said:

Look, I trust you.    Terry and I talk occasionally.  He found me here on the board and saw something in me.  So, when he needs advice about beane and McDermott he calls me.  I don't charge him anything. 

Thank you !

 But can we do coffee ? I have some thoughts ....

[TBBills Fan]

22 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

Thank you !

 But can we do coffee ? I have some thoughts ....

 

 

okay, but I wont make any promises I will send the info up the chain to T-Pegs (thats what friends call him) unless its really good.  I also will take credit for it.