Who does Terry Pegula turn to for counsel when it comes to evaluating Beane & McDermott?

[Gugny]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't know that he gave them a mulligan. But they are humans and they just sucked that day. It happens. It isn't always controllable. 

They sucked because they didn’t try. 
 

That is different than getting your ass kicked by a much better team. 
 

I would have rather watched them get destroyed with backups who wanted to play, than to get beaten with starters who didn’t feel like playing football that day. 
 

I’ve never seen a team quit like that.

 

Not even for the worst of coaches. 

[Nextmanup]

On 5/18/2023 at 6:19 AM, JoPoy88 said:

he turns to people definitely smarter than you. Settled? 

What a garbage comment!

 

PUKE!
 

 

On 5/18/2023 at 6:21 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

There’s firms and stuff owners hire.

 

Ive said this before though, don’t expect McDermott to be fired after 1 losing season. It’s going to take multiple losing seasons. 
 

And I’ll add my opinion. The Bills would be absolutely stupid to think about firing McDermott until they have a losing season.

The "McDermott is here forever" crowd has a loud voice at this forum, but you better believe his ass will be out the door if this team doesn't get it together AT SOME POINT.

 

When that point is, only Pegula can say.

 

 

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, Gugny said:

They sucked because they didn’t try. 
 

That is different than getting your ass kicked by a much better team. 
 

I would have rather watched them get destroyed with backups who wanted to play, than to get beaten with starters who didn’t feel like playing football that day. 
 

I’ve never seen a team quit like that.

 

Not even for the worst of coaches. 

 

I agree they played like zombies. But I have coached. I have a hard time putting that on coaches.

[Gugny]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree they played like zombies. But I have coached. I have a hard time putting that on coaches.

I hear you. I do have empathy. 
 

But at the same time, at all levels of sports, when athletes don’t give it their best, good coaches sit those players down. 
 

I would have preferred that, that day. 

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

To do that properly you need to do A LOT more than go through rankings. That is my point. You need to sit with the game film and go through it and break it down properly. I have done that and that is how I have come to my conclusion. Do I have time to re-do it now for the sake of trying to win a message board argument? No. 

 

I have given you my general sense.

 

In 2019 - the Bills got beaten by a Houston team that really laid an egg in the first half but in the second half JJ Watt had a critical 3rd down sack to force a FG deep in HOU territory; Whitney Merciless had the strip sack of Allen in the 4th Quarter; DeAndre Hopkins had 6 catches for 90 yards and Deshaun Watson had an exceptional sack eluding play to set up their winning field goal. Houston's best 4 players showed up in the big moments. At that point we had Josh who had not yet developed into the elite QB he is, and Tre White who ultimately lost the 1v1 battle with Hopkins. It was before we had Stef Diggs. The better team won the game and their high end players were the difference makers.

 

In 2020 - the Bills, Colts game was a closer game than some expected, sure, and I don't think it was a great coaching job by Daboll (and this isn't me saying see Daboll sucks because he has left, I was and remain a Daboll fan... just wasn't his best day) the offensive gameplan was a bit meh, but it certainly wasn't a disaster. Conversely they had a really good plan on defense which was take Jonathan Taylor away (he was held to fewer that 4 yards per carry) and force the geriatric QB to beat you in January weather in Buffalo. He couldn't. Then they had an excellent coaching plan against the Ravens and held them in check and then KC were just better than us. In every facet they dominated that football game. They thrashed us in both trenches. As I say constantly when you get whipped in the trenches there are not many plays on your play sheet that are going to work.

 

In 2021 - We played KC extremely well, coaching blew it (and I agree by the way it wasn't "just" 13 seconds. I thought the Bills had a great plan and called a great game until the last 2 minutes. I know KC had yards and first downs but the Bills plan against KC was bend and not break and it had worked in the regular season and was working in the playoff game. Kansas City had 26 points with 1:54 to go. How the Bills handled the game from there on in was really poor on the part of coaching). 

 

In 2022 - The players sucked. They made countless mistakes against a Miami team that couldn't move the ball at all on offense and kept what was a complete mismatch close. Then they were flat as a pancake against Cincinnati, their most reliable DB blew two coverages that led to touchdowns, Josh looked and played like a zombie, they couldn't move the ball on offense. It was just a disaster. Could they have mixed up coverages more sooner in the game? Sure they could. Is there any reason to think that would have changed the result based on what happened when they did? Not really. 

 

Thanks for taking the time there!

 

I won't add to that with a couple of exceptions, but again, please keep in mind that my point has been that coaching has not been the difference in our wins, but has cost us in our losses, in the playoffs and generally speaking.  I don't see anything above that you wrote that significantly challenges that.  I also disagree that one has to go thru play-by-play to figure that out either.  Giving up nearly 500 yards in regulation, almost more than they allowed all season, with a #1 D, I don't care what the strategy, is a glaring coaching failure.  We could go back and look at the game-day-thread for some clarity from people here, I'm pretty sure that would shed quite a bit of interesting light.  

 

I will add that that bend-don't-break D nearly cost us the game prior to the "13 Seconds," with the Mahomes putting up 327 in regulation with 3 TDs, and more importantly, and I'll contrast this in a second, with 115 yards from relatively low-end RBs on 6 ypc.  There's nothing you can say to suggest that some bend-don't-break D was wise or good coaching there defensively while allowing that many yards, and against our big bad #1 D.  

Now, I'll contrast that with Reid and KC.  KC had the 21st ranked rushing D, we had the 13th ranked rushing D.  KC ranked 31st in YPC avg. rushing D, we ranked 10th there.  They ran the ball (non-Mahomes) 19 times, we ran the ball (non-Allen) 13 times.  Why so few?  ... against a much worse rushing D?  Why couldn't they figure out how to run the ball better for balance?   ... against a team ranking at the bottom for YPC allowed?  We know that the play-selection (coaching) had a lot to do with that.  We were all banging our heads against the wall over that.  Nine teams that they played rushed for more yardage than we did, nine, including Allen's contribution.  Without Allen's contribution every single one of their opponents rushed for more yards.  That lack of balance is entirely coaching, there's no way to escape that.  The players do not call the plays and we've known that play-calling and the imbalance as a direct result, especially considering our DFL status or right around there w/o Allen running the ball has been an issue.  

 

Without Davis going off in that game we get killed just like we did in 2020.  Not one other WR did anything notable except for Beasley who posted a solid support effort.  Diggs did nothing.  

 

In short, Reid did a better job with scrub RBs against a much higher ranked rushing D than we did.  There's no reason for that.  It was not a well-coached game at all, so we definitely disagree on the extent that coaching was at fault there.  McD should consider himself fortunate that that's the game that Davis decided to pull a zinger, and for all the heat that Davis takes.  The irony there.  

 

The other, this past postseason.  Skylar Thompson should be all we need to hear there.  The things you mention are directly related to coaches having the team prepped.  Either way, the point being there as well, McD did nothing to help the team win either.  This hasn't been a referendum on the players, my point has been specifically related to McD and his positive contributions, or lack thereof, regardless of the non-coaching aspects of the team, such as pointed out in offensive balance for example.  Good coaches find ways to win.  McD only wins when either Allen posts a huge game, we play some crappy team, or the D has one of its less often than so solid defensive outings against a good offensive opponent, which happens what, two, three times a season maybe.  

 

BTW, I couldn't help but notice that you glossed over that 19 2nd-half points by Houston, and the 279 yards that their offense, not Watt or Mecilis, put up, or the 99 2nd-half rushing yards that they put up, with a sluggish stiff like Hyde and a nothing journeyman type like Duke Johnson contributing most of that against our illustrious #2 defense.  It was inexcusable.  Even subtracting Hopkins 90 yards, that's still nearly 200 yards in a single half.  With Hopkins' contribution it's a joke.  

 

If you're reinclined I'd love to see your player ratings.  Let me know.  

 

Otherwise, we've beaten the hell out of this.  Again, as I see it, the big difference between our takes, apart from what we ascribe to coaching, is that I'm basing my viewpoint off of the fact that there is absolutely no pattern or trend whatsoever towards any improvement on McD's part in the way of coaching, particularly in the playoffs.  You're more patient for other reasons.  

 

We'll see.  I'm looking forward to reviewing this with you as the season plays on.  Despite the lack of a trend/pattern towards improvement in that way, I'll be as happy as everyone else should we win it all this season.  I have a feeling however that the mood is going to change significantly between now and the end of the season.  On one hand I can see the best offense that we've ever had.  On the other, I can still see us not running the ball much, Kincaid not making the difference as a rookie that's needed, our defense regressing significantly which I definitely see, particularly given the void at LB, and still some very questionable offensive play-calling w/o McD reeling in Dorsey and setting him straight, .  

 

Anyway, thanks!  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by PBF81

[GunnerBill]

19 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Thanks for taking the time there!

 

I won't add to that with a couple of exceptions, but again, please keep in mind that my point has been that coaching has not been the difference in our wins, but has cost us in our losses, in the playoffs and generally speaking.  I don't see anything above that you wrote that significantly challenges that.  I also disagree that one has to go thru play-by-play to figure that out either.  Giving up nearly 500 yards in regulation, almost more than they allowed all season, with a #1 D, I don't care what the strategy, is a glaring coaching failure.  We could go back and look at the game-day-thread for some clarity from people here, I'm pretty sure that would shed quite a bit of interesting light.  

 

I will add that that bend-don't-break D nearly cost us the game prior to the "13 Seconds," with the Mahomes putting up 327 in regulation with 3 TDs, and more importantly, and I'll contrast this in a second, with 115 yards from relatively low-end RBs on 6 ypc.  There's nothing you can say to suggest that some bend-don't-break D was wise or good coaching there defensively while allowing that many yards, and against our big bad #1 D.  

Now, I'll contrast that with Reid and KC.  KC had the 21st ranked rushing D, we had the 13th ranked rushing D.  KC ranked 31st in YPC avg. rushing D, we ranked 10th there.  They ran the ball (non-Mahomes) 19 times, we ran the ball (non-Allen) 13 times.  Why so few?  ... against a much worse rushing D?  Why couldn't they figure out how to run the ball better for balance?   ... against a team ranking at the bottom for YPC allowed?  We know that the play-selection (coaching) had a lot to do with that.  We were all banging our heads against the wall over that.  Nine teams that they played rushed for more yardage than we did, nine, including Allen's contribution.  Without Allen's contribution every single one of their opponents rushed for more yards.  That lack of balance is entirely coaching, there's no way to escape that.  The players do not call the plays and we've known that play-calling and the imbalance as a direct result, especially considering our DFL status or right around there w/o Allen running the ball has been an issue.  

 

Without Davis going off in that game we get killed just like we did in 2020.  Not one other WR did anything notable except for Beasley who posted a solid support effort.  Diggs did nothing.  

 

In short, Reid did a better job with scrub RBs against a much higher ranked rushing D than we did.  There's no reason for that.  It was not a well-coached game at all, so we definitely disagree on the extent that coaching was at fault there.  McD should consider himself fortunate that that's the game that Davis decided to pull a zinger, and for all the heat that Davis takes.  The irony there.  

 

The other, this past postseason.  Skylar Thompson should be all we need to hear there.  The things you mention are directly related to coaches having the team prepped.  Either way, the point being there as well, McD did nothing to help the team win either.  This hasn't been a referendum on the players, my point has been specifically related to McD and his positive contributions, or lack thereof, regardless of the non-coaching aspects of the team, such as pointed out in offensive balance for example.  Good coaches find ways to win.  McD only wins when either Allen posts a huge game, we play some crappy team, or the D has one of its less often than so solid defensive outings against a good offensive opponent, which happens what, two, three times a season maybe.  

 

BTW, I couldn't help but notice that you glossed over that 19 2nd-half points by Houston, and the 279 yards that their offense, not Watt or Mecilis, put up, or the 99 2nd-half rushing yards that they put up, with a sluggish stiff like Hyde and a nothing journeyman type like Duke Johnson contributing most of that against our illustrious #2 defense.  It was inexcusable.  Even subtracting Hopkins 90 yards, that's still nearly 200 yards in a single half.  With Hopkins' contribution it's a joke.  

 

If you're reinclined I'd love to see your player ratings.  Let me know.  

 

Otherwise, we've beaten the hell out of this.  Again, as I see it, the big difference between our takes, apart from what we ascribe to coaching, is that I'm basing my viewpoint off of the fact that there is absolutely no pattern or trend whatsoever towards any improvement on McD's part in the way of coaching, particularly in the playoffs.  You're more patient for other reasons.  

 

We'll see.  I'm looking forward to reviewing this with you as the season plays on.  Despite the lack of a trend/pattern towards improvement in that way, I'll be as happy as everyone else should we win it all this season.  I have a feeling however that the mood is going to change significantly between now and the end of the season.  On one hand I can see the best offense that we've ever had.  On the other, I can still see us not running the ball much, Kincaid not making the difference as a rookie that's needed, our defense regressing significantly which I definitely see, particularly given the void at LB, and still some very questionable offensive play-calling w/o McD reeling in Dorsey and setting him straight, .  

 

Anyway, thanks!  

 

 

 

This translates to "I have decided it is McDermott's fault, so it is."

[GunnerBill]

22 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

 

Otherwise, we've beaten the hell out of this.  Again, as I see it, the big difference between our takes, apart from what we ascribe to coaching, is that I'm basing my viewpoint off of the fact that there is absolutely no pattern or trend whatsoever towards any improvement on McD's part in the way of coaching, particularly in the playoffs.  You're more patient for other reasons.  

 

 

 

The difference is you are quite happy to ascribe everything to coaching. I have no by the way ever said that McDermott is bound to win a Superbowl. Most coaches, even very good ones like McDermott, don't. Sometimes bad coaches like Mike McCarthy do. The NFL has mastered parity. It does a great job. The best QB doesn't always win. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win. 

 

There is any number of reasons why teams don't or do win footballs games. Luck. QB play. Talent level. Player performance. Coaching. I think coaching has genuinely cost the Bills in one big moment. If it costs us that badly in a second I call that a pattern and I would be wholly in favour of a change. But so far I see ZERO pattern to our playoff losses. 

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

This translates to "I have decided it is McDermott's fault, so it is."

 

I know that you didn't say that, but as I pointed out, you've also shown nothing indicative that among the primary reasons for those wins is McD either.  If you think you did, highlight them and point it out.  

 

I didn't mean to make it sound that way, as if you agree that it's McD's fault.  I'm simply pointing out that all you did was defray the negative, you didn't state positive reasons attributable to him for wins.  

 

Once again, and I cannot stress this enough, but it's not that IMO he's a bad coach, although he definitely has issues that are problematic, but again, it's that he's not doing much to help this team win in the playoffs.  As I've said, he seems to have reached a ceiling.  We'll see whether that changes this season.  Relax a little bit, because if that plays out then he won't continue to have a majority of support from fans and far less from media.  

 

I understand your point.  You've been relatively fair.  But again, reread your statement on the playoff games.  No one's going to find anything positive about his contributions for winning those games in them.  And blaming the play of our D on their defensive players also does not accomplish that task given the monumental choke involved in the 2nd-half, it only accentuates it.  

 

 

Look, I realize that we're not going to align here.  So let's just see where things sit come December.  Until then it's only discussion, right.  

 

 

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The difference is you are quite happy to ascribe everything to coaching. I have no by the way ever said that McDermott is bound to win a Superbowl. Most coaches, even very good ones like McDermott, don't. Sometimes bad coaches like Mike McCarthy do. The NFL has mastered parity. It does a great job. The best QB doesn't always win. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win. 

 

There is any number of reasons why teams don't or do win footballs games. Luck. QB play. Talent level. Player performance. Coaching. I think coaching has genuinely cost the Bills in one big moment. If it costs us that badly in a second I call that a pattern and I would be wholly in favour of a change. But so far I see ZERO pattern to our playoff losses. 

 

I'm not asking you where his coaching cost us, I'm asking where it was instrumental in wins.  You've come up empty there, plain and simple.  You're not getting this despite making a ridiculous claim that I ascribe everything to coaching.  Really?  I'm equally critical of Beane not putting the talent in place for us to be able to perform better in a bunch of areas, OL being primary among them.  You should know that.  

 

My claims are that Allen covers a host of coaching failures and underachievements.  

 

But I don't think that any informed and knowledgeable football fan would try to pull off that a 19-point effort led by nearly 300 yards of offense in the second half, and featuring only a single premier player, is anything but a coaching failure.  

 

Otherwise, fine, blame it on Beane for the lack of talent.  Are we really going to have that discussion?  

 

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth so to speak.  

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by PBF81

[PBF81]

14 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

The difference is you are quite happy to ascribe everything to coaching. I have no by the way ever said that McDermott is bound to win a Superbowl. Most coaches, even very good ones like McDermott, don't. Sometimes bad coaches like Mike McCarthy do. The NFL has mastered parity. It does a great job. The best QB doesn't always win. The best team doesn't always win. The best coach doesn't always win. 

 

There is any number of reasons why teams don't or do win footballs games. Luck. QB play. Talent level. Player performance. Coaching. I think coaching has genuinely cost the Bills in one big moment. If it costs us that badly in a second I call that a pattern and I would be wholly in favour of a change. But so far I see ZERO pattern to our playoff losses. 

 

From the Ross Tucker coach ranking thread, ... per Tucker:  

 

Quote

 

22. Sean McDermott, Buffalo Bills

Seasons With Team: 6 | Head Coaching Record: 62-35

Analysis: He’s done a lot of winning and deserves credit for that but the combination of losing games against far inferior teams in the regular season, which hurts playoff seeding, and then getting outcoached in the postseason is troubling. It seems like it’s going to get harder, not easier, for this group of Bills to break through with a Super Bowl berth.

 

 

I find absolutely nothing to argue with there.  You do.  That's the delta.  It would appear that I don't have an irrational hatred against and bias towards McD.  Clearly I'm not the only one.  

 

Argue with him.  

 

 

 

[stevestojan]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:14 PM, Nephilim17 said:

When the team is doing well and/or exceeding general expectations, as it has done the past few years, minus, probably, last season, this question is kind of moot.

 

But if and when the team is not meeting expectations or things get complicated, is there anyone in Pegula's circle of friends or trusted business associates (at arm's length from Bills operations) who he can turn to for advice and counsel on questions related to extensions, evaluations, or possible firings?

 

I'm not trying to be negative; I hope McBean lead us to multiple championships... but if things don't go as well as we hope — and with an elite QB things should mean serious contention for a Super Bowl — is Terry on his own or who advises him? 

Pegula seems, obviously, like a sharp businessman, but he doesn't strike me as a football expert. Maybe I'm wrong but I expect him to turn to someone if and when he needs to make tough decisions.

Man, the rides not even over yet. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

From the Ross Tucker coach ranking thread, ... per Tucker:  

 

 

I find absolutely nothing to argue with there.  You do.  That's the delta.  It would appear that I don't have an irrational hatred against and bias towards McD.  Clearly I'm not the only one.  

 

Argue with him.  

 

 

 

 

You are not the only one but you are equally as wrong as Ross Tucker. And your claim earlier was "most people." I never said you were the only person. I disputed most people. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

I know that you didn't say that, but as I pointed out, you've also shown nothing indicative that among the primary reasons for those wins is McD either.  If you think you did, highlight them and point it out.  

 

I didn't mean to make it sound that way, as if you agree that it's McD's fault.  I'm simply pointing out that all you did was defray the negative, you didn't state positive reasons attributable to him for wins.  

 

Once again, and I cannot stress this enough, but it's not that IMO he's a bad coach, although he definitely has issues that are problematic, but again, it's that he's not doing much to help this team win in the playoffs.  As I've said, he seems to have reached a ceiling.  We'll see whether that changes this season.  Relax a little bit, because if that plays out then he won't continue to have a majority of support from fans and far less from media.  

 

I understand your point.  You've been relatively fair.  But again, reread your statement on the playoff games.  No one's going to find anything positive about his contributions for winning those games in them.  And blaming the play of our D on their defensive players also does not accomplish that task given the monumental choke involved in the 2nd-half, it only accentuates it.  

 

 

Look, I realize that we're not going to align here.  So let's just see where things sit come December.  Until then it's only discussion, right.  

 

 

 

I'm not asking you where his coaching cost us, I'm asking where it was instrumental in wins.  You've come up empty there, plain and simple.  You're not getting this despite making a ridiculous claim that I ascribe everything to coaching.  Really?  I'm equally critical of Beane not putting the talent in place for us to be able to perform better in a bunch of areas, OL being primary among them.  You should know that.  

 

My claims are that Allen covers a host of coaching failures and underachievements.  

 

But I don't think that any informed and knowledgeable football fan would try to pull off that a 19-point effort led by nearly 300 yards of offense in the second half, and featuring only a single premier player, is anything but a coaching failure.  

 

Otherwise, fine, blame it on Beane for the lack of talent.  Are we really going to have that discussion?  

 

You can't argue out of both sides of your mouth so to speak.  

 

 

 

Generally speaking..... coaching is not the main reason for individual wins and losses in the NFL. It is a players' game and a players' league. So I am not claiming that Sean McDermott is the main reason for individual playoff wins. They have had good gameplans in playoff games - whether the plan to shut down Jonathan Taylor, their plan vs Lamar, or their willingness to attack deep early and often vs the Patriots. But I am not here saying the main reason for those wins is coaching. The main reason for those wins is talent. The main reason for the losses is also talent. With the KC game in 2021 the exception. 

 

I don't think Andy Reid is "the reason" for many Kansas City playoff wins either. Indeed as has been discussed earlier his playoff history pre-Mahomes would suggest he isn't exactly a playoff coach par excellence. And even though I do think Bill Belichick has been an exceptional coach the main reason for those Superbowls was Tom Brady. The no time out and "play goalline" decision vs Seattle was pretty significant in winning one but otherwise the rest I pretty much have as players' wins. 

 

What the best coaches do is develop players (the Bills do that well), create a winning culture (McDermott has done that) and then on gameday they generally have sensible gameplans that allow the players to execute. The Bills have had that, for the most part. Of course, and I have agreed with you on this from the start, the Bills largely go as Josh Allen goes. Welcome to the NFL. The Quarterback is the most important position. Generally our playoff record is we win when Josh plays well, we lose when he doesn't. The exception is Kansas City 2021. I don't think that is "covering up for coaching" or indeed "covering up" for talent acquisition failures. I just think it is the reality of NFL football. If we start losing playoff games to teams we are clearly better than where Josh outplays his counterpart and we still lose then I'd be looking at changing the Head Coach. But Watson, Mahomes and Burrow have outplayed Josh in 3 playoff losses. When Burrow outplayed Mahomes in 2021 in the AFCCG the Chiefs lost. The AFC is a Quarterback gauntlet. The one exception for us again is @Kansas City in 2021... and I think everyone is clear that a repeat of that would and indeed should result in coaching changes. 

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

You are not the only one but you are equally as wrong as Ross Tucker. And your claim earlier was "most people." I never said you were the only person. I disputed most people. 

 

BTW, 22 is too low, not agreeing with that.

 

But until he figures out how to coach up in the big games ... 

 

 

[PBF81]

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

And even though I do think Bill Belichick has been an exceptional coach the main reason for those Superbowls was Tom Brady. The no time out and "play goalline" decision vs Seattle was pretty significant in winning one but otherwise the rest I pretty much have as players' wins. 

 

Interesting that you bring him up.   Agree with you that it was more Brady than BB for their sustained success and Championships.  Belichick is a shrewd in-game tactician to be sure, something that I and many don't see with McD.  Both are defensively oriented, BB better, but their similarity is that neither has the same ingenuity or skillset when it comes to offense, McD even less so.  In a league that's driven by offense these days, that's a huge impediment.  That's what the core complaint about McD seems to be.  

 

 

7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

What the best coaches do is develop players (the Bills do that well), create a winning culture (McDermott has done that) and then on gameday they generally have sensible gameplans that allow the players to execute. The Bills have had that, for the most part. Of course, and I have agreed with you on this from the start, the Bills largely go as Josh Allen goes. Welcome to the NFL. The Quarterback is the most important position. Generally our playoff record is we win when Josh plays well, we lose when he doesn't. The exception is Kansas City 2021. I don't think that is "covering up for coaching" or indeed "covering up" for talent acquisition failures. I just think it is the reality of NFL football. If we start losing playoff games to teams we are clearly better than where Josh outplays his counterpart and we still lose then I'd be looking at changing the Head Coach. But Watson, Mahomes and Burrow have outplayed Josh in 3 playoff losses. When Burrow outplayed Mahomes in 2021 in the AFCCG the Chiefs lost. The AFC is a Quarterback gauntlet. The one exception for us again is @Kansas City in 2021... and I think everyone is clear that a repeat of that would and indeed should result in coaching changes.  

 

Here's my issue with that, not that I disagree, but you don't go far enough there.  Sure, Josh didn't play well vs. Cincy, but neither did the D, horrifically in fact, and that has nothing to do with Allen directly.  We can argue about how Allen's play impacts it indirectly, but that's relatively moot here.  

 

Where I will disagree is that it was coaching that had our defensive players, repeatedly, set so far back on 3rd-and-relatively-short plays, as to all but hand them the 1st-down yardage in that Cincy game, shades of "13 Seconds" even.  That's 100% coaching and cannot be put onto the players, and apparently a lesson not learned, which is a huge issue here.  

 

As to gameplans, he may have pieced one or two good ones together, but it was a commonly repeated issue right here last season, about how the gameplans sucked or were not obvious, etc.  McD doesn't help himself in that way in pressers by explaining them.  

 

Again, we've beaten this to death.  It will be interesting this fall, we can have an intelligent review following games to track what the issues were and the like, and see how the fall unfolds.  

 

We're on the same sheet insofar as McD creating a winning culture.  Obviously you know that I'm not in the camp that believes that he's the one to finish the job and take us all the way.  There's nothing wrong with that as long as someone realizes it and makes the appropriate [business] moves there.  I view him as a sort of middle-reliever in baseball.  I will say, one thing that has always bothered me about fans, is that when a coach is fired or let go, the fans generally get on the bandwagon that he sucked or the like.  There is the possibility that a former coach had his strengths, they played out, but then the team entered a different phase for which he was not particularly suited to "taking it from there."  Obviously IMO that's McD.  But the point is that simply because a coach is "fired," does not mean that they didn't serve an important role up to that point. Often it does, but it doesn't always, which is the case here per my viewpoint.  But this is what you sign up for when you hire a first-time head-coach, no?  I don't recall when we hired him that many were saying he'll do what he's done. 

 

There was a whole lot of "let's wait and see" here.  He's definitely had some luck in generating his narrative:  Cincy beating the Ravens on that last play to put us in the playoffs in 2017 in a season where we all but entirely beat a list of nobodies and only one team that won a playoff game and that being only a wild-card game, and drafting Allen.  But it's entirely possible and as I see it, more than likely based upon the established patterns/trends, that he's reached a plateau.  Fans tend to send coaches off in shame, but there shouldn't be any shame here.  At the same time, if the team wants to take the next step, then they have a tough decision to make.  

 

Having said that, as Clint Eastwood said in Magnum Force, a man's got to know his limitations.  This season will reveal much, now with Frasier gone and Dorsey in his second season, and with zero excuses in the receiving dept. or at RB and OL now.  It's been interesting, every season we as a collective say, we finally have a set of good receivers, but then when the season ends, all of a sudden our receivers suck.  If we still finish DFL in rushing apart from Allen's rushing, if we still abandon the run in games where we're averaging well above average YPC, if the defense falls to mediocre in the rankings, etc., then I don't think that McD weathers that well.  

 

It'll be fun reviewing games with you in the fall.  

 

 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

Here's my issue with that, not that I disagree, but you don't go far enough there.  Sure, Josh didn't play well vs. Cincy, but neither did the D, horrifically in fact, and that has nothing to do with Allen directly.  We can argue about how Allen's play impacts it indirectly, but that's relatively moot here.  

 

Where I will disagree is that it was coaching that had our defensive players, repeatedly, set so far back on 3rd-and-relatively-short plays, as to all but hand them the 1st-down yardage in that Cincy game, shades of "13 Seconds" even.  That's 100% coaching and cannot be put onto the players, and apparently a lesson not learned, which is a huge issue here.  

 

As to gameplans, he may have pieced one or two good ones together, but it was a commonly repeated issue right here last season, about how the gameplans sucked or were not obvious, etc.  McD doesn't help himself in that way in pressers by explaining them.  

 

 

Don't disagree the D played badly. But it was one of your points that Josh hides the flaws when we win and I think people who make that argument have to recognise the other side too. The 2021 KC game where Josh played brilliantly and we lost and the 2022 Miami game where Josh played relatively poorly and we won aside our playoff record in the McDermott-Allen era is almost directly tied to how Josh plays. So if Josh gets the credit when it goes well he also has to shoulder the blame when he plays like a zombie and even Diggs (who he has said publicly is the guy who can normally reach him) couldn't get through to him on the sideline and he was just sitting there staring into middle distance. 

 

The off coverage thing has been done to death. I know fans hate soft coverage, but it isn't always the wrong call and wasn't even always wrong in that game. On gameplans generally.... I mean it shouldn't be a surprise most fans don't find them obvious. Most fans don't know what they are watching (and that's fine you can enjoy the game of football without it). I don't think there was a consistent gameplan issue in 2022. Though happy to have my memory jogged if people want to discuss specific incidents. 

 

EDIT: and to be clear when I say Josh has to "shoulder the blame" I mean the blame for his performance. He clearly isn't responsible for the entire team. Though he is the most important part of it. No other piece of the jigsaw in the NFL affect wins and losses at anything close to the level that QB performance does. 

Edited May 26, 2023 by GunnerBill

[PBF81]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't disagree the D played badly. But it was one of your points that Josh hides the flaws when we win and I think people who make that argument have to recognise the other side too. The 2021 KC game where Josh played brilliantly and we lost and the 2022 Miami game where Josh played relatively poorly and we won aside our playoff record in the McDermott-Allen era is almost directly tied to how Josh plays. So if Josh gets the credit when it goes well he also has to shoulder the blame when he plays like a zombie and even Diggs (who he has said publicly is the guy who can normally reach him) couldn't get through to him on the sideline and he was just sitting there staring into middle distance. 

 

The off coverage thing has been done to death. I know fans hate soft coverage, but it isn't always the wrong call and wasn't even always wrong in that game. On gameplans generally.... I mean it shouldn't be a surprise most fans don't find them obvious. Most fans don't know what they are watching (and that's fine you can enjoy the game of football without it). I don't think there was a consistent gameplan issue in 2022. Though happy to have my memory jogged if people want to discuss specific incidents. 

 

I discount that Miami game, generally speaking, simply because of the unbearable and dangerous heat element.  We've all been in that kind of heat and worked in it to some extent, it becomes difficult to think straight under those circumstances, which were absurdly anomalous.  

 

Again, not in argument, just as an outlier in assessing or analyzing the team overall.  

 

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

BTW, 22 is too low, not agreeing with that.

 

But until he figures out how to coach up in the big games ... 

 

 

Was our home playoff game against the Ravens not a big game?

 

it’s hard to take arguments seriously when we act like it’s never ever been done by McD.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, PBF81 said:

 

I discount that Miami game, generally speaking, simply because of the unbearable and dangerous heat element.  We've all been in that kind of heat and worked in it to some extent, it becomes difficult to think straight under those circumstances, which were absurdly anomalous.  

 

Again, not in argument, just as an outlier in assessing or analyzing the team overall.  

 

 

I'm on about the playoff game. Where Josh was below par. Not a disaster, but off his best and bad turnovers. 

[Royale with Cheese]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Don't disagree the D played badly. But it was one of your points that Josh hides the flaws when we win and I think people who make that argument have to recognise the other side too. The 2021 KC game where Josh played brilliantly and we lost and the 2022 Miami game where Josh played relatively poorly and we won aside our playoff record in the McDermott-Allen era is almost directly tied to how Josh plays. So if Josh gets the credit when it goes well he also has to shoulder the blame when he plays like a zombie and even Diggs (who he has said publicly is the guy who can normally reach him) couldn't get through to him on the sideline and he was just sitting there staring into middle distance. 

 

The off coverage thing has been done to death. I know fans hate soft coverage, but it isn't always the wrong call and wasn't even always wrong in that game. On gameplans generally.... I mean it shouldn't be a surprise most fans don't find them obvious. Most fans don't know what they are watching (and that's fine you can enjoy the game of football without it). I don't think there was a consistent gameplan issue in 2022. Though happy to have my memory jogged if people want to discuss specific incidents. 

 

 

 

When I saw that live, it looked to me Josh was afraid to make eye contact with Diggs.  He could hear him but wasn't going to acknowledge him.

 

I was very pissed how our DL played that day.  I was pissed at Davis for dropping that deep ball down the sideline....we were still in that game.

But with Allen, it was disappointing.  Nothing was right that day and Allen was a major part of it.

 

I think it was a big tell when Allen stated "I've never been more focused on football in my life" a few weeks ago.  

 

[PBF81]

2 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Was our home playoff game against the Ravens not a big game?

 

it’s hard to take arguments seriously when we act like it’s never ever been done by McD.

 

One game, in nine, and a divisional game?  Against a team with hardly any offensive talent?  

 

How about the one before it or after it?  

 

It's hard to take an argument seriously when someone uses an exception to formulate a position.