Who does Terry Pegula turn to for counsel when it comes to evaluating Beane & McDermott?

[Mat68]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:49 PM, WhoTom said:

 

So he'll get fired and then win a SB somewhere else?

 

 

 

 

Maybe.  Did Tampa make the right right decision?  Do the Colts have any regrets only winning 1 with Manning?  
 

In todays internet climate this conversation may have too much nuance.   Mcdermott is arguably the best coach in Bills history.  I like him and has alot of great qualities.  If Buffalo comes up short again who takes the responsibility.  Allen isn't going anywhere.  There is pressure on the coaching staff.  
 

I dont think its hyperbolic to point out other coaches with long leashes have had deeper playoff runs to justify it.  It would take a move for some of the caliber of McVay for it to make sense.

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

We were completely unprepared heading out of the tunnel for that game, it reminds me of how we emerged in the 2nd-half of the last Super Bowl we were in, before getting throttled 24-0 after coming back out with a 13-6 lead.  And now it's out that we had the wrong cleats while Cincy, on a road field, was fully prepared in that way.  And it seems that they could have made those changes on the sideline even.  

 

I will add to what you said, in terms of coaching, IMO McD & Co. is among the worst at adjusting in-game than any we've ever had, and that's a huge part of coaching.  

 

 

I thought early on that McD was pretty good at his halftime adjustments. However, the last few years McD and company have been poor at in game adjustments. Imho, he's been outclassed by a wide margin in the playoffs. 

 

After several playoff disappointments the fans really need to take a critical look at McD and the other coaches. Losing Fraizer is a positive and that was long overdue. 

 

I'm not sold that McD can lead this team to the Super Bowl. Thus far, he's shown us the opposite with several disappointing playoff loses. Sure, he deserves another chance based on his playoff run. The pressure is mounting for more success. The disappointment on the Bills players faces was clearly evident. They expect much much more. 

 

At some point with an elite franchise QB the playoff appearances with early exits aren't enough. Agree?

 

Not sure it's fair to say Super Bowl appearence or bust. That's a really tall order for any organization. Nevertheless, this regime has had 5 years of Allen and truthfully haven't even sniffed a Super Bowl appearance. Coming up short year after year certainly leaves a bitter taste in this fan's mouth. I keep asking myself what does it take for this team to win it all? Frankly, I don't have the answers and apparently Beane and McD don't either...

Edited May 21, 2023 by newcam2012

[Buffalo716]

8 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

You play the percentages and the odds. Clearly, the best decision was to squib or pooch the ball because the top priority was to burn the clock.

 

Kicking it into the end zone was never the right call because it can't take seconds of the clock. It's really that simplistic. Romo live was screaming for the squib kick. 

 

Also, Bass had been pooching the ball effectively all season. The coaches have to be able to trust their kickers to execute this kick. I firmly believe Bass was up to the task.

 

Your woulda or coulda really doesn't justify how bad the Bills blew it. The excuse McD have for didn't give was even more reason to believe he choked it. No way on earth should there be any miscommunication. 

It’s really easy to play devils advocate when you have been around the game at a high-level for 30 years

 

Also pooching the ball up high during the regular season… And during the postseason are completely different

 

During the regular season.. a pooch kick That reaches the 12 yard line… will be caught and returned … Just for the chance

 

In the postseason that same pooch kick , the returner will let go over his head

 

And if it’s a very high pooch to the 23 or 25… it will just be fair caught 

 

It’s not as simple as just pooch it up … Because if you really pooch it high they will get it at the 20-25 

 

And if it’s a little too deep they will let it roll into the back of the end zone

 

It’s not as easy as doing it in madden

 

The problem is none of the teams we played during the regular season were bass pooched it up let it go over their head … They all caught it at the 10 and returned it

 

But in a true game saving scenario to save clock they’re all letting it over their heads into the end zone at that yard line 

 

And a squib you’re probably getting the ball between the 20-30… And you can fall on it and take no time off

 

It’s not a guaranteed win if we did any of those

 

The real problem was the execution on defense…

In arrowhead last October we scored with 16 seconds left at half… Squib kicked it !!… surprise surprise … And they still got into field goal range with 12 seconds

 

its not fool proof 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Buffalo716

[PBF81]

32 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I thought early on that McD was pretty good at his halftime adjustments. However, the last few years McD and company have been poor at in game adjustments. Imho, he's been outclassed by a wide margin in the playoffs. 

 

After several playoff disappointments the fans really need to take a critical look at McD and the other coaches. Losing Fraizer is a positive and that was long overdue. 

 

I'm not sold that McD can lead this team to the Super Bowl. Thus far, he's shown us the opposite with several disappointing playoff loses. Sure, he deserves another chance based on his playoff run. The pressure is mounting for more success. The disappointment on the Bills players faces was clearly evident. They expect much much more. 

 

Well, and here's where Gunner and I disagree, but I run with verifiable things, yet he claims that they're all simply ad hominem against McD.  I don't have anything against McD, and unlike so many other people, I had no idea what he'd bring as his results as a DC in Carolina were a completely mixed bag with overall below-average performance, and given that he had one of the best MLBs in the game at the time, and some other talent better than we have here on D, it also didn't make me giddy with glee.  But IMO we've seen enough to be able to point out the specifics, which relative to the playoffs, are ... 

 

In '17 we barely made the playoffs on an unlikely play by Cincy on the last play of the game, achieving the same record that two other coaches during the drought had, and only one game better than three other seasons, and with help from another team in the most unlikely manner otherwise.  Still, indisputably a playoff appearance, where we lost to the Blake Bortle led Jags on an otherwise pretty offensively bereft team resulting in a loss to a low-end playoff team with a record only one better than ours.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

'18 was a whiff at 6-10.  

 

In '19 we lost to a mediocre playoff team, again in the wild card round, unable to do much against the Texans' 19th ranked D, and with our 2nd ranked Defense allowing their 14th ranked offense to take us to OT and beat us.  The following week the Texans were obliterated by the Chiefs.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

In '20, prior to our getting hammered by the Chiefs, our 2nd ranked D allowed the Colts and their 16th ranked offense led by Rivers to outplay our offense in just about every category in a game that we barely won in the wild-card round while being outplayed otherwise.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  The Ravens game was a solid coaching effort, but in being honest, the Ravens offense essentially was Jackson.  

 

In '21 we hammered NE led by Mac Jones and a team that otherwise had no offensive talent worthy of note and certainly nothing above-average, and in a game in which Allen simply went off as he does occasionally.  We followed that up with "13 Seconds."  Not only is there nothing special about coaching there, but coaching cost us that game, indisputably.  

 

This past season, '22, we barely beat a Skylar Thompson led Fins, whose 11th ranked offense (w/ Tagovailoa) put up 24 points on us, in the cold and snow.  Then we were embarrassed by the Bengals with horrifically questionable defensive play-calling and a complete inability to do much of anything offensively.  Excuses aside, there certainly wasn't anything special in coaching, particularly considering that McD simply didn't have the team prepared to play.  

 

In round-up, the teams we've beaten in the playoffs featured the following QBs:  Jackson, Rivers whom we barely beat, Jones, and Thompson.  We've lost to KC twice and Cincy once, two of those times due to egregious coaching errors, or whatever we choose to call them.  

 

That doesn't exactly scream out Super Bowl somewhere down the line.  

 

 

Quote

At some point with an elite franchise QB the playoff appearances with early exits aren't enough. Agree?

 

Yes, agree.  

 

Quote

Not sure it's fair to say Super Bowl appearence or bust. That's a really tall order for any organization. Nevertheless, this regime has had 5 years of Allen and truthfully haven't even sniffed a Super Bowl appearance. Coming up short year after year certainly leaves a bitter taste in this fan's mouth. I keep asking myself what does it take for this team to win it all? Frankly, I don't have the answers and apparently Beane and McD don't either...

 

It's not the losses that bother me.  As with the Super Bowls, it wasn't losing to the Skins that bothered me, as they were clearly a better team pretty much all around, except at QB where the Hogs kept the entirely immobile Rypien clean.  Kelly was clearly the better QB.  But it was more the Giants and at least the second Dallas SB that bothered me, because we were the better team, we were simply outplayed and outcoached.  

 

I have little problem with losing as long as we play our best and either get beaten by some completely unexpected monumental performance, or more generally speaking by a better team with better talent and better coaching.  We haven't done that.  We couldn't compete with KC in '20, in '21 "13 Seconds" says all we need to know, and to dismiss that is remiss, and last season the only way things could have been worse for us is losing to Skylar Thompson, or us forfeiting the Cincy game in the playoffs too.  

 

I see absolutely nothing indicative that McD & Co. are poised to all of a sudden for no explicable or apparent reason to beat KC, Cincy, and now even possibly another team or two in the AFC playoffs.  Anyone that claims that they do is reaching.  Doesn't mean we won't, all I'm saying is that there's no evidence that there's a good likelihood of it occurring.  

 

 

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I disagree on accountability. He HAS taken accountability for it. Multiple times. What he hasn't done is explained in finite detail what the mistakes were or the process behind them. He is entitled to keep that in house.

 

BTW, that's not taking accountability for it.  Ignoring it in pressers until the issue is forced by the media days afterwards, if not weeks afterwards.  

 

Either way, he failed where any average fan knew better, that's the takeaway here.  As such, it's certainly fair to question other aspects of his coaching, again, particularly after this past season's playoffs.  

 

You'll see as the season progresses if we fail to win the division or struggle again in the playoffs failing to make the AFC CG.  National media is already over this.  We love it when they say positive things, but when they don't, then all of a sudden "they don't know what they're talking about."  LOL  

 

 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

It’s really easy to play devils advocate when you have been around the game at a high-level for 30 years

 

Also pooching the ball up high during the regular season… And during the postseason are completely different

 

During the regular season.. a pooch kick That reaches the 12 yard line… will be caught and returned … Just for the chance

 

In the postseason that same pooch kick , the returner will let go over his head

 

And if it’s a very high pooch to the 23 or 25… it will just be fair caught 

 

It’s not as simple as just pooch it up … Because if you really pooch it high they will get it at the 20-25 

 

And if it’s a little too deep they will let it roll into the back of the end zone

 

It’s not as easy as doing it in madden

 

The problem is none of the teams we played during the regular season were bass pooched it up let it go over their head … They all caught it at the 10 and returned it

 

But in a true game saving scenario to save clock they’re all letting it over their heads into the end zone at that yard line 

 

And a squib you’re probably getting the ball between the 20-30… And you can fall on it and take no time off

 

It’s not a guaranteed win if we did any of those

 

The real problem was the execution on defense…

In arrowhead last October we scored with 16 seconds left at half… Squib kicked it !!… surprise surprise … And they still got into field goal range with 12 seconds

 

its not fool proof 

 

Not saying either kick was fool proof. Saying the right decision was a squib or pooch kick. You have to give yourself a chance to burn seconds off the clock. 

 

Kicking it in the end zone was flat out the incorrect decision. Can you agree? 

 

Yes the defense and coaching was pathetic.

Edited May 21, 2023 by newcam2012

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, and here's where Gunner and I disagree, but I run with verifiable things, yet he claims that they're all simply ad hominem against McD.  I don't have anything against McD, and unlike so many other people, I had no idea what he'd bring as his results as a DC in Carolina were a completely mixed bag with overall below-average performance, and given that he had one of the best MLBs in the game at the time, and some other talent better than we have here on D, it also didn't make me giddy with glee.  But IMO we've seen enough to be able to point out the specifics, which relative to the playoffs, are ... 

 

In '17 we barely made the playoffs on an unlikely play by Cincy on the last play of the game, achieving the same record that two other coaches during the drought had, and only one game better than three other seasons, and with help from another team in the most unlikely manner otherwise.  Still, indisputably a playoff appearance, where we lost to the Blake Bortle led Jags on an otherwise pretty offensively bereft team resulting in a loss to a low-end playoff team with a record only one better than ours.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

'18 was a whiff at 6-10.  

 

In '19 we lost to a mediocre playoff team, again in the wild card round, unable to do much against the Texans' 19th ranked D, and with our 2nd ranked Defense allowing their 14th ranked offense to take us to OT and beat us.  The following week the Texans were obliterated by the Chiefs.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

In '20, prior to our getting hammered by the Chiefs, our 2nd ranked D allowed the Colts and their 16th ranked offense led by Rivers to outplay our offense in just about every category in a game that we barely won in the wild-card round while being outplayed otherwise.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  The Ravens game was a solid coaching effort, but in being honest, the Ravens offense essentially was Jackson.  

 

In '21 we hammered NE led by Mac Jones and a team that otherwise had no offensive talent worthy of note and certainly nothing above-average, and in a game in which Allen simply went off as he does occasionally.  We followed that up with "13 Seconds."  Not only is there nothing special about coaching there, but coaching cost us that game, indisputably.  

 

This past season, '22, we barely beat a Skylar Thompson led Fins, whose 11th ranked offense (w/ Tagovailoa) put up 24 points on us, in the cold and snow.  Then we were embarrassed by the Bengals with horrifically questionable defensive play-calling and a complete inability to do much of anything offensively.  Excuses aside, there certainly wasn't anything special in coaching, particularly considering that McD simply didn't have the team prepared to play.  

 

In round-up, the teams we've beaten in the playoffs featured the following QBs:  Jackson, Rivers whom we barely beat, Jones, and Thompson.  We've lost to KC twice and Cincy once, two of those times due to egregious coaching errors, or whatever we choose to call them.  

 

That doesn't exactly scream out Super Bowl somewhere down the line.  

 

 

 

Yes, agree.  

 

 

It's not the losses that bother me.  As with the Super Bowls, it wasn't losing to the Skins that bothered me, as they were clearly a better team pretty much all around, except at QB where the Hogs kept the entirely immobile Rypien clean.  Kelly was clearly the better QB.  But it was more the Giants and at least the second Dallas SB that bothered me, because we were the better team, we were simply outplayed and outcoached.  

 

I have little problem with losing as long as we play our best and either get beaten by some completely unexpected monumental performance, or more generally speaking by a better team with better talent and better coaching.  We haven't done that.  We couldn't compete with KC in '20, in '21 "13 Seconds" says all we need to know, and to dismiss that is remiss, and last season the only way things could have been worse for us is losing to Skylar Thompson, or us forfeiting the Cincy game in the playoffs too.  

 

I see absolutely nothing indicative that McD & Co. are poised to all of a sudden for no explicable or apparent reason to beat KC, Cincy, and now even possibly another team or two in the AFC playoffs.  Anyone that claims that they do is reaching.  Doesn't mean we won't, all I'm saying is that there's no evidence that there's a good likelihood of it occurring.  

 

 

 

BTW, that's not taking accountability for it.  Ignoring it in pressers until the issue is forced by the media days afterwards, if not weeks afterwards.  

 

Either way, he failed where any average fan knew better, that's the takeaway here.  As such, it's certainly fair to question other aspects of his coaching, again, particularly after this past season's playoffs.  

 

You'll see as the season progresses if we fail to win the division or struggle again in the playoffs failing to make the AFC CG.  National media is already over this.  We love it when they say positive things, but when they don't, then all of a sudden "they don't know what they're talking about."  LOL  

 

 

Really thoughtful and detailed post. 

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Well, and here's where Gunner and I disagree, but I run with verifiable things, yet he claims that they're all simply ad hominem against McD.  I don't have anything against McD, and unlike so many other people, I had no idea what he'd bring as his results as a DC in Carolina were a completely mixed bag with overall below-average performance, and given that he had one of the best MLBs in the game at the time, and some other talent better than we have here on D, it also didn't make me giddy with glee.  But IMO we've seen enough to be able to point out the specifics, which relative to the playoffs, are ... 

 

In '17 we barely made the playoffs on an unlikely play by Cincy on the last play of the game, achieving the same record that two other coaches during the drought had, and only one game better than three other seasons, and with help from another team in the most unlikely manner otherwise.  Still, indisputably a playoff appearance, where we lost to the Blake Bortle led Jags on an otherwise pretty offensively bereft team resulting in a loss to a low-end playoff team with a record only one better than ours.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

'18 was a whiff at 6-10.  

 

In '19 we lost to a mediocre playoff team, again in the wild card round, unable to do much against the Texans' 19th ranked D, and with our 2nd ranked Defense allowing their 14th ranked offense to take us to OT and beat us.  The following week the Texans were obliterated by the Chiefs.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  

 

In '20, prior to our getting hammered by the Chiefs, our 2nd ranked D allowed the Colts and their 16th ranked offense led by Rivers to outplay our offense in just about every category in a game that we barely won in the wild-card round while being outplayed otherwise.  I see nothing special in coaching there.  The Ravens game was a solid coaching effort, but in being honest, the Ravens offense essentially was Jackson.  

 

In '21 we hammered NE led by Mac Jones and a team that otherwise had no offensive talent worthy of note and certainly nothing above-average, and in a game in which Allen simply went off as he does occasionally.  We followed that up with "13 Seconds."  Not only is there nothing special about coaching there, but coaching cost us that game, indisputably.  

 

This past season, '22, we barely beat a Skylar Thompson led Fins, whose 11th ranked offense (w/ Tagovailoa) put up 24 points on us, in the cold and snow.  Then we were embarrassed by the Bengals with horrifically questionable defensive play-calling and a complete inability to do much of anything offensively.  Excuses aside, there certainly wasn't anything special in coaching, particularly considering that McD simply didn't have the team prepared to play.  

 

In round-up, the teams we've beaten in the playoffs featured the following QBs:  Jackson, Rivers whom we barely beat, Jones, and Thompson.  We've lost to KC twice and Cincy once, two of those times due to egregious coaching errors, or whatever we choose to call them.  

 

That doesn't exactly scream out Super Bowl somewhere down the line.  

 

 

 

Yes, agree.  

 

 

It's not the losses that bother me.  As with the Super Bowls, it wasn't losing to the Skins that bothered me, as they were clearly a better team pretty much all around, except at QB where the Hogs kept the entirely immobile Rypien clean.  Kelly was clearly the better QB.  But it was more the Giants and at least the second Dallas SB that bothered me, because we were the better team, we were simply outplayed and outcoached.  

 

I have little problem with losing as long as we play our best and either get beaten by some completely unexpected monumental performance, or more generally speaking by a better team with better talent and better coaching.  We haven't done that.  We couldn't compete with KC in '20, in '21 "13 Seconds" says all we need to know, and to dismiss that is remiss, and last season the only way things could have been worse for us is losing to Skylar Thompson, or us forfeiting the Cincy game in the playoffs too.  

 

I see absolutely nothing indicative that McD & Co. are poised to all of a sudden for no explicable or apparent reason to beat KC, Cincy, and now even possibly another team or two in the AFC playoffs.  Anyone that claims that they do is reaching.  Doesn't mean we won't, all I'm saying is that there's no evidence that there's a good likelihood of it occurring.  

 

 

 

BTW, that's not taking accountability for it.  Ignoring it in pressers until the issue is forced by the media days afterwards, if not weeks afterwards.  

 

Either way, he failed where any average fan knew better, that's the takeaway here.  As such, it's certainly fair to question other aspects of his coaching, again, particularly after this past season's playoffs.  

 

You'll see as the season progresses if we fail to win the division or struggle again in the playoffs failing to make the AFC CG.  National media is already over this.  We love it when they say positive things, but when they don't, then all of a sudden "they don't know what they're talking about."  LOL  

 

 

McD might be akin to Marvin Lewis or Marty Schottenheimer. I don't know. He's an admirable human being and he and Beane have transformed the organization into an exemplary franchise, so you root for that. It would be satisfying to see good people achieve victory at the highest level. But right now post-season success is certainly questionable. Where I see daylight for hope is that finally they made a greater commitment to address at least the IOL and I believe the FA additions and Kincaid overall make the offense potentially much more dangerous. They should certainly be better than last year with Allen presumably healthy. Dorsey has to be better, but I don't assume he won't make some leap from a first year OC. This league is offense oriented, so if things go well there, McD only has to hold the fort on D and I think he can do that. All the same, another year that ends in disappointment will cause a crisis, imo. I am praying for Sean to do well, but I would have Ben Johnson's number on speed dial just in case.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Dr. Who

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

McD might be akin to Marvin Lewis or Marty Schottenheimer. I don't know. He's an admirable human being and he and Beane have transformed the organization into an exemplary franchise, so you root for that. It would be satisfying to see good people achieve victory at the highest level. But right now post-season success is certainly questionable. Where I see daylight for hope is that finally they made a greater commitment to address at least the IOL and I believe the FA additions and Kincaid overall make the offense potentially much more dangerous. They should certainly be better than last year with Allen presumably healthy. Dorsey has to be better, but I don't assume he won't make some leap from a first year OC. This league is offense oriented, so if things go well there, McD only has to hold the fort on D and I think he can do that. All the same, another year that ends in disappointment will cause a crisis, imo. I am praying for Sean to do well, but I would have Ben Johnson's number on speed dial just in case.

Solid thoughts! I agree it's not hard to root for McD and Beane. Both seem to be great individuals on and off the field. Indeed, they have turned around a fumbling franchise to a solid playoff team and super bowl contender. Accolades they do deserve. It would be very foolish not to recognize their accomplishments. 

 

However, it's five years in and imho it's been more than time for the team to take the "next step." Back to back hugely disappointing playoff losses just can't be glossed over. Not implying you are doing so.

 

Agree the Bills recent offensive moves look promising. At least it's a change of direction sort of speak as the defense has been seemingly more emphasized. 

 

This season should really be a "tell" of the Bills future progression. The division is tighter than ever and other teams are seemingly better, equal, or nearly equal to the Bills. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. 

 

I can't help but to temper my expectations for this upcoming season. Perhaps that's a natural reaction to the disappointing ending of last couple of seasons. It feels like it's going to be a dog fight game by game with such a difficult schedule.

 

As time passes, I lose more and more confidence in the coaching staff. Perhaps that's unwarranted?  Coaching matters and elite playoff coaches have out dueled McD and company by a country mile. 

 

Nevertheless, the Bills are still favorites to win their division and are one of the teams in Super Bowl discussions. It certainly can happen. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by newcam2012

[Dr. Who]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Solid thoughts! I agree it's not hard to root for McD and Beane. Both seem to be great individuals on and off the field. Indeed, they have turned around a fumbling franchise to a solid playoff team and super bowl contender. Accolades they do deserve. It would be very foolish not to recognize their accomplishments. 

 

However, it's five years in and imho it's been more than time for the team to take the "next step." Back to back hugely disappointing playoff losses just can't be glossed over. Not implying you are doing so.

 

Agree the Bills recent offensive moves look promising. At least it's a change of direction sort of speak as the defense has been seemingly more emphasized. 

 

This season should really be a "tell" of the Bills future progression. The division is tighter than ever and other teams are seemingly better, equal, or nearly equal to the Bills. There doesn't seem to be much margin for error. 

 

I can't help but to temper my expectations for this upcoming season. Perhaps that's a natural reaction to the disappointing ending of last couple of seasons. It feels like it's going to be a dog fight game by game with such a difficult schedule.

 

As time passes, I lose more and more confidence in the coaching staff. Perhaps that's unwarranted?  Coaching matters and elite playoff coaches have out dueled McD and company by a country mile. 

 

Nevertheless, the Bills are still favorites to win their division and are one of the teams in Super Bowl discussions. It certainly can happen. 

I am more optimistic with regards to the division. I think last year the team had to overcome a truly outlandish combination of tragedies, injury, and weather related issues. It's remarkable they managed 13 wins including an 8 game win streak. There was tremendous fortitude and determination involved. Clearly, they ran out of gas by the end, regardless of questions regarding coaching. I am a skeptic on Rodgers, though perhaps he will surprise. I'm not granting the division is up for grabs in the sense that the Phins or the Jets ought to be considered equal competitors. (Funny how the Pats* are hardly in the conversation, enjoy it Chowderheads.) We are still the best team and that is mainly because Josh Allen is easily the best qb when healthy which I don't think he was for much of last season. It is a tough schedule, but everyone in our division has a tough schedule. Where it hurts is when one is jockeying for the #1 seed and we have road games against both the Bengals and the Chiefs to boot, how nice. 

[Bills Fan in MD]

He's texted me a few times but I just haven't had a chance to return them.  Sorry.

[PBF81]

On 5/19/2023 at 7:06 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Nobody is saying McDermott is a great coach. He has to get it done to be a great coach. He is a very good football coach though. If the Bills let him go he would have offers that same hiring season to go straight back in if that is what he wanted to do. 

 

Maybe McDermott is Marty Schottenheimer mark II. But Marty was a very good football coach too. And the Bills haven't stalled at the wild card round while Josh has been an elite level QB. They last lost in the wildcard in 2019 and Josh was NOT at the elite level at that stage. 

 

And guess what... Mahomes and Burrow are elite too.

 

Diggs - 9

Davis - 6

Harty - 5

 

So where are we going with this?

 

Next up, RB and TE.  

 

Granted, Kincaid is a TBD, but then Knox, Cook, and whomever you think the next best RB is, presumably Harris.  

 

Knox - 

Kincaid - TBD 

Cook - 

Harris - 

 

 

 

 

[PBF81]

16 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

McD might be akin to Marvin Lewis or Marty Schottenheimer. I don't know. He's an admirable human being and he and Beane have transformed the organization into an exemplary franchise, so you root for that. It would be satisfying to see good people achieve victory at the highest level. But right now post-season success is certainly questionable. Where I see daylight for hope is that finally they made a greater commitment to address at least the IOL and I believe the FA additions and Kincaid overall make the offense potentially much more dangerous. They should certainly be better than last year with Allen presumably healthy. Dorsey has to be better, but I don't assume he won't make some leap from a first year OC. This league is offense oriented, so if things go well there, McD only has to hold the fort on D and I think he can do that. All the same, another year that ends in disappointment will cause a crisis, imo. I am praying for Sean to do well, but I would have Ben Johnson's number on speed dial just in case.

 

Let's discuss the bolded sentences.  

 

He's an admirable human being and he and Beane have transformed the organization into an exemplary franchise, so you root for that.

 

I suppose, but is that why we hired them, because they were "admirable human beings"?  This is a business, no?   We're often reminded of that, typically when it's convenient for many fans.  When they hired McD, was the buzz that he was such an admirable person and that's just what we needed, win or lose the big games?  I seem to recall most talking about how they hoped he would be the one to bring us a championship.  Here's the thing, once we get into the "admirable human being" stuff, that's getting into "but she's got a great personality" territory.   Andy Reid, Nick Sirianni, Zac Taylor, and Doug Pedersen all seem like very admirable human beings too.  But they don't botch games like McD does.  McD doesn't get paid millions to be an admirable human being.  

 

I've been consistent in taking the position that without Allen we could easily subtract 4 wins/season off of our win totals.  No one has argued that other than using tangents.  IMO it's more and that 4 is the floor.  It's been an average of 4 with Belichick w/o Brady, and no one's going to argue that McD is as good as Belichick, not rationally anyway.  Either way, subtracting 4 wins from our win totals the past three seasons would have yielded 9-7, 7-10, and 9-7 and no divisional titles and zero playoff appearances.  It also would have led to an entirely different narrative on McBeane.  

 

Levy was among the best people that ever graced the NFL, unfortunately he simply didn't have what it took in the biggest of games.  

 

I will also disagree that Beane transformed the organization other than to draft Allen.  I'm not sure that people realize that our streak of winless playoffs would have continued w/o Allen.  We've barely beaten some very average teams in the playoffs with Allen, and most barely.  

 

 

Where I see daylight for hope is that finally they made a greater commitment to address at least the IOL and I believe the FA additions and Kincaid overall make the offense potentially much more dangerous.

 

Let's keep in mind that it's taken Beane 6 offseasons to finally [seemingly] adequately address the offensive line, and seemingly so because his hand was forced, not due to good planning.  It does appear to be much better, but again, we're relying on a rookie and I've seen conflicting reviews of McGovern.   I myself haven't watched him play or haven't paid attention when I have, so I cannot comment on him in an educated manner yet.  

 

Here's the thing, we've had relatively easy schedules the past three seasons, which obviously aided our regular season record, this season it toughens up significantly, particularly on the slate of QBs and offenses that we face.  I see our defense regressing big time, particularly with our LB situation.  But since it's been the D that's been the problem in the playoffs, I'm not sure that we improve.  It's not reasonable to expect Allen to lead the team to 30-some points (or more) to win games on a regular basis.  

 

If I had to guess now, I'd guess that we end up with a very average defense this season and one worse than any that have advanced deeply into the playoffs.  

 

Anyway, you say that another year ending in disappointment will result in a crisis.  LOL  I won't disagree, but how do you define "disappointment"?  

 

I would say that if we either don't win the division or cannot manage to advance past the divisional round, then it won't be good and the heat will start coming in large waves.  I just realized that I've assumed we make the playoffs.   I cannot imagine not making them with Allen, but if that were to happen then I would definitely say a crisis.  And if for some reason Allen sustains a serious injury that keeps him out, if we cannot be at least .500 with Allen or even Barkley, then that pretty much lets us know how good McD would be w/o Allen.  

 

I seriously hope that part of Allen's new focus is pocket passing and that correspondingly our OL really is significantly better and that the starters can stay healthy.  

 

 

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, PBF81 said:

 

Let's discuss the bolded sentences.  

 

He's an admirable human being and he and Beane have transformed the organization into an exemplary franchise, so you root for that.

 

I suppose, but is that why we hired them, because they were "admirable human beings"?  This is a business, no?   We're often reminded of that, typically when it's convenient for many fans.  When they hired McD, was the buzz that he was such an admirable person and that's just what we needed, win or lose the big games?  I seem to recall most talking about how they hoped he would be the one to bring us a championship.  Here's the thing, once we get into the "admirable human being" stuff, that's getting into "but she's got a great personality" territory.   Andy Reid, Nick Sirianni, Zac Taylor, and Doug Pedersen all seem like very admirable human beings too.  But they don't botch games like McD does.  McD doesn't get paid millions to be an admirable human being.  

 

I've been consistent in taking the position that without Allen we could easily subtract 4 wins/season off of our win totals.  No one has argued that other than using tangents.  IMO it's more and that 4 is the floor.  It's been an average of 4 with Belichick w/o Brady, and no one's going to argue that McD is as good as Belichick, not rationally anyway.  Either way, subtracting 4 wins from our win totals the past three seasons would have yielded 9-7, 7-10, and 9-7 and no divisional titles and zero playoff appearances.  It also would have led to an entirely different narrative on McBeane.  

 

Levy was among the best people that ever graced the NFL, unfortunately he simply didn't have what it took in the biggest of games.  

 

I will also disagree that Beane transformed the organization other than to draft Allen.  I'm not sure that people realize that our streak of winless playoffs would have continued w/o Allen.  We've barely beaten some very average teams in the playoffs with Allen, and most barely.  

 

 

Where I see daylight for hope is that finally they made a greater commitment to address at least the IOL and I believe the FA additions and Kincaid overall make the offense potentially much more dangerous.

 

Let's keep in mind that it's taken Beane 6 offseasons to finally [seemingly] adequately address the offensive line, and seemingly so because his hand was forced, not due to good planning.  It does appear to be much better, but again, we're relying on a rookie and I've seen conflicting reviews of McGovern.   I myself haven't watched him play or haven't paid attention when I have, so I cannot comment on him in an educated manner yet.  

 

Here's the thing, we've had relatively easy schedules the past three seasons, which obviously aided our regular season record, this season it toughens up significantly, particularly on the slate of QBs and offenses that we face.  I see our defense regressing big time, particularly with our LB situation.  But since it's been the D that's been the problem in the playoffs, I'm not sure that we improve.  It's not reasonable to expect Allen to lead the team to 30-some points (or more) to win games on a regular basis.  

 

If I had to guess now, I'd guess that we end up with a very average defense this season and one worse than any that have advanced deeply into the playoffs.  

 

Anyway, you say that another year ending in disappointment will result in a crisis.  LOL  I won't disagree, but how do you define "disappointment"?  

 

I would say that if we either don't win the division or cannot manage to advance past the divisional round, then it won't be good and the heat will start coming in large waves.  I just realized that I've assumed we make the playoffs.   I cannot imagine not making them with Allen, but if that were to happen then I would definitely say a crisis.  And if for some reason Allen sustains a serious injury that keeps him out, if we cannot be at least .500 with Allen or even Barkley, then that pretty much lets us know how good McD would be w/o Allen.  

 

I seriously hope that part of Allen's new focus is pocket passing and that correspondingly our OL really is significantly better and that the starters can stay healthy.  

 

 

1) I did not say or imply, I believe, that high character is somehow an alternative measuring stick to wins and losses. Just as a really nice guy who is bad at qb (J P Losman -- the name alone should have been a tell) isn't long for the NFL. But given a choice, you'd rather root for a winning team with exemplary character. I'd prefer my coach was not a little shady -- like Andy Reid, imo. (I don't want to root for a team that is routinely overlooking deep personal flaws just because a fella can play ball.) So all that goes to an element that is secondary because if you don't win and ultimately if you don't win in the playoffs, you're missing on the most fundamental criteria. I include Beane because I surmise he also has a hand in the deportment of the team, in addition to selecting players who exhibit character and intelligence above a certain threshold for the most part. Did you see the thread on Josh and Von surprising Jim Nantz and what Nantz had to say about Josh and the Bills? That stuff matters to me and I don't presume that is automatic and true for most teams in the league. (I could have said all that with much greater brevity, but you're a fella who likes prolix conversations so I figured, well, I write that way myself, so let's go.)

 

2) Personally, if the Bills don't make the playoffs or don't advance beyond the division round, I am making a call to Ben Johnson or some other superlative offensive coach. I think you really want your HC to be from that side of the ball in this era of football -- and you don't want to be routinely replacing your OC if you have success. I expect that Terry may give them yet another year if they crash-and-burn this season, but I would not. You ought to put yourself in the corner for invoking the bad juju of even mentioning serious injury at qb (see, I won't even write the name, didn't they teach you anything in school?) but such a disaster would doom most teams and would actually mitigate the expectations and so lower the heat should the team disappoint under those circumstances. 

[Gregg]

4 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

2 clowns on WGR this morning saying McDermott is safe no matter what happens because he’s “respected around the league” and that’s what Pegula wants 

 

What does "respected around the league" have to do with McDermott's job security with the Bills. As we have seen with the Sabres Terry will make changes at the GM/HC position if he feels it's necessary. I do think it would take a worst-case scenario type of season for changes to be made. Something like 4-13 for instance.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Gregg

[Dopey]

23 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I disagree on accountability. He HAS taken accountability for it. Multiple times. What he hasn't done is explained in finite detail what the mistakes were or the process behind them. He is entitled to keep that in house.

 

I'm done in this conversation. It is "I hate McDermott and I am gonna keep saying things that aren't true to try and support my position."

 

You think Gregg Williams was a better coach. Again, entitled to your view. But we are one million miles apart. 

 

You might be right that McDermott isn't the guy to win us a Superbowl. That is very possible. But some of the crap you have said around it is just that. 

 

It isn't worth continuing.

If Mcd doesn’t win a SB, that doesn’t make PBF81 right. You’re giving him too much credit. I think Mcd will win one. If he does, I wouldn’t boast about me saying so. We’re both guessing. 

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Dopey said:

If Mcd doesn’t win a SB, that doesn’t make PBF81 right. You’re giving him too much credit. I think Mcd will win one. If he does, I wouldn’t boast about me saying so. We’re both guessing. 

 

No it doesn't make the baseless claims around it right. That is why I have stopped engaging. But he would be right on that narrow point.

[GunnerBill]

20 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

Idk, they lost me too. I think Capaccio is just an extreme apologist whereas the Jeremy white guy is low IQ

 

Sal is a complete homer. He will change his opinion on something the moment the Bills position shifts. 

[BuffaloButt]

On 5/17/2023 at 9:19 PM, JoPoy88 said:

he turns to people definitely smarter than you. Settled? 

Can't we all just get along!!

[TBBills Fan]

48 minutes ago, BuffaloButt said:

Can't we all just get along!!

 

not since the internet

[PBF81]

5 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

1) I did not say or imply, I believe, that high character is somehow an alternative measuring stick to wins and losses. Just as a really nice guy who is bad at qb (J P Losman -- the name alone should have been a tell) isn't long for the NFL. But given a choice, you'd rather root for a winning team with exemplary character. I'd prefer my coach was not a little shady -- like Andy Reid, imo. (I don't want to root for a team that is routinely overlooking deep personal flaws just because a fella can play ball.) So all that goes to an element that is secondary because if you don't win and ultimately if you don't win in the playoffs, you're missing on the most fundamental criteria. I include Beane because I surmise he also has a hand in the deportment of the team, in addition to selecting players who exhibit character and intelligence above a certain threshold for the most part. Did you see the thread on Josh and Von surprising Jim Nantz and what Nantz had to say about Josh and the Bills? That stuff matters to me and I don't presume that is automatic and true for most teams in the league. (I could have said all that with much greater brevity, but you're a fella who likes prolix conversations so I figured, well, I write that way myself, so let's go.)

 

2) Personally, if the Bills don't make the playoffs or don't advance beyond the division round, I am making a call to Ben Johnson or some other superlative offensive coach. I think you really want your HC to be from that side of the ball in this era of football -- and you don't want to be routinely replacing your OC if you have success. I expect that Terry may give them yet another year if they crash-and-burn this season, but I would not. You ought to put yourself in the corner for invoking the bad juju of even mentioning serious injury at qb (see, I won't even write the name, didn't they teach you anything in school?) but such a disaster would doom most teams and would actually mitigate the expectations and so lower the heat should the team disappoint under those circumstances. 

 

Yeah, I didn't for a second believe that you put up being admirable as an alternative measuring stick as you put it.  Just sayin'. 

 

I don't think that Pegula does anything for years as long as they're posting winning records, and regardless of what kind of performances we turn in the playoffs.  

 

Remember, it's a business first and foremost.  Bills fans will fill the seats no matter what.  

 

I agree with what you wrote generally speaking.