Players that ARE HOF inductees but should NOT be

[The Frankish Reich]

16 hours ago, McMuffin said:

Joe Namath

When I was younger I definitely agreed. His career just didn't equal that of many of his contemporaries.

But as time went on, I changed my mind. It's the Hall of Fame. He was, well, really famous. And he did more than anyone else to establish the legitimacy of the AFL. Surely there's a few spaces in the Hall for guys who didn't dominate statistically but were nevertheless critical to the history of the NFL.

12 hours ago, mannc said:

I know he hasn't been inducted yet, but I'm still gonna say Frank Gore.  The guy had one great season.  Really good football player for a lot of years, but doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame.  

Yep. He's the anti-Namath. Really good for a really long time, but never the best at his position or one of the leading lights of the game.

It's that Bill James thing applied to football:

 

https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2014/11/9/7052865/baseball-hall-of-fame-bill-james-monitor-standards

 

He's the Harold Baines of the NFL.

[Billz4ever]

17 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Playing off the other thread asking who you thought should be in the HOF but isn't, this is the reverse.

 

Who is in the HOF that you don't believe belongs?

 

I'll start with Art Monk and Terrell Davis.

 

 

You're going to have to explain Art Monk to me.  Until Jerry Rice broke them, he owned a number of receiving records.

 

He held the record for receptions in a season until 1992.  Set the all-time record (at the time) for receptions at 820, first player to reach 900, and pushed it to 940 for his career.

 

Retired with most consecutive games with a catch (at the time 183).

 

Won 3 Super Bowls, 3x Pro Bowl selection, 2x All-Pro and named to NFL 1980 All-Decade Team.

 

One of the most dependable and consistent WR's in history.

 

He's basically Andre Reed with 3 rings.  

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by Billz4ever

[jaybills]

16 hours ago, McMuffin said:

Joe Namath

Totally agree with this guy

[K-9]

Having not been alive to see them play and having little to no understanding of the game in historical context, I’ll just pull up some Pro Football Reference pages and make grand pronunciations on who deserves to be in the Hall of Fame or not. 
 

Bronko Nagurski who? 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, Billz4ever said:

 

 

You're going to have to explain Art Monk to me.  Until Jerry Rice broke them, he owned a number of receiving records.

 

He held the record for receptions in a season until 1992.  Set the all-time record (at the time) for receptions at 820, first player to reach 900, and pushed it to 940 for his career.

 

Retired with most consecutive games with a catch (at the time 183).

 

Won 3 Super Bowls, 3x Pro Bowl selection, 2x All-Pro and named to NFL 1980 All-Decade Team.

 

One of the most dependable and consistent WR's in history.

 

He's basically Andre Reed with 3 rings.  

 

 

To me Art Monk was basically a possession receiver. A very good one that caught a lot of 10-12 yard passes and was very consistent over a lot of years. He belongs in the hall of very good, maybe even very very good, but not great.

 

Not a receiver you ever thought to yourself "Oh my God, we have to stop him or he is going to destroy us" the same way you did Rice or Moss or Sterling Sharpe or even Andre Reed.

15 hours ago, Roundybout said:

 

Terrell Davis carried Denver to two Super Bowls. 

 

 

if anything, it makes Elway look bad...

 

His career was too short to really qualify in my eyes. Part of being great is also the ability to maintain it over a longer period of time. Injuries or not, the NFL has plenty of players who were great for a few years period and then faded into obscurity. The assumption was made that wouldn't have happened to him, but how do we know that?

 

And if you want to put someone who has their career cut short by injury in it would be Sterling Sharpe all day and twice on Sunday over Davis.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Big Turk

[Chicken Boo]

Being the clear cut best back in football for a time, rushing for 2,000 yards and leading the Broncos to back to back Super Bowl victories is a pretty strong case.

 

Elway would have no rings without Terrell Davis.  NONE!  

 

My pick of the many would be Richard Seymour.  How the hell is this guy a Hall of Famer?  And no way he should be inducted before Vince Wilfork.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[Billz4ever]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

To me Art Monk was basically a possession receiver. A very good one that caught a lot of 10-12 yard passes and was very consistent over a lot of years. He belongs in the hall of very good, maybe even very very good, but not great.

 

Not a receiver you ever thought to yourself "Oh my God, we have to stop him or he is going to destroy us" the same way you did Rice or Moss or Sterling Sharpe or even Andre Reed.

 

His prime and most of his career was played in the 80s, which is a different era of football than most of the receivers who played most of their career's post 1990.

 

To determine how great a player was in his era, you have to compare him to his peers at the time and how many "firsts" he had.  

 

When you do that with Monk, he's at the top of the era in which he played. You're going to be hard pressed to build a long list of names that were better than he was at the time IMO.

 

First player to record a touchdown reception in 15 consecutive seasons (1980-1994)

Consecutive seasons with at least 35 receptions (15, 1980–1994)

First player to record over 102+ receptions (106 in 1984 season) in a season before NFL rules changes prior to the 1990 season that ushered in the "pass happy era". Still, only three players in the next nine years collected 100 passes or more and only one (Sterling Sharpe in 1992 season) surpassed his total.

First player to record over 100+ receptions in the Super Bowl era

First player to record back-to-back seasons with 1,200 yards and 90 receptions (1984, 1985)

First player to reach 820 receptions in a career

First player to surpass 900 career receptions, finishing career with 940 (all-time record at the time)

First player to record at least one reception in 180 consecutive games

 

Always keeping in mind when the player played, you add his numbers, his "firsts", combined with the fact he won 3 rings, I really don't know how you leave him out.

[Captain Hindsight]

14 hours ago, Chaos said:

Probably the single biggest reason the NFL-AFL merger happened.  Impacted the game like no player before or since. 

Yup. His induction is more about the story than his stats. You can’t tell the history of the NFL without SB3 being a huge part of it 

[Billz4ever]

8 minutes ago, Chicken Boo said:

Being the clear cut best back in football for a time, rushing for 2,000 yards and leading the Broncos to back to back Super Bowl victories is a pretty strong case.

 

Elway would have no rings without Terrell Davis.  NONE!  

 

My pick of the many would be Richard Seymour.  How the hell is this guy a Hall of Famer?  And no way he should be inducted before Vince Wilfork.

 

Agreed. Longevity is really the only argument against him.  Only played seven seasons and only played a full season twice, but when he was healthy, he was a beast.

 

Also agree Elway retires ringless without him.

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Jerome Bettis is always on the top of the list for me for this discussion.

 

it definitely feels like there is a bias towards including Steelers sometimes. But I guess when you’re one of the largest fan bases in the entire league, it’s somewhat justified.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

14 hours ago, JPL7 said:

I second Frank Gore 

Also, Eli Manning (who will get in, unfortunately)

agree. Both really shouldn’t eventually be in the Hall of Fame but I expect both to be in for different reasons.

 

if Jerome Bettis is in the HOF, then, Frank Gore, sure as heck should be.

[BarleyNY]

14 hours ago, JPL7 said:

I second Frank Gore 

Also, Eli Manning (who will get in, unfortunately)

Eli Manning kept Tom Brady from winning two more Super Bowls. He can go in a second time AFAIC. 

[mannc]

51 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

 

 

His career was too short to really qualify in my eyes. Part of being great is also the ability to maintain it over a longer period of time. Injuries or not, the NFL has plenty of players who were great for a few years period and then faded into obscurity. The assumption was made that wouldn't have happened to him, but how do we know that?

 

And if you want to put someone who has their career cut short by injury in it would be Sterling Sharpe all day and twice on Sunday over Davis.

Terrell Davis had four one-thousand yard rushing seasons, including three seasons where he exceeded 2000 yards combined rushing-receiving and won two Super Bowls.  How many great seasons do you expect a Hall of Fame running back to have?  OJ Simpson really only had four great seasons, yet he was a first-ballot Hall of Famer and maybe the greatest running back of all time...I don't really understand why people take issue with Davis being in the Hall. 

[mannc]

18 hours ago, 947 said:

Agreed!

 

Namath played 13 seasons, and he less than 50% completion rate in 7 of them. He had more TDs than INTs in only 1 of his 13 seasons.

 

His best season was 4,004 yards, 26 TDs, 28 INTs, 52.5% Completion.

 

Career completion rate of 50.1% does not belong in the HOF, regardless of era. Career 173 TDs with... 220 INTs.

 

 

It was a different era.  Go look at the QB stats in the 70's...they were pathetic compared to now.  Joe Ferguson was considered a top-10 QB...his rookie year he started every game and threw for less than 1000 yards.  He had a 52% completion rate for his career...Namath won a Super Bowl--the first ever by an AFL team--and, as many have pointed out, he was a pivotal figure in the transformation of the NFL into what it is today.  

[BigDingus]

I know most people point to Terrell Davis's relatively short career as a ding against him, but I think the other Broncos RBs all putting up 1,000+ yards rushing seasons for years after him is the bigger ding.

 

1999: Orlando's Gary - 1,159 yards

2000: Mike Anderson - 1,487 yards

2001: Split Carries between Anderson (678 yards) & Davis (701 yards)

2002: Clinton Portis - 1,508 yards

2003: Clinton Portis - 1,591 yards

2004: Reuben Droughns - 1,240 yards

2005: Mike Anderson - 1,014 and Tatum Bell - 921 yards

2006: Tatum Bell - 1,026 and Mike Bell - 677

 

Not to discredit him entirely, he did have a 2,000 yard season after all, but everybody was able to run behind that line. 

[JPL7]

3 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

I know most people point to Terrell Davis's relatively short career as a ding against him, but I think the other Broncos RBs all putting up 1,000+ yards rushing seasons for years after him is the bigger ding.

 

1999: Orlando's Gary - 1,159 yards

2000: Mike Anderson - 1,487 yards

2001: Split Carries between Anderson (678 yards) & Davis (701 yards)

2002: Clinton Portis - 1,508 yards

2003: Clinton Portis - 1,591 yards

2004: Reuben Droughns - 1,240 yards

2005: Mike Anderson - 1,014 and Tatum Bell - 921 yards

2006: Tatum Bell - 1,026 and Mike Bell - 677

 

Not to discredit him entirely, he did have a 2,000 yard season after all, but everybody was able to run behind that line. 

YES! This has been my exact argument for years! Dude is overrated and not at all HOF worthy. 

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

I know most people point to Terrell Davis's relatively short career as a ding against him, but I think the other Broncos RBs all putting up 1,000+ yards rushing seasons for years after him is the bigger ding.

 

1999: Orlando's Gary - 1,159 yards

2000: Mike Anderson - 1,487 yards

2001: Split Carries between Anderson (678 yards) & Davis (701 yards)

2002: Clinton Portis - 1,508 yards

2003: Clinton Portis - 1,591 yards

2004: Reuben Droughns - 1,240 yards

2005: Mike Anderson - 1,014 and Tatum Bell - 921 yards

2006: Tatum Bell - 1,026 and Mike Bell - 677

 

Not to discredit him entirely, he did have a 2,000 yard season after all, but everybody was able to run behind that line. 

 

That line and also Shanahan's rushing scheme...similar to the 49ers rushing scheme.

[mannc]

8 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

I know most people point to Terrell Davis's relatively short career as a ding against him, but I think the other Broncos RBs all putting up 1,000+ yards rushing seasons for years after him is the bigger ding.

 

1999: Orlando's Gary - 1,159 yards

2000: Mike Anderson - 1,487 yards

2001: Split Carries between Anderson (678 yards) & Davis (701 yards)

2002: Clinton Portis - 1,508 yards

2003: Clinton Portis - 1,591 yards

2004: Reuben Droughns - 1,240 yards

2005: Mike Anderson - 1,014 and Tatum Bell - 921 yards

2006: Tatum Bell - 1,026 and Mike Bell - 677

 

Not to discredit him entirely, he did have a 2,000 yard season after all, but everybody was able to run behind that line. 

I think this is a more compelling argument against Davis than "he only had four great seasons".  Four great seasons is a lot for a RB...

[MJS]

19 hours ago, McMuffin said:

Joe Namath

 

18 hours ago, 947 said:

Agreed!

 

Namath played 13 seasons, and he less than 50% completion rate in 7 of them. He had more TDs than INTs in only 1 of his 13 seasons.

 

His best season was 4,004 yards, 26 TDs, 28 INTs, 52.5% Completion.

 

Career completion rate of 50.1% does not belong in the HOF, regardless of era. Career 173 TDs with... 220 INTs.

While I agree that he is overrated, that was a different era. It was common to throw more INT's than TD's. I always point to wins and losses. Namath lost more games than he won. Yes, it is a team game, but the QB is the single biggest contributor to wins and losses, in my opinion.

 

I do think he belongs in the hall of fame, though. Winning that superbowl was one of the great, impactful moments in pro football history and solidified the AFL as a league to rival the NFL and eventually the merger. That moment warrants his induction, in my opinion. It was huge.

16 hours ago, DrBob806 said:

Kevin Greene

Troy Polomalu

 

There's simply way too many Steelers in the HOF. If Polomalu didn't have that long mane of hair, nobody would know who he was.

Polamalu is one of the best safeties in the history of the league, regardless of his hair. He certainly belongs.

 

There are plenty of other Steelers players to point to, though.

[Matt_In_NH]

I think Terrell Davis benefited from an amazing OL/system and had a HOF QB.  His output was great for a couple years but I dont think that happens with pretty much any other team.