Isaiah Simmons might be an answer for the Bills at MLB

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Yeah, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point as well. A savvy route runner is one who runs with a polished finesse. Knox’s WR equivalent to me is much more of a Gabe Davis than it is a Stefon Diggs or Cole Beasley. He isn’t going to give you that shimmy shake, dead leg, head/shoulder fake that sets up defenders and gets separation. He’ll do it once in awhile, like Davis’s head fake against that KC corner in the playoffs that made him fall, but it isn’t a staple of his game.
 

I don’t know if you read the article about Knox as a youth basketball player, but according to his mother he was just bigger and more physical than the other boys. Her main concern was that he was going to hurt someone because he was always going 100mph as some sort of enforcer. Contrast that with Kincaid whose first sport was also basketball, but he was a scorer. He knows how to set up defenders. Beane, I believe, compared Kincaid to a bigger Cole Beasley. He has that route running savvy in his game that Knox lacks. 

I say all this fully aware that Knox could’ve indeed been a bigger part of the offense if Josh just simply looked his way. But as for the Dorsey blame for not running plays through him, they’re around these players much more than anyone on this message board, so you’d have to believe they know what these guys are capable of and what they can’t do. Beane said we didn’t have anyone in the building like Kincaid, so he traded up to pick him. I’d be surprised - if Kincaid is up to it - if you don’t see plays run through the rookie at times. 

 

Kincaid and Knox are not here to play the same position. Per Brandon Beane - Knox will play the Y as he always has. Kincaid will play the F. 

 

You are just wrong on Dawson Knox. And McDermott basically said as much about Dorsey's lack of use of Knox during the season. McDermott wasn't seeing him in practice and thinking "don't throw his way." He was seeing him and saying "Ken why are you not getting him the ball more?"

Edited May 13, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Brand J]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Kincaid and Knox are not here to play the same position. Per Brandon Beane - Knox will play the Y as he always has. Kincaid will play the F. 

Never said they’re playing the same exact position, they’re different style players. But I can guarantee there will be times where Kincaid is on the line of scrimmage. Don’t know how you took my explanation of Knox’s lack of savvy as “they’re not playing the same position.”

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Never said they’re playing the same exact position, they’re different style players. But I can guarantee there will be times where Kincaid is on the line of scrimmage. Don’t know how you took my explanation of Knox’s lack of savvy as “they’re not playing the same position.”

 

Because you are still taking the drafting of Kincaid as saying something about Knox. It doesn't.

 

And if Knox lacks savvy you will need to explain the top 5 separation rate as per Next Gen stats. He isn't a high level route runner, but he is a very savvy zone sitter.

Edited May 13, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Aussie Joe]

Lots of red crosses getting thrown around here..

 

What did we do all those years before we could use them?

[Brand J]

16 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Because you are still taking the drafting of Kincaid as saying something about Knox. It doesn't.

 

And if Knox lacks savvy you will need to explain the top 5 separation rate as per Next Gen stats. He isn't a high level route runner, but he is a very savvy zone sitter.

It says Knox isn’t the premium receiver you think he is. That’s what the drafting of Kincaid says. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, JayBaller10 said:

It says Knox isn’t the premium receiver you think he is. That’s what the drafting of Kincaid says. 

 

I never called Knox a premium receiver. He isn't. He is a very good tight end who is underused as a receiver. 

 

Kincaid says more about what they think about Gabe Davis than it does about Dawson Knox.

 

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I never called Knox a premium receiver. He isn't. He is a very good tight end who is underused as a receiver. 

 

Kincaid says more about what they think about Gabe Davis than it does about Dawson Knox.

 

Two things can be true. It’s an indictment of Gabe Davis AND Dawson Knox. The drafting of Kincaid is a plea to give Josh another legitimate outlet, which Beane thought he lacked. I’ll agree that Knox is underused as a receiver, but can’t agree that he’d have a major impact if he suddenly became a focal point of opposing defenses. The guy runs unmolested many times and it’s like the defense sort of waves its hand at him “not a threat.” Perhaps that carries over to the red zone as well, they don’t check him between the 20s and still don’t look at him as a viable receiver in that zone, so he catches defenders asleep and has the production. 

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Two things can be true. It’s an indictment of Gabe Davis AND Dawson Knox. The drafting of Kincaid is a plea to give Josh another legitimate outlet, which Beane thought he lacked. I’ll agree that Knox is underused as a receiver, but can’t agree that he’d have a major impact if he suddenly became a focal point of opposing defenses. The guy runs unmolested many times and it’s like the defense sort of waves its hand at him “not a threat.” Perhaps that carries over to the red zone as well, they don’t check him between the 20s and still don’t look at him as a viable receiver in that zone, so he catches defenders asleep and has the production. 

 

I encourage you to actually watch the tape. Because this just isn't true.

[HappyDays]

8 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

this whole thing with saying Knox can not be that big te or big slot... We have not truly tested the grounds with Knox in the slot.

 

Knox doesn't have the route running, the short area quickness, or the coverage reading ability needed to play from the slot regularly. Think Beasley's skill set. That isn't Knox. Unlike Kincaid you wouldn't describe Knox's game as "fluid." Knox is more of a "straight line, run you over" kind of athlete which is a good skill set for a traditional TE. You can live with an above average drop rate from a traditional TE (as long as it's not the ridiculous 20% drop rate Knox had as a rookie); a slot receiver on the contrary needs to have very good hands to be effective. The areas that Knox is weak in Kincaid excels in, and vice versa. I think they're a perfect complementary match.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by HappyDays

[HappyDays]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

He isn't a high level route runner, but he is a very savvy zone sitter.

 

If this is true, I question why Josh Allen isn't looking at him more? I've seen people try to blame Allen himself for this, but Allen was constantly looking Beasley's way from 2019-2021. So I know that he will specifically look for a safety valve if he trusts the player. For one reason or another he isn't looking to Knox as a safety valve. I feel that there must be a reason for this beyond "Allen just doesnt feel like it."

 

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

And if Knox lacks savvy you will need to explain the top 5 separation rate as per Next Gen stats.

 

I don't put much stock in Next Gen Stats' separation rate. QBs aren't looking for yards of separation, they're looking for leverage. There are plenty of scenarios where a WR with 1 yard of separation is still in a better spot to catch the ball than a WR with 5 yards of separation. It's practically a meaningless stat without context. It's possible that Knox is not properly leveraging himself in a way that creates a good catch and run window in between zone defenders the way that Beasley used to. I don't think Allen really trusts Knox to see things the same way that he does and Allen is very much a "trust" style of QB.

 

This is my counter to people that say "why did we draft Kincaid if we don't even throw to Knox?" I think Kincaid's instincts to leverage himself properly in coverage gaps will mesh very well with what Allen likes and I believe he will immediately take over 2020 Beasley's function in this offense but with a much better catch radius and a much higher YAC ceiling on any given play.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by HappyDays

[Sierra Foothills]

On 5/12/2023 at 3:13 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

Pretty sure the plan is to start whomever wins the battle between Bernard, Klein, Williams, and Dodson.

But that the "starter" won't be playing all downs. Because whoever the starter is won't be at the level of Edmunds, we'll probably be cycling in different MLB'ers to keep someone fresh there.

 

Also, I imagine there will be times when Milano is playing the MLB spot with someone like Williams alongside him at the OLB spot. And there will surely be packages with Rapp on the field further up the field.

 

The long and short of it is between the other players we have on the field, 3-4 guys that can be cycled in, the strength of the D-Line and the secondary, and creative scheming - I don't think MLB is remotely as big of a worry to the front office and coaching staff as it is fans.

 

I don't see why Dorian Williams can't play at the level of Tremaine Edmunds once he gets some experience under his belt.

 

We'll see.

 

 

[NewEra]

On 5/13/2023 at 8:53 AM, PrimeTime101 said:

Sir with all do respect, you need to stop with these awful narratives

He is not a big slot?

 

Knox

6'4 254

 

Kelce

6'5 250

 

Kincaid

6'4 246

 

Andrews 

6'5 256

 

Stop it lol...  All 4 of these guys are within 1 inch and 11 pounds man,,, stop with your awful narratives to prove a point... 

 

Now.. to the point of receiving skill? I agree.  Though i find it FUNNY that you drag Hock into this conversation saying Knox could be as productive as hock

 

Both players.. played.. yep.. EXACTLY 57 games..

 

Knox total yards and TD? 1780/20  Targets 230  Avg. 11

Hock total yards and TD? 2587/18  Targets 373  Avg 10.5

 

They essentially already are the same player.. ACCEPT!  Hock has more targets and slightly less drops over his career.

 

Overall ? I agree with most of what you have said.. but don't let one bad narrative roll into another. 

You’re using size to prove your point?  🤣 🤦🏻‍♂️ 🤷🏻‍♂️ it’s the skillset that determines whether or not someone is an effect slot. 

 

On 5/13/2023 at 9:27 AM, PrimeTime101 said:

you can't say knox cant be that big slot guy then use the example of a bad OL.. Look we all know why the OL was bad, that is why you can keep a HB back there to be the extra blocker while knox would be in the slot..

 

this whole thing with saying Knox can not be that big te or big slot... We have not truly tested the grounds with Knox in the slot. look.. I have no doubt Kincaid is a step ahead and will do better then what a knox would be in the slot.. I am saying you can not say Knox could not be in the slot when that is untested. 

1000% agree. My biggest point.. we do not KNOW nor now may never know if Knox could have been a big slot. I used the size comparisons to show HE could BE!

 

that is all man. 

Your takes in this thread are really strange. Again…..  size doesn’t = skillset.  Skillset is what determines if a player can be effective in the slot….. not size.  
 

Tremaine Edmunds -  6’5 250-  we should’ve been using him In the slot all along.   
 

while knox is a very good athlete, his nuanced route running and start and stop ability is lacking.  His movement skills are nowhere near Kincaids.  They are much different movers 

[TheWeatherMan]

On 5/13/2023 at 6:12 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

"Big Slot" is a position. It isn't a size comparison.

Slot Receiver is a position. 

On 5/13/2023 at 10:13 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Kincaid and Knox are not here to play the same position. Per Brandon Beane - Knox will play the Y as he always has. Kincaid will play the F. 

 

You are just wrong on Dawson Knox. And McDermott basically said as much about Dorsey's lack of use of Knox during the season. McDermott wasn't seeing him in practice and thinking "don't throw his way." He was seeing him and saying "Ken why are you not getting him the ball more?"

Why would you have a TE who is not good at blocking play the Y?

[PrimeTime101]

On 5/13/2023 at 4:13 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Kincaid and Knox are not here to play the same position. Per Brandon Beane - Knox will play the Y as he always has. Kincaid will play the F. 

 

You are just wrong on Dawson Knox. And McDermott basically said as much about Dorsey's lack of use of Knox during the season. McDermott wasn't seeing him in practice and thinking "don't throw his way." He was seeing him and saying "Ken why are you not getting him the ball more?"

I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I specifically said if you go back, that they did not use knox enough in the right places to know what we could get max out of him. and that is a shame. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, TheWeatherMan said:

Slot Receiver is a position. 

Why would you have a TE who is not good at blocking play the Y?

 

Indeed, slot receiver is a position, but "big slot" is a variation of a position. The same as "big nickel". 

 

You wouldn't get a TE who is not good at blocking to play the Y. Exactly the point I was making. Kincaid isn't here to take snaps off Knox as the Y. He is here to be more productive than our #3 receiver and in the longer term our #2 as well. 

3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think you are completely misunderstanding what I am trying to say. I specifically said if you go back, that they did not use knox enough in the right places to know what we could get max out of him. and that is a shame. 

 

The bolded wasn't in response to your point.