Isaiah Simmons might be an answer for the Bills at MLB

[K-9]

17 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Pretty sure the plan is to start whomever wins the battle between Bernard, Klein, Williams, and Dodson.

 

But that the "starter" won't be playing all downs. Because whoever the starter is won't be at the level of Edmunds, we'll probably be cycling in different MLB'ers to keep someone fresh there.

 

Also, I imagine there will be times when Milano is playing the MLB spot with someone like Williams alongside him at the OLB spot. And there will surely be packages with Rapp on the field further up the field.

 

The long and short of it is between the other players we have on the field, 3-4 guys that can be cycled in, the strength of the D-Line and the secondary, and creative scheming - I don't think MLB is remotely as big of a worry to the front office and coaching staff as it is fans.

I have to disagree. If Williams pans out, he is capable of being a three down LB. He’s already better in coverage than the other three listed. 

[GunnerBill]

26 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I haven’t studied Hock enough to have an informed opinion there, but I know Knox isn’t consistently open because he’s shaking defenders like a Travis Kelce or catching contested passes like a Mark Andrews. I know that. 

Knox is a very good athlete, but he doesn’t have the movement skills of a premiere pass catching TE, or “big slot.” Nor does he have the hands and savvy. And again, he’s not a bad player, but Beane should’ve waited on that extension. 

 

He isn't Kelce or Andrews, agreed. And he is not a big slot. Nor does he pretend to be. I disagree that he lacks savvy and while I wouldn't call his hands elite, they are much improved and in the clutch last year his hands were good.

Edited May 13, 2023 by GunnerBill

[PrimeTime101]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

But he does consistently get open. He isn't a big slot.... he isn't Andrews or Kelce... he doesn't have that sort of receiving skill, which Kincaid has the potential to be, but Knox could be as productive as TJ Hockenson. I don't think there is anything Hock has that Knox doesn't. Their skillsets are very similar. 

Sir with all do respect, you need to stop with these awful narratives

He is not a big slot?

 

Knox

6'4 254

 

Kelce

6'5 250

 

Kincaid

6'4 246

 

Andrews 

6'5 256

 

Stop it lol...  All 4 of these guys are within 1 inch and 11 pounds man,,, stop with your awful narratives to prove a point... 

 

Now.. to the point of receiving skill? I agree.  Though i find it FUNNY that you drag Hock into this conversation saying Knox could be as productive as hock

 

Both players.. played.. yep.. EXACTLY 57 games..

 

Knox total yards and TD? 1780/20  Targets 230  Avg. 11

Hock total yards and TD? 2587/18  Targets 373  Avg 10.5

 

They essentially already are the same player.. ACCEPT!  Hock has more targets and slightly less drops over his career.

 

Overall ? I agree with most of what you have said.. but don't let one bad narrative roll into another. 

[GunnerBill]

23 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I have to disagree. If Williams pans out, he is capable of being a three down LB. He’s already better in coverage than the other three listed. 

 

He is capable of being a 3 down player. Is he capable of being a 3 down MLB? That is a slightly different question.

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Sir with all do respect, you need to stop with these awful narratives

He is not a big slot?

 

Knox

6'4 254

 

Kelce

6'5 250

 

Kincaid

6'4 246

 

Andrews 

6'5 256

 

Stop it lol...  All 4 of these guys are within 1 inch and 11 pounds man,,, stop with your awful narratives to prove a point... 

 

Now.. to the point of receiving skill? I agree.  Though i find it FUNNY that you drag Hock into this conversation saying Knox could be as productive as hock

 

Both players.. played.. yep.. EXACTLY 57 games..

 

Knox total yards and TD? 1780/20  Targets 230  Avg. 11

Hock total yards and TD? 2587/18  Targets 373  Avg 10.5

 

They essentially already are the same player.. ACCEPT!  Hock has more targets and slightly less drops over his career.

 

Overall ? I agree with most of what you have said.. but don't let one bad narrative roll into another. 

Knox doesn’t line up in the slot as much as a Kelce does nor is he really used that way which I think was GB’s point, not that he’s not the same size.

Edited May 13, 2023 by FireChans

[PrimeTime101]

5 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Knox doesn’t line up in the slot as much as a Kelce does nor is he really used that way which I think was GB’s point, not that he’s not the same size.

never said he did.. go back and read.. i was referring to the big te comment  NOT THE SAME SIZE? did you read any of what i posted? all 4 are within 1 inch and 11 pounds of each other. THAT is a bad narrative. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by PrimeTime101

[GunnerBill]

14 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Sir with all do respect, you need to stop with these awful narratives

He is not a big slot?

 

Knox

6'4 254

 

Kelce

6'5 250

 

Kincaid

6'4 246

 

Andrews 

6'5 256

 

Stop it lol...  All 4 of these guys are within 1 inch and 11 pounds man,,, stop with your awful narratives to prove a point... 

 

Now.. to the point of receiving skill? I agree.  Though i find it FUNNY that you drag Hock into this conversation saying Knox could be as productive as hock

 

Both players.. played.. yep.. EXACTLY 57 games..

 

Knox total yards and TD? 1780/20  Targets 230  Avg. 11

Hock total yards and TD? 2587/18  Targets 373  Avg 10.5

 

They essentially already are the same player.. ACCEPT!  Hock has more targets and slightly less drops over his career.

 

Overall ? I agree with most of what you have said.. but don't let one bad narrative roll into another. 

 

Knox is not a big slot. He is a traditional tight end. That isn't a size thing. It is a skillset thing. Hock and Knox are different players to Kelce and Andrews, not just talent level but style and skillset.

 

Hock and Knox are very similar. The difference is Hock gets throw to and Knox doesn't, except in the redzone.... and in the redzone over the past two years Knox outperforms Hock.

[FireChans]

8 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

never said he did.. go back and read.. i was referring to the big te comment  NOT THE SAME SIZE? did you read any of what i posted? all 4 are within 1 inch and 11 pounds of each other. THAT is a bad narrative. 

Huh?

 

what is a bad narrative? Who said they weren’t the same size?

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

never said he did.. go back and read.. i was referring to the big te comment  NOT THE SAME SIZE? did you read any of what i posted? all 4 are within 1 inch and 11 pounds of each other. THAT is a bad narrative. 

 

"Big Slot" is a position. It isn't a size comparison.

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Knox is not a big slot. He is a traditional tight end. That isn't a size thing. It is a skillset thing. Hock and Knox are different players to Kelce and Andrews, not just talent level but style and skillset.

 

Hock and Knox are very similar. The difference is Hock gets throw to and Knox doesn't, except in the redzone.... and in the redzone over the past two years Knox outperforms Hock.

you said big te not big slot. fact is Knox could have been used in the slot more, and they are the same size. the point being is using the term big. the rest i agree

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

"Big Slot" is a position. It isn't a size comparison.

i recant that. you did say big slot. point being is there is no reason Knox could not of played in the slot  more because he was big. he compares to hoc

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you said big te not big slot. fact is Knox could have been used in the slot more, and they are the same size. the point being is using the term big. the rest i agree

i recant that. you did say big slot. point being is there is no reason Knox could not of played in the slot  more because he was big. he compares to hoc

Knox doesn’t get to pick where he gets lined up.

[PrimeTime101]

18 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Knox doesn’t line up in the slot as much as a Kelce does nor is he really used that way which I think was GB’s point, not that he’s not the same size.

the question you need to ask is.. if he is all of what hock is.. and they look the same, why was knox not used in slot more often?

3 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Knox doesn’t get to pick where he gets lined up.

wow man. never said he did. now your stuffing words in my mouth?

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

the question you need to ask is.. if he is all of what hock is.. and they look the same, why was knox not used in slot more often?

Because our OL sucked all year.  Knox was asked to stay in and help block a ton. And Dorsey didn't really get him more involved until the second half of the year.

 

Knox had 5 or more targets only 3 times in his first 8 games.

 

He had 5 or more targets in 6 games the rest of the year.

8 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

the question you need to ask is.. if he is all of what hock is.. and they look the same, why was knox not used in slot more often?

wow man. never said he did. now your stuffing words in my mouth?

I never said you said that.  You're stuffing words in my mouth lmao.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Because our OL sucked all year.  Knox was asked to stay in and help block a ton. And Dorsey didn't really get him more involved until the second half of the year.

 

Knox had 5 or more targets only 3 times in his first 8 games.

 

He had 5 or more targets in 6 games the rest of the year.

 

And McDermott and Beane were CLEARLY frustrated that he was underused. The number of weeks where he got 2 targets in the first 15 plays (indicative of a HC insisting) and then they forgot about him. They did work it out some down the stretch in fairness.

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And McDermott and Beane were CLEARLY frustrated that he was underused. The number of weeks where he got 2 targets in the first 15 plays (indicative of a HC insisting) and then they forgot about him. They did work it out some down the stretch in fairness.

Yep.  The most obviously disconnect last year between FO and coaching was paying Knox that money and then letting him play 4th or 5th banana as a receiver.

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

Because our OL sucked all year.  Knox was asked to stay in and help block a ton. And Dorsey didn't really get him more involved until the second half of the year.

 

Knox had 5 or more targets only 3 times in his first 8 games.

 

He had 5 or more targets in 6 games the rest of the year.

you can't say knox cant be that big slot guy then use the example of a bad OL.. Look we all know why the OL was bad, that is why you can keep a HB back there to be the extra blocker while knox would be in the slot..

 

this whole thing with saying Knox can not be that big te or big slot... We have not truly tested the grounds with Knox in the slot. look.. I have no doubt Kincaid is a step ahead and will do better then what a knox would be in the slot.. I am saying you can not say Knox could not be in the slot when that is untested. 

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

And McDermott and Beane were CLEARLY frustrated that he was underused. The number of weeks where he got 2 targets in the first 15 plays (indicative of a HC insisting) and then they forgot about him. They did work it out some down the stretch in fairness.

1000% agree. My biggest point.. we do not KNOW nor now may never know if Knox could have been a big slot. I used the size comparisons to show HE could BE!

 

that is all man. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you can't say knox cant be that big slot guy then use the example of a bad OL.. Look we all know why the OL was bad, that is why you can keep a HB back there to be the extra blocker while knox would be in the slot..

 

this whole thing with saying Knox can not be that big te or big slot... We have not truly tested the grounds with Knox in the slot. look.. I have no doubt Kincaid is a step ahead and will do better then what a knox would be in the slot.. I am saying you can not say Knox could not be in the slot when that is untested. 

Maybe Knox can be the big slot guy. You asked why he was not used that way last year, and I told you.  You CAN keep an RB home in pass-pro and put Knox in the slot.  That's not what happened though.

 

I think Kincaid is a little shiftier and a little better route runner than Knox (although he hasn't done anything in the NFL yet).  I think Knox is a better pass-catcher than most people give him credit for because they remember his putrid drop rate from a couple seasons ago.  I think Knox is a superior blocker to Kincaid.

 

It will be interesting to see how they are used.  I would love to see a lot of presnap motion between the two and some more creativity.  That's all on Dorsey though.

 

As for Knox,  he was 8th in yards per target last season, ahead of guys like Hock, Andrews, Fant, Gesicki etc.  IMO, that paints a clear picture that any qualms about his production come from the opportunities he is given (or rather not given) instead of a lack of ability.

[K-9]

34 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is capable of being a 3 down player. Is he capable of being a 3 down MLB? That is a slightly different question.

The LBs listed in the post I responded to were all LBs expected to compete for that middle role so I was specifically thinking of MLB in my post. If he can quickly grasp McD’s concepts, I think we will see him as the starting MLB sooner than later. McD certainly isn’t shy about starting a young rookie there. He has all the physical attributes required for the position as I don’t think his lighter weight is a limiting factor in the least. And his freakishly long arms for a man of his height are an advantage as well in both shedding blocks and in pass defense. 
 

I hadn’t seen much of if any of him before we selected him and at first blush I was like others thinking it was Bernard 2.0. But after a deeper dive into his video it became clear to me why we took him. He’s more instinctive, trusts those instincts and plays fast as a result. I think he’s farther along than Edmunds was at the same stages of their careers. While Kincaid and Torrence pique my interest, I’m looking forward to watching his progression the most. 

[PrimeTime101]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Maybe Knox can be the big slot guy. You asked why he was not used that way last year, and I told you.  You CAN keep an RB home in pass-pro and put Knox in the slot.  That's not what happened though.

 

I think Kincaid is a little shiftier and a little better route runner than Knox (although he hasn't done anything in the NFL yet).  I think Knox is a better pass-catcher than most people give him credit for because they remember his putrid drop rate from a couple seasons ago.  I think Knox is a superior blocker to Kincaid.

 

It will be interesting to see how they are used.  I would love to see a lot of presnap motion between the two and some more creativity.  That's all on Dorsey though.

 

As for Knox,  he was 8th in yards per target last season, ahead of guys like Hock, Andrews, Fant, Gesicki etc.  IMO, that paints a clear picture that any qualms about his production come from the opportunities he is given (or rather not given) instead of a lack of ability.

I think we are all in agreement and we get each other. sometimes we need to scrap to get to that end goal? lol  but I think we get it. It just drives me nuts to say knox is or could not be a big slot because he was not used in that compacity.  rout running out of the TE position when you can get stuffed at the line every time and running in the slot is 2 different beasts. 

 

I do think Kincaid is at another level. and that is going to make for a very fun 3 months watching him going into the season. 

[Brand J]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He isn't Kelce or Andrews, agreed. And he is not a big slot. Nor does he pretend to be. I disagree that he lacks savvy and while I wouldn't call his hands elite, they are much improved and in the clutch last year his hands were good.

Yeah, we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this point as well. A savvy route runner is one who runs with a polished finesse. Knox’s WR equivalent to me is much more of a Gabe Davis than it is a Stefon Diggs or Cole Beasley. He isn’t going to give you that shimmy shake, dead leg, head/shoulder fake that sets up defenders and gets separation. He’ll do it once in awhile, like Davis’s head fake against that KC corner in the playoffs that made him fall, but it isn’t a staple of his game.
 

I don’t know if you read the article about Knox as a youth basketball player, but according to his mother he was just bigger and more physical than the other boys. Her main concern was that he was going to hurt someone because he was always going 100mph as some sort of enforcer. Contrast that with Kincaid whose first sport was also basketball, but he was a scorer. He knows how to set up defenders. Beane, I believe, compared Kincaid to a bigger Cole Beasley. He has that route running savvy in his game that Knox lacks. 

I say all this fully aware that Knox could’ve indeed been a bigger part of the offense if Josh just simply looked his way. But as for the Dorsey blame for not running plays through him, they’re around these players much more than anyone on this message board, so you’d have to believe they know what these guys are capable of and what they can’t do. Beane said we didn’t have anyone in the building like Kincaid, so he traded up to pick him. I’d be surprised - if Kincaid is up to it - if you don’t see plays run through the rookie at times.