Should the Bills move Milano to MLB?

[Beck Water]

38 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

I agree. Leave Milano where he is.  That said Milano played MLB about 2-5 plays a game.  It was not frequent but it was regular enough that they would switch him to MLB and let Edmunds fail to rush the passer from an OLB spot. 

 

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between where a player lines up/his role on a specific play vs. playing a different position.  A DE is still playing DE if he rotates inside for a play.

 

Sometimes that may seem like a distinction without a difference, but in the case of a player like MLB, the MLB still has the helmet speaker, calls the plays, and makes pre-snap adjustments regardless if he lines up outside the tackles to blitz on a specific play

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, Bobby Hooks said:

Well… to be fair, I dont really post as often as I’d like and I didn’t know it was an often posted thing. So that is my bad, I guess. 
 

But it does seem to be bringing in a decent amount of convo, so there’s seems to be some meat left on the bone. 

 

Got you. My apologies really. I don't mean to come off as a jerk. That was not my intent. 

[Bobby Hooks]

11 minutes ago, StHustle said:

 

Lol you sound stupid. You new to football? Smh this is where I make my exit. I don't debate with fools.

Oh no! Please don’t go, I’d hate for the thread to lose a wordsmith such as yourself. 

Do you always call fellow Bills fans names or is this a new thing you’re trying out? I feel like if this conversation was in person you wouldn’t feel so empowered to call anyone names. 

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

We do not have a scheme identity. That's on more than just Beane

 

Completely agree, it's a team effort as it were.  

 

McD's background is as a DB in college, and his first discipline specific coaching job was as a secondary/DBs coach before he went on to be Carolina's DC with very mixed and inconsistent results.  28th, 10th, 2nd, 10th, 6th, 21st in yardage D, and 27th, 18th, 2nd, 21st, 6th, 26th in scoring D, with 2013 (2nd and 2nd) on the merits of an extremely weak schedule featuring only two teams ranked in the top-12 in Offense that season, while getting ousted in their only playoff game doing only a fair job against SF, the 24th ranked Offense that season.  

 

From there he came here where he's always first been biased towards the secondary and then subsequent to that more recently the  defense in general.  As with you, I see no evidence of any scheme, rather more a shuffling of the roster depending upon the best players that are on the field, largely because the ones that aren't the best aren't cutting it.  That's what happens and what you set yourself up for when you focus on BPA in the drafts.  

 

I see no evidence of any planning either.  Last year we wasted a 2nd-round pick on a role-playing RB that they talked up, before trading for more of a 3-down RB in Harris more recently.  The number of times we've drafted over ourselves on DL weighs in as well.  There are far too many 1 and 2-year signings by Beane to create anything akin to continuity for the most part on the OL and at LB.  The guys we've drafted for LB have typically made a big splash in college but not in situations or against opposing players or teams that would be like NFL competition.  Oliver comes to mind as well although not at LB.  

 

It's all come home to roost now, in Beane's 6th Draft.  If we regress this season it really says something about his methodology, or possibly this mysterious and entirely undefined "Process."   It'll be very interesting how this season plays out and whether we're finally more competitive in the playoffs or not.  There are already more than whispers everywhere but Buffalo as to questions surrounding both Beane and McD, and even in Buffalo many are questioning whether or not they're the ones to get us to the ultimate prize.  

 

Time will tell.  

 

 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 hours ago, Bobby Hooks said:

Alright, so hear me out. When we drafted Dorian Williams, i was like “cool, we got our guy!” But was surprised to hear that they think of him more like an olb. 
 

Does anyone else think they may try to shift Milano to the middle and have Dorian take his spot? 
 

I know Milano doesn’t have the prototypical size, but McDermott loves him and is always in his ear on the sidelines. 
 

The communication aspect would be taken care of (as I kind of see him taking the qb of the defense role already this season), and he’s definitely got the goods in the coverage aspects of the job. 
 

He’s got great instincts. Idk, maybe there’s a piece I haven’t considered but I just don’t know what they plan to do at the position. Maybe someone already on the roster for obvious running downs, and a change-up for passing downs? 

 

 

 

A lot of analysts are higher on the Dorian Williams pick, saying he can step into the MLB role right now. 

 

But Beane is smart to point out, he played a simplified Tulane defense, nothing as complicated as the NFL. 

 

Greg Cosell like Williams' tape, and he likes the prospect more than Bernard. 

[Beck Water]

53 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Yeah it is definitely a me issue.  Fully admit it.  I had the luxury of watching Bobbie Wagner play elite football for the last decade up close. He is 6-0 and 242 pounds and he has been the best LB in football and a first ballot HOF guy on one of the best defenses in the last decade of NFL football.   So yes I like the MLB to be a little more stout. 

 

Good post, and fair point.  No one could deny that Bobby Wagner has been one of the best in the game for the last decade, or that the Seahawks had one of the best defenses in the league.

 

So if our comparison is top LB in the league and 1st ballot HOF MLB, gotta agree I don't see anyone like that on the roster.

 

That said, I can't give you "best defenses in the last decade".  I would say starting about 2017, the defense started to slide.  Wagner was still a Beast of course.  Did you maybe mean that some years, they had some of the best defenses in the last decade?

 

53 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

But as I also posted I think instincts outweigh size - full pun intended.  Edmunds has none. Milano has elite instincts.  Hopefully one of these other LBs on the roster will step up.

For the record I also was early to point out that Edmunds was overrated while others said I was crazy. And look what happened, they let him walk.  

Also for the record, I really don't think it matters.  Bills have an elite secondary when healthy and with Miller, Rousseau, and Oliver have the ability to rush the passer.  A barely competent MLB to go with Milano and McD calling the defense should be good enough.  It's mostly all about Allen and the offense. 

 

That last is where I'm pinning my hopes.  I point to myself that the Bills had a competent defense in 2017 - not an elite defense, but competent enough to put them in the playoffs - with Preston Brown as their MLB and Ramon Humber and Zo Alexander outside.

[frostbitmic]

I'd move Epenesa or Kingsley Jonathan to MLB. 😁

[GreggTX]

Clearly we need to add a MLB, but it may not happen until roster cuts come. Until then, one of our backups will have to man that spot. I have a feeling their plan, whatever it was, got fubar'd and they're forced to scramble for a lesser option. I'd be happy just to see an average talent at MLB. My money is on an aging veteran that gets a 1 year deal and a day 1 or 2 draft pick in 2024.

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

A lot of analysts are higher on the Dorian Williams pick, saying he can step into the MLB role right now. 

 

But Beane is smart to point out, he played a simplified Tulane defense, nothing as complicated as the NFL. 

 

Greg Cosell like Williams' tape, and he likes the prospect more than Bernard. 

 

I'll riff on this take, and say that I believe the fact that the Bills doubled down on the position in back-to-back drafts, and that AFTER they brought the veterans into the building for physical benchmarks and initial OTAs, speaks that they're disappointed in what they've seen from Bernard so far and perhaps disappointed with his off-season.

 

I think the Bills like the prospect of Williams more than Bernard

 

Kind of when they drafted Epenesa and the following year doubled down by drafting Rousseau and Basham then tripled down signing Von Miller as their FA splash

 

5 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

I'd move Epenesa or Kingsley Jonathan to MLB. 😁

 

Sir, you are a Bad Man.

 

Epenesa would have to put on some weight to suit some folks here

Edited May 5, 2023 by Beck Water

[jkeerie]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I had a similar though but Beane ruled it out the other day and walked back the idea that Williams could only play outside.

I got the impression from that presser that the question of Williams position has to do with how much of our defense he can absorb as a rookie.  He played in a 2 LB system at Tulane, but the defense was very basic.  If Williams can grasp the complexity of the Bills defense quickly, he could very well factor in as Edmund's replacement.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'll riff on this take, and say that I believe the fact that the Bills doubled down on the position in back-to-back drafts, and that AFTER they brought the veterans into the building for physical benchmarks and initial OTAs, speaks that they're disappointed in what they've seen from Bernard so far and perhaps disappointed with his off-season.

 

I think the Bills like the prospect of Williams more than Bernard

Yes, he said Bernard looks small on the field, and plays small. 

 

Williams' doesn't have ideal size, but plays faster than Bernard, and is a bigger hitter. 

 

I do agree that the because Bernard never saw the field again on defense after the Jets game, tells you the Bills weren't impressed. 

 

Sal C keeps saying the same story about how Dodson pulled him aside and said that Bernard can really play, but if Dorian Williams' was a reach by the NFL.com Scouting Report, then Bernard was a much bigger reach. He was seen as 5th-6th round prospect by most. 

[harmonkillebrew]

5 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

you may be on to something and others have posted/reported this as a way to counter the new game geared towards the passing offense. BIG on the line, fast behind it.

 

3 BIG D Linemen eating up space in the middle and taking on blockers

2 'traditional' LBs-right now that would be Milano and Miller who can stop the run, rush the passer and cover a bit

2 Nickel/LB Hybrid tweeners that can cover a TE/slot while supporting the run, Johnson and the rookie or Bernard or Benford?

2 outside corners- we are set

2 safeties- we have 2 of the best

 

It's about matchups.

When a team is in 11 personnel (1TE) and 3 WRs - we are in nickel with Milano lined up over the TE.  That means the other LB is a MLB (Klein??)

If a team is 12 personnel (2TE) - if we stay in nickel we'll get crushed in the run game.  Ideally with Williams/Bernard we can play 3LBs and still cover 2TEs and defend better against the run.  Still need a MLB, but maybe a traditional, larger MLB is not as good as two speedier coverage LBs (to go along with Milano).

If a team goes 4 WRs, 1TE - we go dime with Milano the lone LB

 

Maybe it shakes out that we only end playing against 11 with a MLB, or heavier goaline configurations part of the time, given the trend toward 2TE sets in the division/leagues.  So Klein will only see the field 25% of the time anyways.  ...

[Shaw66]

I listened to Beane on Jim Rome.  There's a thread about it, with the link.  

 

I think Beane said something about Williams that is a little different from what I've understood up to now.   It seemed to me that Beane said to Rome that they drafted Williams to play mlb.   The olb talk is just that they don't want to overload him with too much too soon.   So, they plan to teach him olb first and then move him as he develops and learns the whole defense, so that he can be a true mike.  Beane said something like he isn't ruling out Williams winning the mlb job earlier; it's just that they don't want to overload him.  

 

There are limits to the time coaches can spend with players.   I wouldn't be surprised if the team talked to Milano and Klein and Bernard and asked them to run a little informal linebackers camp to start Williams up the learning curve.  

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

5 hours ago, Robert Paulson said:

you may be on to something and others have posted/reported this as a way to counter the new game geared towards the passing offense. BIG on the line, fast behind it.

 

3 BIG D Linemen eating up space in the middle and taking on blockers

2 'traditional' LBs-right now that would be Milano and Miller who can stop the run, rush the passer and cover a bit

2 Nickel/LB Hybrid tweeners that can cover a TE/slot while supporting the run, Johnson and the rookie or Bernard or Benford?

2 outside corners- we are set

2 safeties- we have 2 of the best

 

Thinking back too when Miller first signed ,he was listed on some sights as a LB so could see him filling that role here too

 

Think rather than your choices listed for Nickel /Hybrid better chance it would be Rapp

[Ethan in Cleveland]

30 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between where a player lines up/his role on a specific play vs. playing a different position.  A DE is still playing DE if he rotates inside for a play.

 

Sometimes that may seem like a distinction without a difference, but in the case of a player like MLB, the MLB still has the helmet speaker, calls the plays, and makes pre-snap adjustments regardless if he lines up outside the tackles to blitz on a specific play

That is true. I'm only speaking about where they line up and what their responsibility is on that given play. A DE that drops in zone coverage is still a DE but he is still asked to defend a passing zone. An OLB(Milano) that lines up in the middle of the field is asked to key off the centers and guards in the run game, defend his zone, or defend a back in man coverage the same as if it was Edmunds or Klein in that spot pre-snap.  Thus on that play he is playing the MLB role.

As far as who call the plays, I could care less who gets the play call in the helmet. I don't think it matters one bit.  If it mattered they would not have had Edmunds do it as a rookie.  They have multiple options. Milano, Hyde, or Poyer never leave the field and any of them an call the defense.  Presnap adjustments are made as a unit and done with hand signals and communication between the players. Not just one person is responsible for that unlike the QB for offense.  

Just now, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Thinking back too when Miller first signed ,he was listed on some sights as a LB so could see him filling that role here too

 

Think rather than your choices listed for Nickel /Hybrid better chance it would be Rapp

Nope. Miller is a 3-4 OLB or a 4-3 DE. He's not an OLB in McD's defense.  

3 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I listened to Beane on Jim Rome.  There's a thread about it, with the link.  

 

I think Beane said something about Williams that is a little different from what I've understood up to now.   It seemed to me that Beane said to Rome that they drafted Williams to play mlb.   The olb talk is just that they don't want to overload him with too much too soon.   So, they plan to teach him olb first and then move him as he develops and learns the whole defense, so that he can be a true mike.  Beane said something like he isn't ruling out Williams winning the mlb job earlier; it's just that they don't want to overload him.  

 

There are limits to the time coaches can spend with players.   I wouldn't be surprised if the team talked to Milano and Klein and Bernard and asked them to run a little informal linebackers camp to start Williams up the learning curve.  

Not disagreeing with what you are saying Beane said.  It just doesn't make any sense.  Why not avoid overloading hi by just teaching him MLB?  What's  the point of starting him at OLB and then move to MLB.  I think this is all GM speak to save face on the atrocity that was the Bernard pick and buys him a little time before he is labelled a bust.  As of now Bernard is my choice for surprise training camp cut.  

[Shaw66]

9 minutes ago, harmonkillebrew said:

 

It's about matchups.

When a team is in 11 personnel (1TE) and 3 WRs - we are in nickel with Milano lined up over the TE.  That means the other LB is a MLB (Klein??)

If a team is 12 personnel (2TE) - if we stay in nickel we'll get crushed in the run game.  Ideally with Williams/Bernard we can play 3LBs and still cover 2TEs and defend better against the run.  Still need a MLB, but maybe a traditional, larger MLB is not as good as two speedier coverage LBs (to go along with Milano).

If a team goes 4 WRs, 1TE - we go dime with Milano the lone LB

 

Maybe it shakes out that we only end playing against 11 with a MLB, or heavier goaline configurations part of the time, given the trend toward 2TE sets in the division/leagues.  So Klein will only see the field 25% of the time anyways.  ...

Thanks for this.  It's sort of what I was describing, but I don't know the Xs and Os.    There's essentially a rotation of Klein, Bernard and Williams, depending on down, distance, and opposing personnel.   And Rapp will factor into the equation, too, when they go dime and even in some cases when they want a DB with better run-stopping ability.  

 

And I'm still not sure what the long-term futures are for Taron Johnson and Benford.  There's a lot potential interchangabllity that can come into play.  

[Bobby Hooks]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I listened to Beane on Jim Rome.  There's a thread about it, with the link.  

 

I think Beane said something about Williams that is a little different from what I've understood up to now.   It seemed to me that Beane said to Rome that they drafted Williams to play mlb.   The olb talk is just that they don't want to overload him with too much too soon.   So, they plan to teach him olb first and then move him as he develops and learns the whole defense, so that he can be a true mike.  Beane said something like he isn't ruling out Williams winning the mlb job earlier; it's just that they don't want to overload him.  

 

There are limits to the time coaches can spend with players.   I wouldn't be surprised if the team talked to Milano and Klein and Bernard and asked them to run a little informal linebackers camp to start Williams up the learning curve.  

Oh nice! That actually makes me feel a lot better about the situation. 
 

I do wonder why they couldn’t have said that earlier. I mean, you draft a mlb and you have a need at mlb. Seems like it could’ve been pretty easy to say, you drafted him to be a mlb but plan to take it slowly. 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Bobby Hooks

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I don’t think it’s as big a deal as everyone thinks. 

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, boyst said:

i was on record stating this almost immediately williams is not our MLB.  got roasted, too.

 

milano will move to the middle in a hybrid role. he will not be the same player he has been for us. i fear this will beat him up and age him quickly.

 

klein will fill in for the traditional mlb role on run downs. we really could use a donta hightower type for run downs. even a brandon spikes. if we had takeo spikes i'd pop a rod 6 to midnight faster than a blink of an eye.

 

regardless, the middle of this defense is now a liability and hoping that our front 3 / 4 has improved enough to cover this up. i am not sure they have.

Playing 80% nickel like we’ve done the past 2 seasons 

 

Both linebackers are basically inside backers in a 3-4… milano has also played strong side the last few years in 43 and started at weak side when he was young

 

McDermott’s defense basically leaves them both at inside Backer …. One would be the Mike in a 34 the other Will

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

  

 

Not disagreeing with what you are saying Beane said.  It just doesn't make any sense.  Why not avoid overloading hi by just teaching him MLB?  What's  the point of starting him at OLB and then move to MLB.  I think this is all GM speak to save face on the atrocity that was the Bernard pick and buys him a little time before he is labelled a bust.  As of now Bernard is my choice for surprise training camp cut.  

Beane doesn't do GM speak.  Listen to Rome at the end of the interview.   He's practically gushing with the fact that Beane was giving him straight answers to everything.  Beane didn't say much of anything about Bernard or any of the others mlb candidates; he was just talking about Williams.  

 

Why are they teaching Williams OLB first?   Two reasons:   (1)  He's the best backup for Milano.   He has the most comparable skill set already.   McDermott position versatility.  (2)  He has to understand the olb position, because olb and mlb play off each other a lot.  As mlb, Williams needs to know what Milano is doing.  By starting his education with olb, the Bills are teaching him something that makes him useful, as a backup, right away AND something that is fundamental to his mlb education.  

 

And a third reason:  the jump from college to the pros is big, and it's all a lot of rookies to handle.   So, teams generally start the rookies out slowly, and let the rookies progress at their own speed.   If he's ready to play mlb by early August, the coaches will know that give him the opportunity.  For now, however, they're planning to go slowly and see how it goes.  Nothing wrong with that.