Dexter Lawrence 4 yrs / 90M extension with Giants

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah, this is an outdated way to build a team in my opinion. 

 

Paying DTs to huge money. Not a business I want the Bills to be in. 
 

Of course there are exceptions, Chris Jones.
 

To some degree I don’t know how much value there is in paying DEs to massive deals, verses keeping a young pipeline going on the defensive line. 
 

Quarterbacks are too smart, get rid of the ball too quickly, for these pass rushers to get there reliably. 

 

 

No, just the opposite, I think.

 

It's the new way to build a team. In the old way, a DT just doesn't get that kind of money.

 

Welcome to the new NFL model.

 

DTs are now worth more. So they're getting it.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Man, Brandon Beane seriously missed on the Ed Oliver pick. Drafting busts in the top 10 should have consequences.

 

 

Please, Oliver isn't a bust. He's a genuinely good player, impactful.

 

Not worth his draft slot, but very good.

 

 

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, msw2112 said:

 

The difference between the best RBs and the middle-tier RBs isn't as great as the difference between the best DTs and the middle-tier DTs.  In other words, it's much harder to replace the production of a great DT than that of a great RB.

 

By way of example, you could argue that Aaron Donald is more responsible for his team's success than any RB they've had, and he might be more important to the Rams than Barkley is to the Giants.  Donald, in his prime, was able to dominate and completely disrput his opponents' offense.  Here's a quote from an article about the Rams' Super Bowl win (WAY back in February 2022):

 

"In Super Bowl LVI against the Cincinnati Bengals, Donald had two sacks and three quarterback hits, including the game-sealing pressure play on fourth-and-1 with less than a minute remaining that resulted in an incompletion and the 23–20 win. He was ranked second by his fellow players on the NFL Top 100 Players of 2022."

 

Finally, Barkely has been injured a lot.  I can't speak for Lawrence, but perhaps he's not, and is always available.

 

I don't know how good a player Lawrence is.  I know he was great at Clemson, but he was also surrounded by great talent all around him, superior, in most cases, to his opponents' talent.  I have not watched much Giants football to make a statement of his value.  Obviously, the Giants think he has great value.

 

 

 

Nicely put, but Aaron Donald is a special case.  He's the most dominant player I've ever seen.  

 

On top of being the best player on the team and a threat to score any time he touches the ball, Saquon is the best back in the league in pass protection.  He's different.  But I also get the injury argument against him.  

 

I guess I just don't value DTs like that unless they're absolutely elite and it rubs me the wrong way when elite, workhorse backs aren't appreciated.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No, just the opposite, I think.

 

It's the new way to build a team. In the old way, a DT just doesn't get that kind of money.

 

Welcome to the new NFL model.

 

DTs are now worth more. So they're getting it.

Who is worth it? 

 

Simmons is on a bad Titans team so he gets paid. 

 

The Bengals have a reasonable contract in place for DJ Reader. 

 

Of course, Aaron Donald and JJ Watt and Chris Jones who have massive pass rushing skills. 

 

But I want the Bills to stay far away from $90M - $100M contracts for DTs. 

 

 

[T master]

On 5/4/2023 at 3:43 PM, SCBills said:

Second DT domino falls. 
 

 

 

Well with that you can bet Oliver is gone next season ..

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Please, Oliver isn't a bust. He's a genuinely good player, impactful.

 

Not worth his draft slot, but very good.

 

 

You had me up until you said impactful. 
 

But I’m biased, I’ve never really liked Oliver’s game. When everyone hated on Edmunds, Oliver was it for me. Overrated big name. In college people said he’s better than this, just playing out of position. Now in the pros it’s the same thing. He is what he is. 

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Who is worth it? 

 

Simmons is on a bad Titans team so he gets paid. 

 

The Bengals have a reasonable contract in place for DJ Reader. 

 

Of course, Aaron Donald and JJ Watt and Chris Jones who have massive pass rushing skills. 

 

But I want the Bills to stay far away from $90M - $100M contracts for DTs. 

 

 

 

 

Oliver isn't a guy who'll get a contract like that, unless he sees vast improvement. If the Bills somehow get a guy who's worth that kind of money, it'll be worth it. They might not be able to afford it, but if they got a guy like that they'd likely do their best to keep him, and it would be worth it if they managed it.

 

Who's worth it? The absolute best DTs, the top five to eight or so. Simmons is certainly one, and he'll get one whether it's with the Titans or another team, a good one. He's elite. He changes games. Again, he's worth it and how good his team is has nothing to do with it.

 

Aaron Donald, without question. And about four others who are coming due about now. Quinnen Williams. Dexter Lawrence, Simmons and Chris Jones. I'm less sure with Daron Payne. He's already got a contract like that, but Washington isn't exactly an organization that has shown good judgment. Not sure there. But the five above deserve contracts like that. Maybe Buckner and Hargrave as well. They're already very close anyway, and they probably deserve to be.

 

In his heyday, Fletcher Cox was worth that, but they weren't paying DTs that way at that time.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You had me up until you said impactful. 
 

But I’m biased, I’ve never really liked Oliver’s game. When everyone hated on Edmunds, Oliver was it for me. Overrated big name. In college people said he’s better than this, just playing out of position. Now in the pros it’s the same thing. He is what he is. 

 

 

 

He is what he is? Polite disagreement there. He could improve or not. He got better each of his first three years, then didn't last year while he fought through ankle problems. IMO it's early in his career for us to think we know what he is. It's not completely clear yet.

 

He is impactful at times, showing flashes of excellence fairly often, but not doing it consistently. Impactful, but not often enough.

 

What he does consistently is play good 3-tech at an above-average level. 

 

But shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the guys above who will get paid in the $20M level. 

 

Someone above said he was a bust, and he just isn't.

 

Maybin was picked at #11, and spent only four years in the league. That's a bust. Whitner was picked at #8, a close comparison, and spent 11 years in the league playing safety at an above average level and even managing two Pro Bowls later in his career. That's not a bust. It absolutely is a case of a guy being picked too early.

 

And in retrospect, that's how the Oliver pick looks like it will be remembered (assuming you're right and he is what he showed last season, which again I think is not yet clear). Picked a bit early. Absolutely not a bust. Will probably have a long productive career in the NFL.

 

At the time, picking Ed seemed like a good value. There were serious questions as to whether he'd make it to us, and he did so largely because so many QBs were picked early.

 

Having said that, the narrative was really different before last year. He'd been improving consistently each of his first three years and was looked on as a guy who might take a jump up among the better DTs of the league. He didn't. But at the same time, he quietly fought through ankle problems last year. He might easily take that jump this year if he stays healthy. Or not. We'll have to see. 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

6 hours ago, T master said:

 

Well with that you can bet Oliver is gone next season ..

 

 

Certainly that could be.

 

But I don't think the Lawrence pick is even the slightest bit of a surprise. Things look the same with Oliver that they did a week ago.

 

IMO they want to keep him. They might be able to. But maybe not. I don't think it's clear, particularly before the season.

 

Even with Poona on board they still don't have anyone under contract through 2024 at DT. I think they'd love to keep Ed, and might be able to.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Bill from NYC]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:55 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Man, Brandon Beane seriously missed on the Ed Oliver pick. Drafting busts in the top 10 should have consequences.

The above assumes that Beane has more power than McDermott, which I seriously doubt. McDermott proved that he valued defense more than offense the second he rolled into Buffalo.

 

Of course this is jmo.

[NoSaint]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:34 PM, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Yeah, this is an outdated way to build a team in my opinion. 

 

Paying DTs to huge money. Not a business I want the Bills to be in. 
 

Of course there are exceptions, Chris Jones.
 

To some degree I don’t know how much value there is in paying DEs to massive deals, verses keeping a young pipeline going on the defensive line. 
 

Quarterbacks are too smart, get rid of the ball too quickly, for these pass rushers to get there reliably. 

disagree. Pass rushers, elite pass rushers, can disrupt a game immensely. We see weekly that the constant flow of young guys doesn’t cut it. You need a guy that wins.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

13 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

The above assumes that Beane has more power than McDermott, which I seriously doubt. McDermott proved that he valued defense more than offense the second he rolled into Buffalo.

 

Of course this is jmo.

Honestly, I do believe McDermott runs the show.

 

Also Oliver is an ok starter, I just haven’t seen anything more than that. 

[John from Riverside]

I actually like it Oliver

 

But there is not a chance in hell that he gets a contract like that from the bills

 

You have to wonder if poona even though on a one-year contract is more like a one-year addition at defensive tackle. I look for them to do an extension with our other one tech soon and then we will probably be drafting somebody very high next year for the middle of that line. 
 

The bills are probably looking at like, and Oliver is going to have his best season since he’s playing for a contract