Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[Buffalo716]

6 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Could have fooled me with all the luxury vehicles I see on the 290 every morning and the PSLs getting snapped up like hotcakes!

Did you pay for a PSL? I know plenty who are giving up their season tickets because that 

 

Spend a lot of time on the east side and most of the people I know don't even have cars who live there... About one in 2 people...

 

I definitely seen some nice cars in williamsville

 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Buffalo716

[Mr. WEO]

14 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well there's cheap labor around the country for 10 dollars an hour 

 

All of the union workers on the stadium are all getting a comfortable penny.. they're all getting 30 plus dollars an hour 

 

Add in inflation.. which was in my original post.. so inflation and increased prices of Labor

 

Construction workers can get $15 an hour in Tennessee.. some of the union workers on the stadium are getting 50 an hour 

 

I never said it added a billion dollars but even New York state says inflation and labor cost has increased the price of the stadium 

 

Labor cost with good union workers is more expensive

 

Did the union workers get a huge raise since the original cost estimates were released?

 

5 hours ago, WotAGuy said:

I hired an electrician to replace the service coming into my house and he wouldn’t give me a firm price for the wire until about a week before the install because the price changes so rapidly and inventory is uncertain. 
 

Even getting medical procedures done, like blood work, MRIs and CT scans take longer because of 2020 Covid impacts on medical staff coming into the practices. 
 

Covid has had lasting impacts on supply chain and availability of staff.  

 

Covid's only lasting impact has been staffing costs--particularly nursing, where tons of them left their regular jobs to do travel nursing (even in the same city) where their hourly costs are double or more for the hospital.

 

CTs, MRIs, procedures are humming along as ever.

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Did the union workers get a huge raise since the original cost estimates were released?

 

 

Covid's only lasting impact has been staffing costs--particularly nursing, where tons of them left their regular jobs to do travel nursing (even in the same city) where their hourly costs are double or more for the hospital.

 

CTs, MRIs, procedures are humming along as ever.

Well if they're getting paid hourly.. not salary 

 

And they're putting in more hours than thought.. that could increase labor cost 

 

I'm not a project manager but I would assume that if you have 300 people working.. and they are working more hours than originally thought that would be more money .. or if they had to call in more people to work

 

800 million added to the cost has to come from inflation and labor costs or a lot of it would I would assume

 

I don't think it's coming out of thin air

Edited 16 hours ago by Buffalo716

[WotAGuy]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Did the union workers get a huge raise since the original cost estimates were released?

 

 

Covid's only lasting impact has been staffing costs--particularly nursing, where tons of them left their regular jobs to do travel nursing (even in the same city) where their hourly costs are double or more for the hospital.

 

CTs, MRIs, procedures are humming along as ever.

The time to run and evaluate those imaging tests are slow due to not enough staff available. This is from hospital nurses who were explaining why it took so long to schedule and get these tests done for my MIL who recently passed from pancreatic cancer.  Now, it could be just a local issue, but that’s how they explained it to us. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well if they're getting paid hourly.. not salary 

 

And they're putting in more hours than thought.. that could increase labor cost 

 

I'm not a project manager but I would assume that if you have 300 people working.. and they are working more hours than originally thought that would be more money .. or if they had to call in more people to work

 

800 million added to the cost has to come from inflation and labor costs or a lot of it would I would assume

 

More hours?---you mean they are working around the clock?  2 shifts?  Or did they bring in double the number of workers starting this month?  

 

if not, you are implying construction is way behind and will require months longer to complete.  Where else would all of these extra hours come from?  Or would this overrun represent a massive miscalculation by the contractor before ground was broken re: labor needs/costs.

 

SoCal has the most likely explanation stated upstream---client changing what they want adds to cost.  

[Buffalo716]

20 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

More hours?---you mean they are working around the clock?  2 shifts?  Or did they bring in double the number of workers starting this month?  

 

if not, you are implying construction is way behind and will require months longer to complete.  Where else would all of these extra hours come from?  Or would this overrun represent a massive miscalculation by the contractor before ground was broken re: labor needs/costs.

 

SoCal has the most likely explanation stated upstream---client changing what they want adds to cost.  

John Polka, vice president of stadium development, said inflation played a significant role in the price jump by pushing up material construction costs. Two more contributing factors, he said, were increasing labor costs and design features that were added after the Bills completed their agreement with the state and county.

 

“We could have stopped at some point and said, let’s cut back. And that was not the case at all. In some cases, we’ve actually gone back in recent months and said, ‘Hey, we’ve got an idea or something that we think will enhance the fan experience or give us a better competitive advantage,’” Polka said. “And that’s really a testament to the Pegulas saying: ‘This is what we want to build. We designed it. This was our intent. There were reasons behind it, and we’re going to move forward with that.’”

 

According to the bills vice president of stadium development he says inflation labor costs and adding new design features to make the stadium better

 

new designs , inflation and then third I would probably say is labor cost

 

He does make it clear they are adding things that they were not originally which will obviously make it more expensive

Edited 16 hours ago by Buffalo716

[WotAGuy]

7 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

More hours?---you mean they are working around the clock?  2 shifts?  Or did they bring in double the number of workers starting this month?  

 

if not, you are implying construction is way behind and will require months longer to complete.  Where else would all of these extra hours come from?  Or would this overrun represent a massive miscalculation by the contractor before ground was broken re: labor needs/costs.

 

SoCal has the most likely explanation stated upstream---client changing what they want adds to cost.  

It could also be more labor hours are being spent than budgeted. It’s really difficult to forecast how long a project of this size will take, especially with the employment of M/WBE firms that tend to be less experienced. 
 

I was talking with the owner of a very large paving contractor about the rebuild of I-81 in Syracuse. He said the state DOT is experiencing cost overruns due to the number of contractors working on the project, and the fact they need to have 2 union staff for every 1 non-union staff; this is creating inefficiency in teams of people who have no experience working together. 
 

I imagine the same thing could be happening at the stadium. 
 

 

Edited 16 hours ago by WotAGuy

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

The time to run and evaluate those imaging tests are slow due to not enough staff available. This is from hospital nurses who were explaining why it took so long to schedule and get these tests done for my MIL who recently passed from pancreatic cancer.  Now, it could be just a local issue, but that’s how they explained it to us. 

 

CT and MRI wait times are purely a function of the number of machines available for the demand---same as pre covid.

 

Other than maybe in the most remote/rural areas in the country, there aren't many MRI machines sitting idle for lack of staff to run them.

 

27 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

 

“We could have stopped at some point and said, let’s cut back. And that was not the case at all. In some cases, we’ve actually gone back in recent months and said, ‘Hey, we’ve got an idea or something that we think will enhance the fan experience or give us a better competitive advantage,’” Polka said. “And that’s really a testament to the Pegulas saying: ‘This is what we want to build. We designed it. This was our intent. There were reasons behind it, and we’re going to move forward with that.’”

 

 

 

This is most likely the vast majority of the overrun.  

 

Again, how could they be so far off with labor estimates for a still on time projected completion?

 

25 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

It could also be more labor hours are being spent than budgeted. It’s really difficult to forecast how long a project of this size will take, especially with the employment of M/WBE firms that tend to be less experienced. 
 

I was talking with the owner of a very large paving contractor about the rebuild of I-81 in Syracuse. He said the state DOT is experiencing cost overruns due to the number of contractors working on the project, and the fact they need to have 2 union staff for every 1 non-union staff; this is creating inefficiency in teams of people who have no experience working together. 
 

I imagine the same thing could be happening at the stadium. 
 

 

 

 

You think it will not be done on time?  Hundreds of millions of extra labor costs because some contractors are owned by minorities or women?  Got a link for that?  And even if this was true, why wouldn't the general contractor already know this and accounted for it in their original total cost estimate?

 

Also, comparing this to a public construction project doesn't help your argument.  Since the beginning of public projects funded by the public, graft, theft, and corruption have been mainstays of doing business.   Notoriously dirty business.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Mr. WEO

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

CT and MRI wait times are purely a function of the number of machines available for the demand---same as pre covid.

 

Other than maybe in the most remote/rural areas in the country, there aren't many MRI machines sitting idle for lack of staff to run them.

 

 

This is most likely the vast majority of the overrun.  

 

Again, how could they be so far off with labor estimates for a still on time projected completion?

 

 

 

You think it will not be done on time?  Hundreds of millions of extra labor costs because some contractors are owned by minorities or women?  Got a link for that?  And even if this was true, why wouldn't the general contractor already know this and accounted for it in their original total cost estimate?

 

Also, comparing this to a public construction project doesn't help your argument.  Since the beginning of public projects funded by the public, graft, theft, and corruption have been mainstays of doing business.   Notoriously dirty business.

 

I heard it's actually ahead of time but maybe they used more manpower 

 

More manpower is not adding hundreds of millions of dollars to the build but it will increase 

 

Especially since they are adding new features so maybe they needed to bring in some more workers for those features 

 

Again I never said it was hundreds of millions of dollars of Labor I just listened to the guy who was in charge of the project and he said labor cost

[RiotAct]

1 hour ago, Buffalo716 said:

Did you pay for a PSL? I know plenty who are giving up their season tickets because that 

 

Spend a lot of time on the east side and most of the people I know don't even have cars who live there... About one in 2 people...

 

I definitely seen some nice cars in williamsville

 

 

I scraped the couch and easy-chair cushions but came up a bit short

 

[Mr. WEO]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I heard it's actually ahead of time but maybe they used more manpower 

 

More manpower is not adding hundreds of millions of dollars to the build but it will increase 

 

Especially since they are adding new features so maybe they needed to bring in some more workers for those features 

 

Again I never said it was hundreds of millions of dollars of Labor I just listened to the guy who was in charge of the project and he said labor cost

 

You also blamed cost overruns on union labor (compared to non-union labor).  But this would have been accounted for in the original estimate.  It wouldn't be an unforeseen cost.

 

Also, inflation rate was over 3% when they broke ground.  It's 2.6% now.  It was over 6% when the stadium deal was announced.

[WotAGuy]

33 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

CT and MRI wait times are purely a function of the number of machines available for the demand---same as pre covid.

 

Other than maybe in the most remote/rural areas in the country, there aren't many MRI machines sitting idle for lack of staff to run them.

 

 

This is most likely the vast majority of the overrun.  

 

Again, how could they be so far off with labor estimates for a still on time projected completion?

 

 

 

You think it will not be done on time?  Hundreds of millions of extra labor costs because some contractors are owned by minorities or women?  Got a link for that?  And even if this was true, why wouldn't the general contractor already know this and accounted for it in their original total cost estimate?

 

Also, comparing this to a public construction project doesn't help your argument.  Since the beginning of public projects funded by the public, graft, theft, and corruption have been mainstays of doing business.   Notoriously dirty business.

 

You have terrible reading skills and consistently have an incorrect understanding of the discussion points. To your credit, you do a great job of being a troll.   

[Buffalo716]

17 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

You also blamed cost overruns on union labor (compared to non-union labor).  But this would have been accounted for in the original estimate.  It wouldn't be an unforeseen cost.

 

Also, inflation rate was over 3% when they broke ground.  It's 2.6% now.  It was over 6% when the stadium deal was announced.

I said I know labor unions are being used and that might make cost more expensive 

 

My friend's a plumber and his company was not working on highmark stadium... Yet 3 weeks ago they got a contract too 

 

And he's Union and getting paid well 

 

So they are adding new union labor

 

The vice president of the build said inflation has happened

Edited 15 hours ago by Buffalo716

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, WotAGuy said:

You have terrible reading skills and consistently have an incorrect understanding of the discussion points. To your credit, you do a great job of being a troll.   

 

I men, that's one way to answer simple questions I guess.  But it's a poor dodge.

 

Explain how these contractors have led to cost overruns.  Everything you described would have been known and factored in a year ago.  You think Gilbane/Turner had no idea what a billion plus stadium project in NY (with all of its rude regarding unions/"MWBE"/etc?  Or that they had no concept of how to estimate "how long a project like this will take" (it's still on time, as far as we know)?  Flesh that out for us.

 

 

I won't ask you to back up your bad take on health care resource management.  You based it on a nurse telling you something about something...lol.

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I said I know labor unions are being used and that might make cost more expensive 

 

My friend's a plumber and his company was not working on highmark stadium... Yet 3 weeks ago they got a contract too 

 

And he's Union and getting paid well 

 

So they are adding new union labor

 

The vice president of the build said inflation has happened

 

inflation happened....and it has dropped significantly since this project was conceived.   a massive drop in inflation is hard to blame for current cost overruns.

[SoCal Deek]

44 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I men, that's one way to answer simple questions I guess.  But it's a poor dodge.

 

Explain how these contractors have led to cost overruns.  Everything you described would have been known and factored in a year ago.  You think Gilbane/Turner had no idea what a billion plus stadium project in NY (with all of its rude regarding unions/"MWBE"/etc?  Or that they had no concept of how to estimate "how long a project like this will take" (it's still on time, as far as we know)?  Flesh that out for us.

 

 

I won't ask you to back up your bad take on health care resource management.  You based it on a nurse telling you something about something...lol.

 

inflation happened....and it has dropped significantly since this project was conceived.   a massive drop in inflation is hard to blame for current cost overruns.

Inflation isn’t down! It’s just slowed the rate it’s going up! Geeeeeeeez! 

[billsfan89]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Inflation isn’t down! It’s just slowed the rate it’s going up! Geeeeeeeez! 

 

The rate to which prices are going up is down significantly in the past year or so. There's always usually at least a 1-2% rate of inflation since the beginning of the 20th century. 

[SoCal Deek]

8 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The rate to which prices are going up is down significantly in the past year or so. There's always usually at least a 1-2% rate of inflation since the beginning of the 20th century. 

That doesn’t mean prices are going down! Doesn’t anyone know how things actually work anymore? I mean….come on! 

[Mr. WEO]

21 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Inflation isn’t down! It’s just slowed the rate it’s going up! Geeeeeeeez! 

 

Defined as the rate at which prices are increasing, inflation is going down.  Prices are still going up as they always are all the time, but they are going up at less than half the pace they were 2 years ago. 
 

The rate at which prices were going up per year when the stadium was announced was 6-7%.  Knowing this, the general contractor would assume that would hold throughout (prices for goods and services of this project would increase 6-7% a year).  But in fact it’s less than half that.  So you cant blame “inflation” for overruns, when the rate at which prices are increasing is a fraction of what was originally budgeted for….

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

That doesn’t mean prices are going down! Doesn’t anyone know how things actually work anymore? I mean….come on! 

who said prices are going down?

 

you are the one conflating prices with inflation 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Defined as the rate at which prices are increasing, inflation is going down.  Prices are still going up as they always are all the time, but they are going up at less than half the pace they were 2 years ago. 
 

The rate at which prices were going up per year when the stadium was announced was 6-7%.  Knowing this, the general contractor would assume that would hold throughout (prices for goods and services of this project would increase 6-7% a year).  But in fact it’s less than half that.  So you cant blame “inflation” for overruns, when the rate at which prices are increasing is a fraction of what was originally budgeted for….

You have absolutely ZERO experience in construction. Just stop! 

[billsfan89]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

That doesn’t mean prices are going down! Doesn’t anyone know how things actually work anymore? I mean….come on! 

 

Yeah that's why I said the RATE to which things are INCREASING is going down. There's never been a time in modern American history where prices have gone down. Not sure why people don't understand this.