Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[Wacka]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

What in the world are you talking about? Fulton County Stadium was 1.9 miles from where Mercedes Benz Stadium is right now. In downtown. Less than 2 miles. You can walk from the old Fulton County Stadium to Mercedes Benz in 20-30 minutes. 

 

Your comparison - The intersection of 190 and 90 - is over 11 miles from downtown Buffalo. You would need over 3 hours.

 

1.9 miles is no way similar to 11 miles.

 

It's not 11 miles. The intersection of the 190 and 90 at the Buffalo/Cheektowaga city line  is more like 5 miles. I live about a mile farther away and if I get a little farther down mt street I can see most of the Seneca One Tower (the old Marine Midland 

Building). I heard the fireworks at the baseball stadium Friday night.

[UConn James]

Great, so we’ve got two sides here for the last several pages arguing whether OP could / should or could / should not allow or, what, be forced(?) into growing its businesses around the stadium. No one here’s gonna change their minds. It’s going to be up to land owners, businesspeople, and the OP P&Z… or if it gets to it, possibly the state using some sort of eminent domain since that Supreme Court ruling awhile back. Who knows. Money will have to grease the appropriate palms.

 

What may be a more viable thing is that all manner of food trucks could come in if the Bills or property owners could / would allow that. 
 

Personally, I don’t think businesses will want to move in and it seems like they’re not wanted.

Arguing this stuff is just moot.

[Wacka]

36 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I vote that all old malls need to be turned into retirement facilities for those of us raised in the 70's and 80's.  I mean, shopping, food court, video games right out side your door?  Hell yeah!

And having a nice walk in blizzard weather without going outside! And staring at all the babes walking around!😀

Hey babe, wanna borrow my walker?😀

Edited 3 hours ago by Wacka

[SoonerBillsFan]

3 minutes ago, Wacka said:

And having a nice walk in blizzard weather without going outside! And staring at all the babes walking around!😀

Hey babe, wanna borrow my walker?😀

Yes!!!

[Einstein]

37 minutes ago, Wacka said:

 

It's not 11 miles. The intersection of the 190 and 90 at the Buffalo/Cheektowaga city line  is more like 5 miles. I live about a mile farther away and if I get a little farther down mt street I can see most of the Seneca One Tower (the old Marine Midland 

Building). I heard the fireworks at the baseball stadium Friday night.

 

You’re right, it’s 6 miles. I was going based off memory. Point remains - it’s triple the distance.

[mrags]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

People comparing Atlanta to Buffalo is funny lol 

 

They have tons of Fortune 500 companies in their city and it's not because of their football team LOL 

 

Western New York doesn't have that economy that Fortune 500 companies want to put headquarters here

 

And building a football stadium won't change that... People are like think small , be small. Lol

 

Like if the Buffalo Bills built in downtown stadium it would instantly become a thriving metropolis with 700,000 people and seven Fortune 500 companies LOL 

 

I have a bridge to sell all of you in Brooklyn

 

Buffalo is a lot better spot than it was 30 years ago and it is beautiful city and we don't need anybody's approval

 

Complaining about this beautiful city when people don't even live here is outrageous

The argument is comparing Atlanta to what Buffalo could have been if the right decisions had been made for the last 50 years.
 

No, Buffalo doesn’t have the pull of Fortune 500 companies. But with the decisions being made, it never will. That’s the point. 
 

Building a stadium alone will not change that. Key word is alone. Again, the think small, be small decisions continue to rule over what you call “this beautiful city”. 
 

Atlanta didn’t pop up overnight. Just as much as Buffalo didn’t die over night. At one point Buffalo was one of the 10th largest cities in the US. Home to Millionaires Row. Back in those days, Buffalo was everything and more than what we consider a Fortune 500 city. 
 

yes, Buffalo is a lot better off than it was 30 years ago. But it is still declined in population from what it was 30 years ago. As far away as it may seem, back when the Bills were getting their start, Buffalo was still a top 15-20 populated city in the US. And when they moved to OP in 1973 the population had dropped over 20% since then. It’s not the fact that the stadium had moved that caused the decrease in population, this is true. But along with everything else, businesses were leaving the area. Along with that, jobs, opportunities, and a reason for staying for many other businesses. It’s a trickle down effect. 
 

yes, you are correct that people complaining about this city when they don’t live here is outrageous. Just as outrageous as people that don’t live here but they attend 8 games a year and tell us that the stadium should stay in OP because it will affect their tailgating experience. That is the biggest joke I’ve ever heard and it has been loud and clear from many since this whole thing started. 
 

for me, I’ve lived in Amherst, Tonawanda, North Tonawanda, Downtown Buffalo, Cheektowaga, Lancaster. I’ve also lived in Las Vegas back when there was 1.5m people living there. Now it’s home to 3m people just 20 years later. They didn’t get that way because they made bad decisions. They invested in their city. Yes there is much more to do there than Buffalo. But there wasn’t always. The city is Las Vegas is an infant compared to Buffalos history. Yet in its short life it has prospered. So again with the point that has been made many times. Think small, be small. At some point, this city will emerge from the cellars of nothingness, or it will continue to be a small town with a small town feel. And that’s fine, but then we shouldn’t expect things like the Bills to stay forever. If the city of Buffalo and its surrounding areas continue to lack investment, you will not see the Bills here after their 30 year lease is up, if it even takes that long. At that point we will all be asking ourselves what could we have done to keep them. Well, think small, be small. 
 

 

[Buffalo716]

25 minutes ago, mrags said:

The argument is comparing Atlanta to what Buffalo could have been if the right decisions had been made for the last 50 years.
 

No, Buffalo doesn’t have the pull of Fortune 500 companies. But with the decisions being made, it never will. That’s the point. 
 

Building a stadium alone will not change that. Key word is alone. Again, the think small, be small decisions continue to rule over what you call “this beautiful city”. 
 

Atlanta didn’t pop up overnight. Just as much as Buffalo didn’t die over night. At one point Buffalo was one of the 10th largest cities in the US. Home to Millionaires Row. Back in those days, Buffalo was everything and more than what we consider a Fortune 500 city. 
 

yes, Buffalo is a lot better off than it was 30 years ago. But it is still declined in population from what it was 30 years ago. As far away as it may seem, back when the Bills were getting their start, Buffalo was still a top 15-20 populated city in the US. And when they moved to OP in 1973 the population had dropped over 20% since then. It’s not the fact that the stadium had moved that caused the decrease in population, this is true. But along with everything else, businesses were leaving the area. Along with that, jobs, opportunities, and a reason for staying for many other businesses. It’s a trickle down effect. 
 

yes, you are correct that people complaining about this city when they don’t live here is outrageous. Just as outrageous as people that don’t live here but they attend 8 games a year and tell us that the stadium should stay in OP because it will affect their tailgating experience. That is the biggest joke I’ve ever heard and it has been loud and clear from many since this whole thing started. 
 

for me, I’ve lived in Amherst, Tonawanda, North Tonawanda, Downtown Buffalo, Cheektowaga, Lancaster. I’ve also lived in Las Vegas back when there was 1.5m people living there. Now it’s home to 3m people just 20 years later. They didn’t get that way because they made bad decisions. They invested in their city. Yes there is much more to do there than Buffalo. But there wasn’t always. The city is Las Vegas is an infant compared to Buffalos history. Yet in its short life it has prospered. So again with the point that has been made many times. Think small, be small. At some point, this city will emerge from the cellars of nothingness, or it will continue to be a small town with a small town feel. And that’s fine, but then we shouldn’t expect things like the Bills to stay forever. If the city of Buffalo and its surrounding areas continue to lack investment, you will not see the Bills here after their 30 year lease is up, if it even takes that long. At that point we will all be asking ourselves what could we have done to keep them. Well, think small, be small. 
 

 

Buffalo was one of the richest cities at the turn of the century when industry was still King .. 

 

We had steel mills and industry.. automotive factories

 

Also America has expanded in the last 80 years to places where people couldn't live 100 years ago... Like Las Vegas and Arizona... Air conditioning which was created in Western New York changed the landscape of American population

 

When the industry left , the city declined with it... Nothing was going to stop Buffalo's decline around the 50-70s ... The entire rust belt got hit with it ..  even though North Buffalo is still filled with million dollar homes

 

And on the flip side the last 30 years Buffalo has been in a revitalization

 

I'll tell you what, the people who live in Buffalo right now definitely don't want another 300,000 people in the city lol they like the feel of the smallest big city or the biggest small town 

 

And the population of Buffalo has absolutely nothing to do whether the bills stay or leave... Because there's millions of people in Western New York and Southern Ontario which is considered their demographic 

 

Who cares if there's only 260,000 people in Buffalo..  when there's a hundred thousand in cheektowaga and Amherst ... And a couple hundred thousand in the other towns combined

 

The bills are not leaving Buffalo..if there is an NFL in 30 years they'll still be here

 

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Buffalo716

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

 

This is a classic case of seeing the symptom rather than the disease. 

 

Corporations didn’t headquarter in Atlanta because they liked the humid air and home-cooked chicken. They did so because they saw the investment there.

 

Atlanta grew because people flock to jobs. Where are there jobs? Where businesses are. Where are there businesses? Where growth and investment is.

 

Outside of Coke, which is headquartered in Atlanta simply because Dr. John Stith Pemberton lived there when he invented Coke, the other companies moved to Atlanta because of investment. UPS IN 1991. Home Depot in 1978. Chik-Fil-A in 1967. Newell in 2016. NCR in 2009.

 

Chicken and the egg folks. Atlanta isn’t big because big companies go there. Big companies go there because Atlanta is big due to big investment.

Correct. But little of that has to do with stadium construction. 

[WotAGuy]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Sure, tax incentives, the airport (which is a huge driver) and all kinds of investments. What’s your point. What exactly are you suggesting, other than “investment”. You should have a say, since it would be coming out of your pocket. That’s the part people don’t like, and I don’t blame them since it’s often poorly managed. Are you saying they should have invested by doubling the cost? People have to buy what you are selling. What are we investing in, and who will pay for it? 

 

We have people complaining about taking the less expensive rout in OP, and it’s still too expensive. They can’t also complain that we didn’t spend twice as much downtown. That’s my point. 

 

 

 

Oh, and don’t look strictly at distances when you consider downtown Atlanta locations. We went to exactly one game at Turner Field, and you had better stick with the crowd. You can cross a road and find yourself in another world. It’s dangerous as hell once you get just a little south of the core area around Mercedes Benz Stadium. I don’t even like driving my car there. 

Einstein’s schtick is to start with a ridiculous premise, like stadiums downtown led to Atlanta’s growth, and then slowly transition his argument to a more realistic point, citing “investment”, all the while denying his original premise by saying it is just a piece of the puzzle. 🤣

Edited 1 hour ago by WotAGuy

[mrags]

42 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Buffalo was one of the richest cities at the turn of the century when industry was still King .. 

 

We had steel mills and industry.. automotive factories

 

Also America has expanded in the last 80 years to places where people couldn't live 100 years ago... Like Las Vegas and Arizona... Air conditioning which was created in Western New York changed the landscape of American population

 

When the industry left , the city declined with it... Nothing was going to stop Buffalo's decline around the 50-70s ... The entire rust belt got hit with it ..  even though North Buffalo is still filled with million dollar homes

 

And on the flip side the last 30 years Buffalo has been in a revitalization

 

I'll tell you what, the people who live in Buffalo right now definitely don't want another 300,000 people in the city lol they like the feel of the smallest big city or the biggest small town 

 

And the population of Buffalo has absolutely nothing to do whether the bills stay or leave... Because there's millions of people in Western New York and Southern Ontario which is considered their demographic 

 

Who cares if there's only 260,000 people in Buffalo..  when there's a hundred thousand in cheektowaga and Amherst ... And a couple hundred thousand in the other towns combined

 

The bills are not leaving Buffalo..if there is an NFL in 30 years they'll still be here

 

 

 

I used to make this argument about Buffalo as well. About the surrounding areas. The towns combined. As if other cities don’t have that also. It’s a comical argument.

 

“they like the feel of the smallest big city or the biggest small town” Thinks Small, Be Small at its finest. 
 

and you are 100% wrong. If there is an nfl in 30 years, there is almost zero chance that it keeps the Bills once the lease is up. At least if things continue as they are within the western New York area. I’d bet money it won’t even take that long. The southern Ontario mention is the best thing you said. If we wanted to ensure a team within distance to claim as our own, Toronto was the best place for them in the long term. 

[Buffalo716]

7 minutes ago, mrags said:

I used to make this argument about Buffalo as well. About the surrounding areas. The towns combined. As if other cities don’t have that also. It’s a comical argument.

 

“they like the feel of the smallest big city or the biggest small town” Thinks Small, Be Small at its finest. 
 

and you are 100% wrong. If there is an nfl in 30 years, there is almost zero chance that it keeps the Bills once the lease is up. At least if things continue as they are within the western New York area. I’d bet money it won’t even take that long. The southern Ontario mention is the best thing you said. If we wanted to ensure a team within distance to claim as our own, Toronto was the best place for them in the long term. 

Toronto was never getting a Bills team.. that was all 100% speculation that was fueled by mediahype

 

First if bon Jovi bought the bills.. Ralph Wilson had a ironclad claws that whoever bought the bills could not relocate them... It has been confirmed 

 

The buyer couldn't buy the team with the intention of moving it

 

Secondly.. the NFL and the CFL have had a 70-year agreement about a not infringing on their turf 

 

Toronto has a CFL team.. they were not and are never going to get an NFL team because the CFL and NFL have an agreement

 

I guarantee you my children and my children's children if there is an NFL will still get to watch the Bills 

 

I'm not worried about that at all.. and people have been talking about the bills relocating for 40 years lol it's fool's Gold because they're worth more in Buffalo than anywhere 

 

Even moving to San Antonio or st Louis does not bring as much to the league as they do in Buffalo

 

The league tried moving the historic Cleveland browns instantly regretted it and gave them a team back... They're not making that mistake with Buffalo

Edited 1 hour ago by Buffalo716

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Toronto was never getting a Bills team.. that was all 100% speculation that was fueled by mediahype

 

First if bon Jovi bought the bills.. Ralph Wilson had a ironclad claws that whoever bought the bills could not relocate them... It has been confirmed 

 

The buyer could not move the bills 

 

Secondly.. the NFL and the CFL have had a 70-year agreement about a not infringing on their turf 

 

Toronto has a CFL team.. they were not and are never going to get an NFL team because the CFL and NFL have an agreement

 

I guarantee you my children and my children's children if there is an NFL will still get to watch the Bills 

 

I'm not worried about that at all.. and people have been talking about the bills relocating for 40 years lol it's fool's Gold because they're worth more in Buffalo than anywhere 

 

Even moving to San Antonio does not bring as much to the league as they do in Buffalo

lol. Ok dude

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

lol. Ok dude

You think the bills are going to move and I don't

[mrags]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

You think the bills are going to move and I don't

The reasons for why we think these things are the argument. But you’ve lured me into just trying to express my point that the Bills wouldn’t be here in 30 years. But even if they were, it doesn’t take away from the fact that Buffalo continues to make mistake after mistake when it comes to its prosperity, or lack of. Which is the whole argument that I was discussing to begin with. 

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Einstein’s schtick is to start with a ridiculous premise, like stadiums downtown led to Atlanta’s growth, and then slowly transition his argument to a more realistic point, citing “investment”, all the while denying his original premise is just a piece of the puzzle. 🤣

 

His spectrum of work is quite broad, I have to give him credit for that. The tax return alone is legendary!   😂 

 

He never answered my question above about how happy he would be to play a part in footing the bill for the “investment” he calls for. How much more to you want to pay out of your pocket? Where else does the money come from? Don’t over-invest in what should be the by-products. Invest in the economic drivers. 

 

I bet Tyler Perry got a sweet deal taking over part of a military base south of Atlanta to create a production facility. Invest in that kind of stuff, because that creates jobs and wealth and consumers who can one day go to that lovely stadium.  

 

 

[Einstein]

44 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Einstein’s schtick is to start with a ridiculous premise, like stadiums downtown led to Atlanta’s growth

 

Reading comprehension is such a lost art.

 

 

44 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

and then slowly transition his argument to a more realistic point, citing “investment”

 

I guess writing about investment numerous times in the first ever post is “slowly transitioning” over time 😂. 

 

My very FIRST post in this conversation.