Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[Wacka]

16 minutes ago, mrags said:

Niagara Falls goes on for miles. From Buffalo all the way to Niagara Falls lol. And it’s busy and packed all the way. McKinley Mall and Quaker Crossing area cover what? 2 miles? That’s funny dude. And let’s not mention the fact that the McKinley mall is a failure. It’s closing its doors. Every business is moving out. 

 

The other malls are failures too. The Boulevard and Eastern Hills Malls are empty and will ne converted to mixed use.The Thruway Mall was converted back to a plaza. The Como Mall is an office "mall" although I still call iy the mall (I live about ½ mile away). I don't know how old you are b ut Southwestern from Transit to the Thruway was fields back in 1973.  McKinley was empty south of  Milestrip.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

23 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Think small, be small.  Promo knows all about that living in NH, amirite?

 

Oh snap, got me there. 🤣 Actually I live 55 minutes from downtown Boston and go there often for shows and dinners. It's one of the great parts of living in So. NH. You can choose the big city or the wilderness and either are a short drive away.

 

But I grew up on Buffalo's East Side. My first job was janitor at the Broadway Market. I know Buffalo from way back. And one of the worst aspects of WNY is being allergic to change. Now change isn't always better, but neither is being stuck in the past. 

Edited September 22 by PromoTheRobot

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

You pulled that straight out of you know where.

 

Stadiums in downtown Atlanta have been a key driver of the city's growth, starting with Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium in 1965 and continuing through the Georgia Dome and Mercedes-Benz Stadium. Each of these venues attracted major events like the Super Bowl, World Series, and the Olympics, which generated tourism, created jobs, and stimulated local businesses. But all of these developments were dwarfed by the stadium causing urban development to spur around it, including new hotels, restaurants, and transit improvements. Thats where big growth was. Oh - and also the marketing involved with hosting these events (1966 all-star game ring a bell?) elevated Atlanta's national profile.

Ok, settle down. There wasn't a WS, Super Bowl or Olympics until the 1990's.  If you ever went to Fulton County Stadium there wasn't development around it in the way you are talking about.  And neither Fulton County or the Olympic Stadium were "downtown" in the way people are talking about.  They were inside the beltway, in the city but not "downtown". The Georgia Dome moved the stadium DIRECTLY downtown and adjacent to their convention center.  That timing also coincided with Olympics development and the Super Bowl. The new football stadium is next door to the previous one so it's capitalizing on being downtown also.  The new baseball stadium is nowhere near that and was intentionally moved to where it is because getting downtown in Atlanta sucks and the Braves were able to control the land around the stadium and do all of the development we are discussing themselves. It's not like it was organic growth.  The area around their stadium is the equivalent of Disneyland. The Braves own all of it and control all of it. Nobody makes money from it except them.

[WotAGuy]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Oh snap, got me there. 🤣 Actually I live 55 minutes from downtown Boston and go there often for shows and dinners. It's one of the great parts of living in So. NH. You can choose the big city of the wilderness and either are a short drive away.

 

But I grew up on Buffalo's East Side. My first job was janitor at the Broadway Market. I know Buffalo from way back. And one of the worst aspects of WNY is it's allergic to change. Now change isn't always better, but neither is being stuck in the past. 

So if you don’t live there, and apparently the people who do like it the way it is, why do you care?

[PromoTheRobot]

3 minutes ago, Wacka said:

The other malls are failures too. The Boulevard and Eastern Hills Malls are empty and will ne converted to mixed use.The Thruway Mall was converted back to a plaza. The Como Mall is an office "mall" although I still call iy the mall (I live about ½ mile away). I don't know how old you are b ut Southwestern from Transit to the Thruway was fields back in 1973.  McKinley was empty south of  Milestrip.

 

Amazon and Walmart did malls in.

Just now, WotAGuy said:

So if you don’t live there, and apparently the people who do like it the way it is, why do you care?

 

Because it's my home and I want it to thrive. You don't thrive standing still. Big decisions that affect how folks live are made through political patronage and graft. Why is there a Metro Rail? Why is UB in a swamp in Amherst instead of downtown? Why didn't we build a domed stadium in Lancaster in 1969?  Why has the foot of main street only become nice recently? 

Edited September 22 by PromoTheRobot

[mrags]

42 minutes ago, WotAGuy said:

Think small, be small.  Promo knows all about that living in NH, amirite?

Or you talking about your precious Orchard Park 

Edited September 22 by mrags

[mrags]

16 minutes ago, Wacka said:

The other malls are failures too. The Boulevard and Eastern Hills Malls are empty and will ne converted to mixed use.The Thruway Mall was converted back to a plaza. The Como Mall is an office "mall" although I still call iy the mall (I live about ½ mile away). I don't know how old you are b ut Southwestern from Transit to the Thruway was fields back in 1973.  McKinley was empty south of  Milestrip.

 

Yeah and all of Amherst was fields and marshes as well. Just because the McKinley Mall and Quaker Crossing is in existence doesn’t mean that it was because of the stadium. Tell me how busy Transit road was north of the 90 at that time while you’re at it. Now it’s the busiest route in all of Western Ny almost every single day. 

[WotAGuy]

23 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Amazon and Walmart did malls in.

 

Because it's my home and I want it to thrive. You don't thrive standing still. Big decisions that affect how folks live are made through political patronage and graft. Why is there a Metro Rail? Why is UB in a swamp in Amherst instead of downtown? Why didn't we build a domed stadium in Lancaster in 1969?  Why has the foot of main street only become nice recently? 

Talk about living in the past!

[Einstein]

37 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Ok, settle down. There wasn't a WS, Super Bowl or Olympics until the 1990's.  If you ever went to Fulton County Stadium there wasn't development around it in the way you are talking about.  And neither Fulton County or the Olympic Stadium were "downtown" in the way people are talking about.  They were inside the beltway, in the city but not "downtown". The Georgia Dome moved the stadium DIRECTLY downtown and adjacent to their convention center.  That timing also coincided with Olympics development and the Super Bowl. The new football stadium is next door to the previous one so it's capitalizing on being downtown also.  The new baseball stadium is nowhere near that and was intentionally moved to where it is because getting downtown in Atlanta sucks and the Braves were able to control the land around the stadium and do all of the development we are discussing themselves. It's not like it was organic growth.  The area around their stadium is the equivalent of Disneyland. The Braves own all of it and control all of it. Nobody makes money from it except them.

 

You’re glossing over a critical piece of history. Fulton County Stadium and the events it hosted in the '60s and '70s put Atlanta on the sports map long before then. The 1966 MLB All-Star Game was a big deal and marked the city’s arrival on the national sports stage. You can’t just pretend that didn’t lay the groundwork for future developments. Not to mention Hank Aaron hitting his 715th home run in Atl, breaking Babe Ruth’s record. That moment was huge, not just for baseball, but for civil rights and the city’s identity. As for the "downtown" debate, you're splitting hairs. Fulton County Stadium was inside the city limits, close enough to downtown that it was part of the city's core sports infrastructure. Just because it wasn’t a stone’s throw from a skyscraper doesn’t mean it didn’t contribute to Atlanta’s urban growth. It’s also ironic considering you can’t even see a downtown building from OP.

 

All that being said, and as I said on the last page, we all know that stadiums are not the sole reason for development. Obviously not. No one is arguing that. No need to create strawman arguments. We are stating that it is part of solution.

 

Edited September 22 by Einstein

[That's No Moon]

If you want evidence that stadiums don't create offshoot business by themselves look at Philadelphia.  Philadelphia has had some degree of sports complex in the same spot since the 1970's.  First it was the Vet and the Spectrum across the street from each other, no it Lincoln Financial, Citizens Bank Park and the Wells Fargo Center all together in the same place.  There is something going on at that complex almost every night of the year between the Phillies 82 home dates, the Eagles 11ish home games, the Flyers 41 home dates, the Sixers 40 something home dates, lacrosse games, concerts, etc.

 

There is absolutely nothing there that isn't either in the stadium itself or directly owned by Comcast.  Very recently, Comcast built the Xfinity Live building with some bars and restaurants inside it to serve the pre-game and post-game crowd but that is all. That isn't an example or organic development.  Everything else is a sea of parking lots and industrial buildings.  The one hotel that was built to serve that site was a dump and has since been remodeled.

[That's No Moon]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

As for the "downtown" debate, you're splitting hairs. Fulton County Stadium was inside the city limits, close enough to downtown that it was part of the city's core sports infrastructure. Just because it wasn’t a stone’s throw from a skyscraper doesn’t mean it didn’t contribute to Atlanta’s urban growth. It’s also ironic considering you can’t even see a downtown building from OP.

Where Fulton County was is the Buffalo equivalent of putting a stadium at the intersection of the 190 and 90, or the 190 and the Scajaquada.  Yes it's in the city, no it's not downtown, and no it's not splitting hairs.  Fulton County had NOTHING around it. I was there in 1995 and that should have reflected the peak of it's development.

 

Stadiums like Fulton County weren't even intended to contribute to urban development in the way you are suggesting.  They were built for ease of access from the suburbs as teams abandoned the city centers and if anything they detracted from urban development.  Virtually all of the stadiums from that era had the same blueprint. Find an intersection of highways, bulldoze a huge swath of land, plunk down a (usually round) stadium in the center of parking lots. Repeat. The Vet complex, Fulton County, Arrowhead and Kaufmann Stadium, Jack Murphy Stadium, Shea Stadium, Rich Stadium and the original Lancaster Dome would have done that.

 

That trend continued basically up to the construction of Camden Yards in Baltimore and if you go there it didn't really "create" development by itself, it was something added closer to the end of a massive redevelopment of the Inner Harbor to augment it, not to drive it.

 

A stadium can help capitalize on development that already exists, such as the Bridgestone Arena in Nashville or whatever they call the Roomba in Vegas.  It doesn't move the needle at all in terms of creating it.

 

Atlanta having the Braves at all was much more of a reflection of the growth and burgeoning economic strength of Atlanta than the stadium they built for them or an AS game they had once.

[K-9]

While stadiums didn't hurt development in Atlanta, they played little part in the city's development. Instead, it's the fact that Atlanta is headquarters for many large corporations, including over a dozen Fortune 500 companies that sparked it's boom over the last 50 years or so. 

[Einstein]

36 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Where Fulton County was is the Buffalo equivalent of putting a stadium at the intersection of the 190 and 90, or the 190 and the Scajaquada.  Yes it's in the city, no it's not downtown, and no it's not splitting hairs. 

 

What in the world are you talking about? Fulton County Stadium was 1.9 miles from where Mercedes Benz Stadium is right now. In downtown. Less than 2 miles. You can walk from the old Fulton County Stadium to Mercedes Benz in 20-30 minutes. 

 

Your comparison - The intersection of 190 and 90 - is over 11 miles from downtown Buffalo. You would need over 3 hours.

 

1.9 miles is no way similar to 11 miles.

Edited September 22 by Einstein

[Augie]

15 minutes ago, K-9 said:

While stadiums didn't hurt development in Atlanta, they played little part in the city's development. Instead, it's the fact that Atlanta is headquarters for many large corporations, including over a dozen Fortune 500 companies that sparked it's boom over the last 50 years or so. 

 

A quick search comes up with 16 Fortune 500 companies in Atlanta as of 2024. Companies like Home Depot, Coca-Cola, UPS, The Southern Co and Delta Airlines are the reason for the growth. Having the busiest airport in the world is also a reason many people live here. I think the stadiums are more of a byproduct than a driver. 

[mrags]

9 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

A quick search comes up with 16 Fortune 500 companies in Atlanta as of 2024. Companies like Home Depot, Coca-Cola, UPS, The Southern Co and Delta Airlines are the reason for the growth. Having the busiest airport in the world is also a reason many people live here. I think the stadiums are more of a byproduct than a driver. 

Think small, be small 

[Einstein]

5 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

A quick search comes up with 16 Fortune 500 companies in Atlanta as of 2024. Companies like Home Depot, Coca-Cola, UPS, The Southern Co and Delta Airlines are the reason for the growth. Having the busiest airport in the world is also a reason many people live here. I think the stadiums are more of a byproduct than a driver. 

 

This is a classic case of seeing the symptom rather than the disease. 

 

Corporations didn’t headquarter in Atlanta because they liked the humid air and home-cooked chicken. They did so because they saw the investment there.

 

Atlanta grew because people flock to jobs. Where are there jobs? Where businesses are. Where are there businesses? Where growth and investment is.

 

Outside of Coke, which is headquartered in Atlanta simply because Dr. John Stith Pemberton lived there when he invented Coke, the other companies moved to Atlanta because of investment. UPS IN 1991. Home Depot in 1978. Chik-Fil-A in 1967. Newell in 2016. NCR in 2009.

 

Chicken and the egg folks. Atlanta isn’t big because big companies go there. Big companies go there because Atlanta is big due to big investment.

[That's No Moon]

16 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

What in the world are you talking about? Fulton County Stadium was 1.9 miles from where Mercedes Benz Stadium is right now. In downtown. Less than 2 miles. You can walk from the old Fulton County Stadium to Mercedes Benz in 20-30 minutes. 

 

Your comparison - The intersection of 190 and 90 - is over 11 miles from downtown Buffalo. You would need over 3 hours.

 

1.9 miles is no way similar to 11 miles.

That intersection is 4.5 miles from City Hall as the crow flies. Coincidentally, you know what is about a mile and a half from City Hall?  The intersection of Best and Jefferson.  Is that downtown?

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Wacka said:

The other malls are failures too. The Boulevard and Eastern Hills Malls are empty and will ne converted to mixed use.The Thruway Mall was converted back to a plaza. The Como Mall is an office "mall" although I still call iy the mall (I live about ½ mile away). I don't know how old you are b ut Southwestern from Transit to the Thruway was fields back in 1973.  McKinley was empty south of  Milestrip.

 

I vote that all old malls need to be turned into retirement facilities for those of us raised in the 70's and 80's.  I mean, shopping, food court, video games right out side your door?  Hell yeah!

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Einstein said:

 

This is a classic case of seeing the symptom rather than the disease. 

 

Corporations didn’t headquarter in Atlanta because they liked the humid air and home-cooked chicken. They did so because they saw the investment there.

 

Atlanta grew because people flock to jobs. Where are there jobs? Where businesses are. Where are there businesses? Where growth and investment is.

 

Outside of Coke, which is headquartered in Atlanta simply because Dr. John Stith Pemberton lived there when he invented Coke, the other companies moved to Atlanta because of investment. UPS IN 1991. Home Depot in 1978. Chik-Fil-A in 1967. Newell in 2016. NCR in 2009.

 

Sure, tax incentives, the airport (which is a huge driver) and all kinds of investments. What’s your point. What exactly are you suggesting, other than “investment”. You should have a say, since it would be coming out of your pocket. That’s the part people don’t like, and I don’t blame them since it’s often poorly managed. Are you saying they should have invested by doubling the cost? People have to buy what you are selling. What are we investing in, and who will pay for it? 

 

We have people complaining about taking the less expensive rout in OP, and it’s still too expensive. They can’t also complain that we didn’t spend twice as much downtown. That’s my point. 

 

 

 

Oh, and don’t look strictly at distances when you consider downtown Atlanta locations. We went to exactly one game at Turner Field, and you had better stick with the crowd. You can cross a road and find yourself in another world. It’s dangerous as hell once you get just a little south of the core area around Mercedes Benz Stadium. I don’t even like driving my car there. 

[Buffalo716]

People comparing Atlanta to Buffalo is funny lol 

 

They have tons of Fortune 500 companies in their city and it's not because of their football team LOL 

 

Western New York doesn't have that economy that Fortune 500 companies want to put headquarters here

 

And building a football stadium won't change that... People are like think small , be small. Lol

 

Like if the Buffalo Bills built in downtown stadium it would instantly become a thriving metropolis with 700,000 people and seven Fortune 500 companies LOL 

 

I have a bridge to sell all of you in Brooklyn

 

Buffalo is a lot better spot than it was 30 years ago and it is beautiful city and we don't need anybody's approval

 

Complaining about this beautiful city when people don't even live here is outrageous

Edited September 22 by Buffalo716