Stadium Construction Discussion (No PSL/Seat selection posts)

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh? These are two completely different projects with completely different construction contracts. As I’ve said many times, most mid-schedule cost ‘overruns’ are due to the Owner changing their mind or making an upgrade to the project. After a certain point in the progress they’re not due to what are called ‘unforeseen conditions’. The Bills Stadium is certainly well past the unforeseen conditions point. 

There’s no doubt that NY State is such a place….but that pocket lining happens when the initial construction contracts are signed; not via what are known as ‘Change Orders’ after construction begins. 

I read back a bit, but I don't think I'm following well. I'm interested in architecture, but I'm not an expert. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be implying a change in plans from the original project? I'm not sure what that could possibly be.

[Buffalo716]

19 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Huh? These are two completely different projects with completely different construction contracts. As I’ve said many times, most mid-schedule cost ‘overruns’ are due to the Owner changing their mind or making an upgrade to the project. After a certain point in the progress they’re not due to what are called ‘unforeseen conditions’. The Bills Stadium is certainly well past the unforeseen conditions point. 

There’s no doubt that NY State is such a place….but that pocket lining happens when the initial construction contracts are signed; not via what are known as ‘Change Orders’ after construction begins. 

Yeah for sure 

 

As to why the cost is going hundreds of millions of dollars over I'm sure you know more than others because you're an architect right

 

Obviously inflation and cost of raw materials is the biggest but

 

I would assume also because they're using union labor and it's not cheap

 

 

Edited Sunday at 07:43 PM by Buffalo716

[richNjoisy]

My understanding is that the increased costs are not labor but the cost of materials which are way up.

[Mike in Horseheads]

Because NYS grants were given then it forced them to MWBE contracts meaning higher costs no matter what they say.  I've dealt with the MWBE process as a CFO at a NFP in Elmira. Trust me its  no fun and mostly a waste of time. Trying to get a waiver is a giant PIA

[WotAGuy]

8 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

$2.1B and no dome...absolute travesty

Think of how much the overruns on a more expensive dome would be. 

[WotAGuy]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I read back a bit, but I don't think I'm following well. I'm interested in architecture, but I'm not an expert. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be implying a change in plans from the original project? I'm not sure what that could possibly be.

The linked article suggests they have added things that were either not thought of during the design phase, or were added as expanded amenities. 
 

Even on the house remodel we did 10 years ago, there were constantly things that the crew suggested as nice add-ons that we didn’t consider when designing the remodel. I imagine the same thing has happened here, based on the quotes in the article. 

[SoCal Deek]

12 hours ago, Dr. Who said:

I read back a bit, but I don't think I'm following well. I'm interested in architecture, but I'm not an expert. If I understand you correctly, you seem to be implying a change in plans from the original project? I'm not sure what that could possibly be.

Someone said it well below. As a project progresses, especially one the size and complexity of an NFL stadium, there are literally hundreds of design decisions yet to be made. Dozens every single week. They could be something as small as a chase to conceal a pipe or a wholistic change in the fit and finishes of the restrooms. Would the stadium function just fine without those changes? Sure! But most times the Owner says to the design/construction team that they’re willing to pay extra to make the change for the long term durability and final aesthetic.
 

The architects meet with the Owner and Contractor once a week to discuss progress and make decisions on a wide variety of changes. In the vast majority of cases those changes have no impact on cost, but sometimes they do. If the Contractor has made an error (and they often do) then new drawings are created to accommodate the ‘screw up’ and there isn’t a cost to the project. If the Owner asks to make a change then once again new drawings are created and the additional costs are passed on to the Owner. And finally, if there are changes required by outside agencies (County, City, Utility Co) or market conditions (inflation) outside the control of either the Owner or Contractor then those too are often an additional cost to the project. 
 

I hope that explains it. 

[Dr. Who]

26 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Someone said it well below. As a project progresses, especially one the size and complexity of an NFL stadium, there are literally hundreds of design decisions yet to be made. Dozens every single week. They could be something as small as a chase to conceal a pipe or a wholistic change in the fit and finishes of the restrooms. Would the stadium function just fine without those changes? Sure! But most times the Owner says to the design/construction team that they’re willing to pay extra to make the change for the long term durability and final aesthetic.
 

The architects meet with the Owner and Contractor once a week to discuss progress and make decisions on a wide variety of changes. In the vast majority of cases those changes have no impact on cost, but sometimes they do. If the Contractor has made an error (and they often do) then new drawings are created to accommodate the ‘screw up’ and there isn’t a cost to the project. If the Owner asks to make a change then once again new drawings are created and the additional costs are passed on to the Owner. And finally, if there are changes required by outside agencies (County, City, Utility Co) or market conditions (inflation) outside the control of either the Owner or Contractor then those too are often an additional cost to the project. 
 

I hope that explains it. 

That is quite helpful. It rather boggles my mind that it could accrue to the level indicated in the escalating price of the stadium, but the general principle is clear. Thanks very much.

[boyst]

40 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Someone said it well below. As a project progresses, especially one the size and complexity of an NFL stadium, there are literally hundreds of design decisions yet to be made. Dozens every single week. They could be something as small as a chase to conceal a pipe or a wholistic change in the fit and finishes of the restrooms. Would the stadium function just fine without those changes? Sure! But most times the Owner says to the design/construction team that they’re willing to pay extra to make the change for the long term durability and final aesthetic.
 

The architects meet with the Owner and Contractor once a week to discuss progress and make decisions on a wide variety of changes. In the vast majority of cases those changes have no impact on cost, but sometimes they do. If the Contractor has made an error (and they often do) then new drawings are created to accommodate the ‘screw up’ and there isn’t a cost to the project. If the Owner asks to make a change then once again new drawings are created and the additional costs are passed on to the Owner. And finally, if there are changes required by outside agencies (County, City, Utility Co) or market conditions (inflation) outside the control of either the Owner or Contractor then those too are often an additional cost to the project. 
 

I hope that explains it. 

Tell me you work in PE without telling me you work in PE.

 

But, literally, this. What pisses me off the most is poor sourcing. Vendors saying they can get enough schedule 40 but only able to provide 80% of the necessary amount so it's back to the drawing board. Or the electric is behind because the cure time on concrete saws were not scheduled to run channels.

 

Don't even get me started on f-ups from European suppliers. They've been backwards for 5 yrs and their egos won't accept they're not the old European folks - especially the damn Krauts. 

 

[WotAGuy]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

Tell me you work in PE without telling me you work in PE.

 

But, literally, this. What pisses me off the most is poor sourcing. Vendors saying they can get enough schedule 40 but only able to provide 80% of the necessary amount so it's back to the drawing board. Or the electric is behind because the cure time on concrete saws were not scheduled to run channels.

 

Don't even get me started on f-ups from European suppliers. They've been backwards for 5 yrs and their egos won't accept they're not the old European folks - especially the damn Krauts. 

 

I hired an electrician to replace the service coming into my house and he wouldn’t give me a firm price for the wire until about a week before the install because the price changes so rapidly and inventory is uncertain. 
 

Even getting medical procedures done, like blood work, MRIs and CT scans take longer because of 2020 Covid impacts on medical staff coming into the practices. 
 

Covid has had lasting impacts on supply chain and availability of staff.  

[Ya Digg?]

13 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah for sure 

 

As to why the cost is going hundreds of millions of dollars over I'm sure you know more than others because you're an architect right

 

I would assume it's because they're using union labor and it's not cheap

Wait, you think the over costs are because of union workers???

 

yikes dude, talk about a streeeeeeeeeeeetch 

[Just Jack]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

Don't even get me started on f-ups from European suppliers. They've been backwards for 5 yrs and their egos won't accept they're not the old European folks - especially the damn Krauts. 

 

My Dad used to work in a paper plant here in the US, owned by a (at the time West) German company.  He found a flaw in the paper they were sending over and explained to them what was causing it.  They did not believe him, so he had to fly over and show them in person.  There was much screaming and crying among the employees there that the American had showed them how they f'ed up.  

[Sabres 2025]

1 hour ago, Ya Digg? said:

Wait, you think the over costs are because of union workers???

 

yikes dude, talk about a streeeeeeeeeeeetch 

 

That is part of it, whether you want to admit it or not. Labor costs are a factor in the rising costs of the stadium. How could they not be.

15 hours ago, richNjoisy said:

My understanding is that the increased costs are not labor but the cost of materials which are way up.

 

It is mostly increased materials cost, but labor is a factor. No different than building a house. People don't work for free and there is a timeline for building anything. 

[Ya Digg?]

4 minutes ago, Sabres 2025 said:

 

That is part of it, whether you want to admit it or not. Labor costs are a factor in the rising costs of the stadium. How could they not be.

 

It is mostly increased materials cost, but labor is a factor. No different than building a house. People don't work for free and there is a timeline for building anything. 

Oh it’s definitely part of it-the post I was responding to made it sound like that was the main reason. Certainly a factor (which who cares, if they work on building this stadium for a year +, they should get paid more) but the main reason is going to be materials 

[SoonerBillsFan]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Someone said it well below. As a project progresses, especially one the size and complexity of an NFL stadium, there are literally hundreds of design decisions yet to be made. Dozens every single week. They could be something as small as a chase to conceal a pipe or a wholistic change in the fit and finishes of the restrooms. Would the stadium function just fine without those changes? Sure! But most times the Owner says to the design/construction team that they’re willing to pay extra to make the change for the long term durability and final aesthetic.
 

The architects meet with the Owner and Contractor once a week to discuss progress and make decisions on a wide variety of changes. In the vast majority of cases those changes have no impact on cost, but sometimes they do. If the Contractor has made an error (and they often do) then new drawings are created to accommodate the ‘screw up’ and there isn’t a cost to the project. If the Owner asks to make a change then once again new drawings are created and the additional costs are passed on to the Owner. And finally, if there are changes required by outside agencies (County, City, Utility Co) or market conditions (inflation) outside the control of either the Owner or Contractor then those too are often an additional cost to the project. 
 

I hope that explains it. 

So you are saying Terry can meet with them this week and they csn still draw up putting a dome on the stadium at this stage?

[Sabres 2025]

2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

Oh it’s definitely part of it-the post I was responding to made it sound like that was the main reason. Certainly a factor (which who cares, if they work on building this stadium for a year +, they should get paid more) but the main reason is going to be materials 

 

I don't know the specifics, but you are likely correct that material costs is driving this. It is possible they are making a lot of changes along the way and that is leading to increased labor costs, but people get paid for work, they are not there to work for free. Are union workers more expensive? They can be and are often not needed for many jobs, but this is a stadium and there is not way you are building a stadium without highly skilled union workers like electricians, plumbers, etc.

[Buffalo716]

5 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Wait, you think the over costs are because of union workers???

 

yikes dude, talk about a streeeeeeeeeeeetch 

Well there's cheap labor around the country for 10 dollars an hour 

 

All of the union workers on the stadium are all getting a comfortable penny.. they're all getting 30 plus dollars an hour 

 

Add in inflation.. which was in my original post.. so inflation and increased prices of Labor

 

Construction workers can get $15 an hour in Tennessee.. some of the union workers on the stadium are getting 50 an hour 

 

I never said it added a billion dollars but even New York state says inflation and labor cost has increased the price of the stadium 

 

Labor cost with good union workers is more expensive

Edited Sunday at 07:39 PM by Buffalo716

[Ya Digg?]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well there's labor around the country for $7 $8, 10 dollars an hour 

 

All of the union workers on the stadium are all getting a comfortable penny.. they're all getting 30 plus dollars an hour 

 

Add in inflation

 

Construction workers can get $15 an hour in Tennessee.. some of the union workers on the stadium are getting 50 an hour 

 

I never said it added a billion dollars but even New York state says inflation and labor cost has increased the price of the stadium 

 

Labor cost with good union workers is more expensive

So what you should be saying is thank god there are unions for these guys out there so grown adults aren’t getting paid $9-$15 per hour to do highly skilled work 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

So what you should be saying is thank god there are unions for these guys out there so grown adults aren’t getting paid $9-$15 per hour to do highly skilled work 

Never said unions were bad.. fact they get good pay for the common people 

 

Now do I think there's people making $10 an hour on the Tennessee stadium? No but there is $10 labor across the country 

 

There's probably dudes working on the stadium in Tennessee for 20 bucks an hour... But the guys working on our stadium are getting probably 30 at the minimum and some are probably getting 50 plus dollars an hour 

 

Inflation has also been devastating on Western New York.. the cost of even raw materials has probably ballooned and that's where the real price change comes

Edited Sunday at 07:42 PM by Buffalo716

[RiotAct]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

 

Inflation has also been devastating on Western New York

Could have fooled me with all the luxury vehicles I see on the 290 every morning and the PSLs getting snapped up like hotcakes!