Rd 7, Pick 230: G Nick Broeker, Mississippi

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Perhaps the most backhanded compliment of a player I've ever read.  LOL

 

That is pretty much the simplified strategy of pass protection, give ground grudgingly. If you try to keep the man on the line your qb will be in the dirt. 

[John from Riverside]

57 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

At a higher level, something is amiss at OBD in how they view building an offense.  From identification of their scheme, using UFA and the draft to acquire/fit personnel to it, then finally game-planning and in-game adjustments.  It shouldn't take having a hand-shake deal with a veteran RB to recognize value in a specific draft as they did with this pick of Broeker.  

 

It's been 6 complete off-season with this HC and GM to learn and grow in personnel decisions.  Some of it just ain't changing much...even with having a franchise QB.  I suspect they think the best way to help Josh is taking the ball out of his hands and having depth because the position gets banged up so much.  I still don't understand why.   

What you said makes no sense to me. Could you elaborate on a little further?

[eball]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

At a higher level, something is amiss at OBD in how they view building an offense.  From identification of their scheme, using UFA and the draft to acquire/fit personnel to it, then finally game-planning and in-game adjustments.  It shouldn't take having a hand-shake deal with a veteran RB to recognize value in a specific draft as they did with this pick of Broeker.  

 

It's been 6 complete off-season with this HC and GM to learn and grow in personnel decisions.  Some of it just ain't changing much...even with having a franchise QB.  I suspect they think the best way to help Josh is taking the ball out of his hands and having depth because the position gets banged up so much.  I still don't understand why.   

 

What is "amiss" is that when player acquisitions don't work out, fans blame the GM's "strategy" rather than acknowledging that every plan doesn't pan out.  Beane has tried to build the offense up around Josh every year.

 

 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, eball said:

What is "amiss" is that when player acquisitions don't work out fans blame the GM's "strategy" rather than acknowledging that every plan doesn't pan out.  Beane has tried to build the offense up around Josh every year.

 

Their approach to running backs is to keep adding more and then either use them sparingly or not use much at all.  Hines had 11 touches in 9 games (EDIT: from scrimmage) and Cook 111 (Edit: touches) all year as a RD2 pick.  At some point, the investment has to align with use or it's a waste.         

 

Then, their OL is a grab bag.  Some are power types like Bates, Torrance, and Brown who look good as run blockers but aren't as adept in pass pro.  But they also feature a presumed starting LG in McGovern and C in Morse who are known more for their pass blocking.      

 

That ain't an aligned offense...which is why I think they're trying to feature different looks, but NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  Do one thing with superior talent and some audacity...no need to get cute.  

Edited May 2, 2023 by BillsVet

[eball]

37 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Their approach to running backs is to keep adding more and then either use them sparingly or not use much at all.  Hines had 11 touches in 9 games (EDIT: from scrimmage) and Cook 111 (Edit: touches) all year as a RD2 pick.  At some point, the investment has to align with use or it's a waste.         

 

Then, their OL is a grab bag.  Some are power types like Bates, Torrance, and Brown who look good as run blockers but aren't as adept in pass pro.  But they also feature a presumed starting LG in McGovern and C in Morse who are known more for their pass blocking.      

 

That ain't an aligned offense...which is why I think they're trying to feature different looks, but NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  Do one thing with superior talent and some audacity...no need to get cute.  

 

Torrence didn't give up a sack last year -- in the SEC.  If you're going to assert something as fact, at least have your stuff straight.

 

Cook's use increased as the season went on -- what you would expect for a rookie.

 

The meshing of an OL is an art, not a science.  I think you bring in guys with talent and you expect your coaches to put them together in the best way.  Clearly the Bills are a passing team that wants to be able to run the ball when they have to.  I don't think they are "misaligned."

 

 

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

 NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  

I'm not arguing with you, because you may be right.   But McDermott and Beane clearly disagree.   Their objective is to be so good at both that the defense has to make difficult personnel and style choices.  What they've done on the offensive line and in the backfield screams that they are determined to run the ball effectively, whenever they want.   They want to run to set up the pass just as much as they want the pass to set up the run.  

[Sierra Foothills]

7 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Their approach to running backs is to keep adding more and then either use them sparingly or not use much at all.  Hines had 11 touches in 9 games (EDIT: from scrimmage) and Cook 111 (Edit: touches) all year as a RD2 pick.  At some point, the investment has to align with use or it's a waste.         

 

Then, their OL is a grab bag.  Some are power types like Bates, Torrance, and Brown who look good as run blockers but aren't as adept in pass pro.  But they also feature a presumed starting LG in McGovern and C in Morse who are known more for their pass blocking.      

 

That ain't an aligned offense...which is why I think they're trying to feature different looks, but NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  Do one thing with superior talent and some audacity...no need to get cute.  

 

Geez BV.

 

This team has been 62-35 under McDermott and made the playoffs 5 out of 6 years.

 

In the last 3 years they're 37-12. That's better than a .750 winning percentage.

 

After the 17 year drought I'm really enjoying this era.

 

 

 

 

[BillsVet]

1 hour ago, Sierra Foothills said:

Geez BV.

 

This team has been 62-35 under McDermott and made the playoffs 5 out of 6 years.

 

In the last 3 years they're 37-12. That's better than a .750 winning percentage.

 

After the 17 year drought I'm really enjoying this era.

 

Can you imagine McD and Beane getting up in front of the assembled leadership last Thursday night at OBD reminding everyone how they were 37-12 since 2020 and that's doggone good enough?  Probably wouldn't do much espirit de corps.  

 

It's not illegal to be satisfied with losing in the divisional round...but it's also shooting real low when the objective is there to be reached. 

 

 

[Chandler#81]

9 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Their approach to running backs is to keep adding more and then either use them sparingly or not use much at all.  Hines had 11 touches in 9 games (EDIT: from scrimmage) and Cook 111 (Edit: touches) all year as a RD2 pick.  At some point, the investment has to align with use or it's a waste.         

 

Then, their OL is a grab bag.  Some are power types like Bates, Torrance, and Brown who look good as run blockers but aren't as adept in pass pro.  But they also feature a presumed starting LG in McGovern and C in Morse who are known more for their pass blocking.      

 

That ain't an aligned offense...which is why I think they're trying to feature different looks, but NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  Do one thing with superior talent and some audacity...no need to get cute.  

It’s rare, but I disagree with you on your take here. 
Every year, more and more teams are transferring their O scheme to opponent specific designs. 4D chess as it were. The days offenses being 1 dimensional ala “power run team ‘OR’ downfield passing one” are long gone. Ergo, having OL & RBs with diversified skill sets is a key ingredient to being capable of changing your stripes. Add in a cold weather team with a great passer and becomes essential to maintaining a winning team.

[Sierra Foothills]

2 hours ago, BillsVet said:

Can you imagine McD and Beane getting up in front of the assembled leadership last Thursday night at OBD reminding everyone how they were 37-12 since 2020 and that's doggone good enough?  Probably wouldn't do much espirit de corps.  

 

It's not illegal to be satisfied with losing in the divisional round...but it's also shooting real low when the objective is there to be reached. 

 

 

BV, my point is that there are too many old curmudgeons on this forum and not enough people who actually seem to be enjoying themselves.

 

That's the point of all this, isn't it?

 

 

[BillsVet]

10 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

It’s rare, but I disagree with you on your take here. 
Every year, more and more teams are transferring their O scheme to opponent specific designs. 4D chess as it were. The days offenses being 1 dimensional ala “power run team ‘OR’ downfield passing one” are long gone. Ergo, having OL & RBs with diversified skill sets is a key ingredient to being capable of changing your stripes. Add in a cold weather team with a great passer and becomes essential to maintaining a winning team.

 

Most people don't realize that Buffalo has in some ways run the ball better each year since 2020.  From averaging 4.2 yards per carry in 2020 to 4.8 in 2021 to 5.2 in 2022.  Attempts and the ratio of run to pass is similar as well.  I used averages given that Buffalo had 16 and 30 teams had 17.  

 

At the same time, the passing game has declined since 2020: from 3rd in passing yards, 4th in yards/attempt, and 3rd in yards/game, with a similar number of attempts each year to 8th, 7th, and 7th for the same categories respectively in 2022.  

 

This is high level and I'm not solely citing the run game for why the passing game regressed.  Lots of other factors involved.  

 

Looking at KC and CIN neither are as adept in the ground game and rank well down of Buffalo Why?  Because the passing game makes up for a less than average running game.  You don't need offensive balance to be a high-performing offense anymore.  Doesn't mean to completely ignore the run game either, but putting big resources into the run game isn't as value added as people want to believe.     

 

[Chandler#81]

Imo, our “respectable” running game is simply our Unicorn QB. Many of his “official “ rushing attempts start out as a passing play or RPO. We don’t have a true running game and haven’t since Allen’s 2nd season. Does it show up well in the stat sheet? Yes. But…

Edited May 5, 2023 by Chandler#81

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

It’s rare, but I disagree with you on your take here. 
Every year, more and more teams are transferring their O scheme to opponent specific designs. 4D chess as it were. The days offenses being 1 dimensional ala “power run team ‘OR’ downfield passing one” are long gone. Ergo, having OL & RBs with diversified skill sets is a key ingredient to being capable of changing your stripes. Add in a cold weather team with a great passer and becomes essential to maintaining a winning team.

I think this is a good description.   It clearly describes how the Pats succeeded on offense.   It's what KC does, too, although they certainly feature the pass.   

 

Ladainian Tomlinson, Adrian Peterson, Ezekiel Elliott, Saquan Barkley, and Lamar Jackson have proved over and over that a run-dominant offense can't win consistently enough, but it's also clear that a pass-dominant offense, although better, can't win enough, either.   You have to be able to run the ball, and the Bills have been trying for years to build a run game that complements the pass.  This year they've committed to some personnel changes with the intention of making it happen.  

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

Looking at KC and CIN neither are as adept in the ground game and rank well down of Buffalo Why?  Because the passing game makes up for a less than average running game.  You don't need offensive balance to be a high-performing offense anymore.  Doesn't mean to completely ignore the run game either, but putting big resources into the run game isn't as value added as people want to believe.     

 

You make good points, but I don't think this is correct.  I think we tend to overemphasize whatever last year's best team did, and to think that they have the key to building a team.  I think if you try to mimic that style, you're always a step or two behind the competition, because almost every season someone comes along playing a different style that succeeds.  We saw defenses adjust last season to shut down the Bills passing attack AND the Chiefs passing attack.  The Chiefs adjusted well, and tweaked their offense in ways that allowed them to succeed.  But I would argue that the Chiefs' model (which features the pass so heavily) will work less well than what the Bills are trying to, because having a truly versatile offense that can put up 150-yard rushing games consistently is better way to go than hoping you can keep readjusting your passing game.  

 

I'm expecting to see it this season - a team that will win by saying to the opponent, "Okay, if you're committing all day to stopping our pass, we will pound the ball and beat you with 200 yards on the ground."  

[AuntieEm]

On 5/1/2023 at 5:47 PM, No_Matter_What said:

 

I'd love him to make a roster, but who do you think he can replace?

 

There are 5 interior guys ahead of him - Morse, Torrence, Bates, McGovern and Edwards. I can see him fighting for spot with the last one, but he has $1.7M fully guaranteed contract. I know Beane can do what he did last summer with Howard, but it is still an uphill battle for Broeker. And that doesn't even count with Boettger.

 

Or do you guys think he can fight with Doyle or Quess for OT spot?

 

Let's say he does look like he can be developed to a starting level. If they have excess guards they can trade some for draft capital at end of preseason.  OL talent is in big demand and supply is really limited so never hurts to have too many.

 

 

[SCBills]

Bengals Playoff Offense was highly dependent upon pass protection and Burrow being comfortable in the pocket.  
 

Ravens and Chiefs played physical outside and got pressure… result = low scoring games. 
 

Bills couldn’t get pressure and played off coverage in the elements.  The exact opposite of what Ravens/Chiefs did to them. 
 

Chiefs offense executes well year round because they have an ELITE short passing game, and a top tier OL. 
 

Hopefully we fixed our OL this off-season because it all starts there.  Run game, pass game, whatever … if your OL protects the QB at a high level, your offense can perform in any weather. 
 

Edited May 4, 2023 by SCBills

[Plano]

LeT's CaLl HiM nEcK bReAkEr - everyone 

[Buffalo716]

On 5/2/2023 at 2:00 PM, BillsVet said:

 

Their approach to running backs is to keep adding more and then either use them sparingly or not use much at all.  Hines had 11 touches in 9 games (EDIT: from scrimmage) and Cook 111 (Edit: touches) all year as a RD2 pick.  At some point, the investment has to align with use or it's a waste.         

 

Then, their OL is a grab bag.  Some are power types like Bates, Torrance, and Brown who look good as run blockers but aren't as adept in pass pro.  But they also feature a presumed starting LG in McGovern and C in Morse who are known more for their pass blocking.      

 

That ain't an aligned offense...which is why I think they're trying to feature different looks, but NFL offenses can't be both a power run team AND a downfield passing one.  Hard to scheme an offense that is all over the map with personnel.  Do one thing with superior talent and some audacity...no need to get cute.  

 

21 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

It’s rare, but I disagree with you on your take here. 
Every year, more and more teams are transferring their O scheme to opponent specific designs. 4D chess as it were. The days offenses being 1 dimensional ala “power run team ‘OR’ downfield passing one” are long gone. Ergo, having OL & RBs with diversified skill sets is a key ingredient to being capable of changing your stripes. Add in a cold weather team with a great passer and becomes essential to maintaining a winning team.

You can also be a vertical power/zone team nowadays 

 

You can air it out vertically while maintaining an identity as a power run or zone team 

 

Or even be a multiple front vertical scheme

[Richard Noggin]

11 hours ago, BillsVet said:

 

Most people don't realize that Buffalo has in some ways run the ball better each year since 2020.  From averaging 4.2 yards per carry in 2020 to 4.8 in 2021 to 5.2 in 2022.  Attempts and the ratio of run to pass is similar as well.  I used averages given that Buffalo had 16 and 30 teams had 17.  

 

At the same time, the passing game has declined since 2020: from 3rd in passing yards, 4th in yards/attempt, and 3rd in yards/game, with a similar number of attempts each year to 8th, 7th, and 7th for the same categories respectively in 2022.  

 

This is high level and I'm not solely citing the run game for why the passing game regressed.  Lots of other factors involved.  

 

Looking at KC and CIN neither are as adept in the ground game and rank well down of Buffalo Why?  Because the passing game makes up for a less than average running game.  You don't need offensive balance to be a high-performing offense anymore.  Doesn't mean to completely ignore the run game either, but putting big resources into the run game isn't as value added as people want to believe.     

 

 

The bolded doesn't add up. You're saying that sliding in passing rankings from 3.33 to 7.33, while also improving in rushing ypc from 4.2 to 5.2 over the same span somehow represents "high level" regression? Still solidly top-10 passing offense (during a period of passing proliferation leaguewide) and much improved (at least according to the metrics provided) rushing offense...I'm okay with that.

 

Sure, starting with the second half of the Green Bay game, things didn't seem to come easy offensively. Didn't really feel like a 13-win season most of the time. I even came REALLY close to not renewing my season tickets (also because I work the other 6 days of the week). But they've earned another year to recalibrate and get back after it, at least from me. I try not to let my own arrogance and hubris interfere with enjoying the games. Sure I think I can see simple solutions, but then again I also know there are nuances and complexities and variables that are beyond my scope. Gotta be self aware enough to admit it. And try to have some actual FUN.

[John from Riverside]

On 5/2/2023 at 7:54 PM, BillsVet said:

 

Can you imagine McD and Beane getting up in front of the assembled leadership last Thursday night at OBD reminding everyone how they were 37-12 since 2020 and that's doggone good enough?  Probably wouldn't do much espirit de corps.  

 

It's not illegal to be satisfied with losing in the divisional round...but it's also shooting real low when the objective is there to be reached. 

 

 

I doubt very seriously that any conversation would go the way that you’re insinuating. It would be more like the team is in a certain place and what do we need to do in order to get it the rest of the way there
 

I will tell you that there are no conversations going on about firing McDermott or the general manager

8 hours ago, SCBills said:

Bengals Playoff Offense was highly dependent upon pass protection and Burrow being comfortable in the pocket.  
 

Ravens and Chiefs played physical outside and got pressure… result = low scoring games. 
 

Bills couldn’t get pressure and played off coverage in the elements.  The exact opposite of what Ravens/Chiefs did to them. 
 

Chiefs offense executes well year round because they have an ELITE short passing game, and a top tier OL. 
 

Hopefully we fixed our OL this off-season because it all starts there.  Run game, pass game, whatever … if your OL protects the QB at a high level, your offense can perform in any weather. 
 

It just looks to me like the bills have made a concerted effort to find multiple ways to get the job done going into this next season
 

They are bigger on both sides of the line brought in bigger backs the slot receiver is a Monster Poona Ford is a fire hydrant. Oh Cyrus Torrance is a Godzilla.

 

The bills are addressing it