What does our O-Line look like now?

[Matt_In_NH]

It seems clear who the top 6 are....within those, C, RG, RT can be swapped around some.   I include Morse because there is some (probably minute) chance the Bills could move on from him to gain the 6 million ish in cap space.  The Bills are in the best position to gauge the risk of Morse's concussions.  In that scenario Bates plays C, Torrence RG and Brown RT.   While we are all excited about the prospects of Torrence, you always have to have a wait and see approach when it comes to rookies.....Codie Ford had a lot of excitement to lock down the RT position that never happened.

[Saxum]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:48 AM, Ayjent said:

I dont see Bates being traded. Too much uncertainty with Torrence as a rookie and Morse with concussions.  His versatility to fill positions on the line makes him far too valuable as a solid contingency plan for any issues on the line.  

 

Bills matched offer from Bears to keep Bates.  I do not think they will trade him so soon.

[SoCal Deek]

I’m going to be royally pissed if Torrence isn’t starting this year. The kid is massive and played against the highest level of competition in college. If they can’t get him in the lineup as a rookie at OG for heaven’s sake there’s something seriously wrong with the player development staff at OBD. 

[Manther]

On 5/7/2023 at 3:52 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

McGovern is a terrible LG.

Why do you say that?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, Manther said:

Why do you say that?

I should’ve worded it better. Terrible starting LG. Or below average starting LG. Whatever sounds better.

 

He’s kind of the opposite of Saffold in a way. Saffold was a better run blocker than pass blocker. McGovern is a better pass blocker than run blocker. But he’s a reserve level OG IMO. Not someone you sign and consider him a locked in starter. 
 

He is an upgrade over Saffold IMO, but I don’t view him as a better player than Bates. If someone does think he’s better than Bates I would love to be convinced. Please enlighten me. I’m seeing a lot of dislikes to my opinion on McGovern and Bates but no responses. 

18 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m going to be royally pissed if Torrence isn’t starting this year. The kid is massive and played against the highest level of competition in college. If they can’t get him in the lineup as a rookie at OG for heaven’s sake there’s something seriously wrong with the player development staff at OBD. 

I mean Ford started immediately and we immediately wanted him out. I feel very confident he’ll win the job but no reason to just hand it to him. 

[SoCal Deek]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

 

I mean Ford started immediately and we immediately wanted him out. I feel very confident he’ll win the job but no reason to just hand it to him. 

You’ll notice that I didn’t say they should just ‘hand it to him’. My comment is about the talent evaluation staff at OBD. Seems to me they should be able to spot a semi-decent OG when they see one. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

You’ll notice that I didn’t say they should just ‘hand it to him’. My comment is about the talent evaluation staff at OBD. Seems to me they should be able to spot a semi-decent OG when they see one. 

I’m not sure who makes this decision. There’s been multiple blunders on the interior OL over the last few years with different OC’s and OL coaches.

[Dr. Who]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should’ve worded it better. Terrible starting LG. Or below average starting LG. Whatever sounds better.

 

He’s kind of the opposite of Saffold in a way. Saffold was a better run blocker than pass blocker. McGovern is a better pass blocker than run blocker. But he’s a reserve level OG IMO. Not someone you sign and consider him a locked in starter. 
 

He is an upgrade over Saffold IMO, but I don’t view him as a better player than Bates. If someone does think he’s better than Bates I would love to be convinced. Please enlighten me. I’m seeing a lot of dislikes to my opinion on McGovern and Bates but no responses. 

I mean Ford started immediately and we immediately wanted him out. I feel very confident he’ll win the job but no reason to just hand it to him. 

They certainly spent money on McGovern as if they have him evaluated a lot higher than you have. If he is the player you think, why sign him at all when you already have Bates on the team? I don't claim to be an expert, certainly not with regards to olinemen who one typically notices more often than not when they fail which has to be a miserable aspect of the position. I normally rely on @MrEpsYtown and @GunnerBill for establishing a baseline for my own amateur judgments. My guess has been that McGovern is a capable starter type by their lights with better pass protection capacity than Saffold which is not a hard bar to beat. I'm willing to wait and see if they are right.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

They certainly spent money on McGovern as if they have him evaluated a lot higher than you have. If he is the player you think, why sign him at all when you already have Bates on the team? I don't claim to be an expert, certainly not with regards to olinemen who one typically notices more often than not when they fail which has to be a miserable aspect of the position. I normally rely on @MrEpsYtown and @GunnerBill for establishing a baseline for my own amateur judgments. My guess has been that McGovern is a capable starter type by their lights with better pass protection capacity than Saffold which is not a hard bar to beat. I'm willing to wait and see if they are right.  

He can start. There’s a lot of bad starting OL in the NFL. He’s just not someone you sign and consider the position fixed.

 

He’s a lot like Bates. He can play RG, C, and LG. I’m sure the Bills like that versatility. I think the signing was as much for now as it was for the future. The future could be now if the cut Morse post June 1st and save $6 million.

 

I think the Bills view McGovern, Bates, and Torrence as their future IOL. 
 

 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He can start. There’s a lot of bad starting OL in the NFL. He’s just not someone you sign and consider the position fixed.

 

He’s a lot like Bates. He can play RG, C, and LG. I’m sure the Bills like that versatility. I think the signing was as much for now as it was for the future. The future could be now if the cut Morse post June 1st and save $6 million.

 

I think the Bills view McGovern, Bates, and Torrence as their future IOL. 
 

 

I personally hope Morse has a few years left in him, but that's a plausible take.

[MJS]

Doyle could start on the PUP list.

[SCBills]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should’ve worded it better. Terrible starting LG. Or below average starting LG. Whatever sounds better.

 

He’s kind of the opposite of Saffold in a way. Saffold was a better run blocker than pass blocker. McGovern is a better pass blocker than run blocker. But he’s a reserve level OG IMO. Not someone you sign and consider him a locked in starter. 
 

He is an upgrade over Saffold IMO, but I don’t view him as a better player than Bates. If someone does think he’s better than Bates I would love to be convinced. Please enlighten me. I’m seeing a lot of dislikes to my opinion on McGovern and Bates but no responses. 

I mean Ford started immediately and we immediately wanted him out. I feel very confident he’ll win the job but no reason to just hand it to him. 

 

From everything I've heard about McGovern, he's an average/above-average pass blocker and a below average run blocker. 

 

However, it seems he was never really a fit for the Cowboys run scheme, so the hope is he still has some upward trajectory as a young(ish) player, and will improve in a different scheme. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

From everything I've heard about McGovern, he's an average/above-average pass blocker and a below average run blocker. 

 

However, it seems he was never really a fit for the Cowboys run scheme, so the hope is he still has some upward trajectory as a young(ish) player, and will improve in a different scheme. 

Definitely has upside. I really like Bates’ game though. So when I see him on the bench I just don’t get it. He was very good the 2nd half of last year. Sitting for McGovern, at least right now, doesn’t make sense. If McGovern wins a competition then OK.

Edited May 8, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[PrimeTime101]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Definitely has upside. I really like Bates’ game though. So when I see him on the bench I just don’t get it. He was very good the 2nd half of last year. Sitting for McGovern, at least right now, doesn’t make sense. If McGovern wins a competition then OK.

So in 2022 McGovern played all his snaps at center, In fact, He played center going all the way back to 2019 season. In 2018, most of his snaps were RG. 2017 he played a little RG but throughout the last 3+ years, McGovern's best football was at Center.  So many people automatically say Bates is the auto replacement at center and I would argue that McGovern's natural position is Center based on the last 4 years even though they have him as guard. Makes you wonder, Who will be the #1 backup for Center next year? 

 

Bates and McGovern do hang their hats in the 60's with PFF. Bates on the low end and McGovern on the high end. so based on pff numbers and stats. McGovern is the better player. 

 

BUT!

 

To the Bolded, I do also Like Bates play... Like McGovern, Bates is not really good at one thing and bad at another. they both have evened out numbers pass and rush blocking.  Much of this is going to depend on how good Cyrus is out of the gate.

 

to the second Bolded? It is going to be one hell of a fun competition to watch and may I say... we needed stuff competition at guard positions for a long time now.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

13 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

So in 2022 McGovern played all his snaps at center, In fact, He played center going all the way back to 2019 season. In 2018, most of his snaps were RG. 2017 he played a little RG but throughout the last 3+ years, McGovern's best football was at Center.  So many people automatically say Bates is the auto replacement at center and I would argue that McGovern's natural position is Center based on the last 4 years even though they have him as guard. Makes you wonder, Who will be the #1 backup for Center next year? 

 

Bates and McGovern do hang their hats in the 60's with PFF. Bates on the low end and McGovern on the high end. so based on pff numbers and stats. McGovern is the better player. 

 

BUT!

 

To the Bolded, I do also Like Bates play... Like McGovern, Bates is not really good at one thing and bad at another. they both have evened out numbers pass and rush blocking.  Much of this is going to depend on how good Cyrus is out of the gate.

 

to the second Bolded? It is going to be one hell of a fun competition to watch and may I say... we needed stuff competition at guard positions for a long time now.  

Can you post PFF on McGovern and Bates? Not the end all but I do appreciate their work. 

[pennstate10]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should’ve worded it better. Terrible starting LG. Or below average starting LG. Whatever sounds better.

 

He’s kind of the opposite of Saffold in a way. Saffold was a better run blocker than pass blocker. McGovern is a better pass blocker than run blocker. But he’s a reserve level OG IMO. Not someone you sign and consider him a locked in starter. 
 

He is an upgrade over Saffold IMO, but I don’t view him as a better player than Bates. If someone does think he’s better than Bates I would love to be convinced. Please enlighten me. I’m seeing a lot of dislikes to my opinion on McGovern and Bates but no responses. 

I mean Ford started immediately and we immediately wanted him out. I feel very confident he’ll win the job but no reason to just hand it to him. 

As a long time PSU fan, I watched all of Bates and McGoverns games, and have watched Bates games with the Bills. 
 

In contrast to what’s been stated in this thread, Bates played guard his first couple years at PSU, and was excellent. They kicked him out to RT and then LT because they had no tackles. It was clear to many observers that Bates was a better guard than tackle. His feet and. Athleticism are good, but arms are too short. 
 

McG played guard and center at PSU. Back then, he was better in pass pro than run blocking. Of course, PSU was running this goofy zone read and RPO offense at the time where the strategy seemed to be to allow the DT to blow up the mesh points. 
 

My thinking is that Bills signed McG and Bates to be starting guards. But when Torrence became available, they modified that plan. Depending on how quickly Torrence develops, I see Bates at LG and Torrence at RG, with McG being first IOL backup. I think Bates is a better overall guard than McG, and that Bates is better at LG than RG. Not really sure why. Maybe having Dawkins next to him helps. 
 

Finally, it wouldn’t surprise me if Bills 5 yr plan is Bates, McG, Torrence from left to right. 
 

Finally, given the rate at which OL are injured, Bills would be nuts to trade away either of these 2 guys. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by pennstate10
Clarify

[PrimeTime101]

42 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Can you post PFF on McGovern and Bates? Not the end all but I do appreciate their work. 

Sure I will keep it simple

 

Bates

OVERALL 61.8

RB 59.0

PB 61.5

 

McGovern

OVERALL 69.6

RB 69.7

PB 69.5

 

please keep in mind.. again.. last 3-4 years McGovern has lived at the center position.

 

soooooooooo

 

Just for giggles and.. this is going to shock you... "Brace Yourself"

 

Morse 2022

OVERALL 61.4

RB 57.3

PB 67.1

 

Morse 2021

OVERALL 63.4

RB 60

PB 69.9

 

Morse 2020

OVERALL 65.8

RB 63.8

PB 71.6

 

Notice Morse Yearly decline?

 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by PrimeTime101

[Buffalo_Stampede]

17 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Sure I will keep it simple

 

Bates

OVERALL 61.8

RB 59.0

PB 61.5

 

McGovern

OVERALL 69.6

RB 69.7

PB 69.5

 

please keep in mind.. again.. last 3-4 years McGovern has lived at the center position.

 

soooooooooo

 

Just for giggles and.. this is going to shock you... "Brace Yourself"

 

Morse 2022

OVERALL 61.4

RB 57.3

PB 67.1

 

Morse 2021

OVERALL 63.4

RB 60

PB 69.9

 

Morse 2020

OVERALL 65.8

RB 63.8

PB 71.6

 

Notice Morse Yearly decline?

 

 

I think maybe the player to watch this summer if Torrence is a starter could be Morse.

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I think maybe the player to watch this summer if Torrence is a starter could be Morse.

Yea I mean, things can change quickly. Too many people on these boards have McGovern locked at Guard where I actually think at this point McGovern is a slightly better center... Note.. the most likely player to get wacked on the head on the line is Center. Maybe just MAYBE, Morse would be better suited at guard this year?  keep in mind... I think Morse still has center locked.. but early on players are checked out at many positions to see what they are best at! You just never know... 

 

Here is what i love... they are NOT messing around with the interior OL this year... Someone gets loose at the Tackle position, JA can roll out... Someone gets loose at Tackle and Guard? no where to go...  Cyrus Torrence is the question mark. IF he starts at Guard day one and he is as good as advertised? competition could very well slowly heat up at center. 

 

Just a fun conversation to have yes?  BTW.. I feel like I could do a 2 hour pod with you easy lol. Nice conversations we have  

[pennstate10]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Sure I will keep it simple

 

Bates

OVERALL 61.8

RB 59.0

PB 61.5

 

McGovern

OVERALL 69.6

RB 69.7

PB 69.5

 

please keep in mind.. again.. last 3-4 years McGovern has lived at the center position.

 

soooooooooo

 

Just for giggles and.. this is going to shock you... "Brace Yourself"

 

Morse 2022

OVERALL 61.4

RB 57.3

PB 67.1

 

Morse 2021

OVERALL 63.4

RB 60

PB 69.9

 

Morse 2020

OVERALL 65.8

RB 63.8

PB 71.6

 

Notice Morse Yearly decline?

 

 

Are you sure those are the numbers for Bills Connor McGovern?  There are two Connor McGoverns, one who played for Cowboys->Bills, the other played for Broncos->Jets. 
 

PFF lists just one Connor McGovern at center. The Jets player. They list the Bills Connor McGovern at guard.