No excuses for Ken Dorsey this year

[I'm Spartacus]

Dorsey's playcalling might make Bass look even better! 🙂

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

This reminds me, we need a nickname for Dorsey. 

Dorkey ?

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

No excuses for Ken Dorsey this year

 

No excuses for Beane or McD this year either.  

If this Draft ends up producing no more than Beane's last four and if McD can't get us past the Divisional Round while playing competitively against whomever's in the AFC CG then the tough questions there need to be addressed as well.  

 

 

[oldmanfan]

Dorsey needs to be the man this season.

[Logic]

50 minutes ago, Dablitzkrieg said:

Go outside for a bit.  It is not even summer, barely spring.  You may have a heart attack by then with your anxiety 

I'm at work. For as bad a use of my time as "worrying about the Bills' offensive coordinator" would seem to be, it still beats Excel Spreadsheets and Sales Journal Recon Charts.

Once I'm outside on a patio with a beer after my shift, though, I'll be sure to pour one out for ya!

 

[MPL]

I'll say the difficult thing — less excuses for Allen this year, too. He can still be better at pre-snap reads, getting the ball out quicker to his hots, and not locking onto one receiver for too long. He was up and down in these areas last year. If he can be more consistent in these areas, the ball will come out quicker and the oline will suddenly look a lot better. 

Then again, if Spencer Brown keeps whiffing on edge rushers all hope is lost. 

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, stevestojan said:

I think some of us might be underestimating the impact Damien Harris will have immediately. That was our biggest addition, IMO. 

 

I definitely like the signing a lot, I do just have some durability concerns with him as he has dealt with several injuries.  

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, MPL said:

I'll say the difficult thing — less excuses for Allen this year, too. He can still be better at pre-snap reads, getting the ball out quicker to his hots, and not locking onto one receiver for too long. He was up and down in these areas last year. If he can be more consistent in these areas, the ball will come out quicker and the oline will suddenly look a lot better. 

Then again, if Spencer Brown keeps whiffing on edge rushers all hope is lost. 

 

I am willing to give Josh something of a pass on last year for the injury but you are right he was too inconsistent. And while I know any critcism of him can be met with blowback Josh would 100% agree with me.  He knows he can play better and knows he has to. I slightly wonder if not going into the year as the QB of the Superbowl favourite and as the MVP betting favourite might actually help. Let him play more free.

[hondo in seattle]

1 hour ago, Bills Bud said:

I still think our weapons are not top 10 in the league. Diggs is the only sure fire reliable target

 

True-ish.  But our pass catchers also include Gabe, Shakir, Kincaid, Sherfield, Harty, Cook, Hines...   Overall, it's a pretty good group with some speed, quickness, size, and route prowess.  Dorsey has plenty to work with.  

[msw2112]

Let's hope the two guards we signed (and/or any OL we draft tonight or tomorrow) will be upgrades and that Brown returns to form after a healthy offseason.  While I agree that Dorsey's offense had its struggles last season, the line play was pretty bad in stretches.  If the line play improves, the QB will have more time to make reads and find the open receiver, the WRs and TEs will have more time to get open, and the RBs will have holes to run through.  The offense will improve substantailly.

[MPL]

7 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

19 minutes ago, MPL said:

I'll say the difficult thing — less excuses for Allen this year, too. He can still be better at pre-snap reads, getting the ball out quicker to his hots, and not locking onto one receiver for too long. He was up and down in these areas last year. If he can be more consistent in these areas, the ball will come out quicker and the oline will suddenly look a lot better. 

Then again, if Spencer Brown keeps whiffing on edge rushers all hope is lost. 

 

I am willing to give Josh something of a pass on last year for the injury but you are right he was too inconsistent. And while I know any critcism of him can be met with blowback Josh would 100% agree with me.  He knows he can play better and knows he has to. I slightly wonder if not going into the year as the QB of the Superbowl favourite and as the MVP betting favourite might actually help. Let him play more free.

I agree. I have a "we don't speak poorly about Josh Allen" rule in my house, but he should share some of the burden when things aren't working. Josh certainly doesn't have a problem shouldering the blame, but as fans, we're quick to deflect it toward anyone else. 

[Rc2catch]

Knox was open quite a bit. Doesn’t matter if he’s not targeted. Same goes for Kincaid or shakir or cook or whoever is running shorter routes within 15 yards of the line that josh doesn’t even look at. Some of those guys are winning their matchups but josh is 30 yards downfield hunting the big play. I have to believe as they go over footage Josh is seeing all these easy plays he gave away looking for the big ones. 

[loyal2dagame]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

Like many here, I like Dalton Kincaid the player quite a bit.

The only hesitance I have in drafting him is that I was constantly yelling at my screen last year because Dorsey wasn't effectively scheming the athletic, mismatch tight end we ALREADY have on our roster and pay big money to. I'm dubious that a guy who couldn't find a way to effectively use one tight end will suddenly know how to effectively use two. For a first round tight end who figures to be second on the depth chart to be a worthwhile use of draft capital, he needs to actually be utilized with effectiveness and frequency.

Moreover, I was and am concerned about what I perceive to be Dorsey's failure to use the offensive weapons on the Bills roster in the way that best suits their traits. We drafted James Cook and traded for Nyheim Hines largely because both are receiving threats and mismatches against linebackers -- then completely failed to deploy them in that fashion. Gabe Davis did a lot of damage his first two years from the slot, matching up against small nickel corners, safeties, and linebackers. Dorsey rarely used him as such last year. As already mentioned, Dawson Knox is an athletic mismatch in the passing game in his own right, Dorsey failed to use him as much more than a last resort outlet receiver. Now add Kincaid to the pile of guys that require a specific type of usage to be most effective.

Going into 2023, with a formidable duo of tight ends, two speedy receiving backs, a top five WR, a big-bodied WR with excellent career touchdown production, and even new, speedy additions in Harty and Sherfield -- not to mention whoever the Bills add throughout the rest of draft weekend -- there will no longer be any excuses or training wheels for Ken Dorsey, in my opinion. "Not enough weapons" will no longer be a viable excuse.

If Dorsey can't scheme up a consistently effective offense that consistently makes use of guys like Cook, Knox, and Kincaid, he should be shown the door at the end of the year, in my opinion. There will be no shortage of brilliant offensive minds champing at the bit to work with Josh Allen and co if Dorsey can't cut it. 

Wtf?

The Bills offense last year with 1 less game played was almost statistically the same as Daboll's from 2 seasons ago. 

Dorsey did fine as a first time NFL OC. There are about 28 other teams that would have loved to have had the statistical season and regular season record the Bills had.  

It's getting old saying 13-3, 3 plays and 8 points away from being perfect. With all the horrible things that occurred in WNY and during the season.   

Expectations are not realistic here anymore.

Dorsey's offensive scheme is ok. 

This team is fine.  

I thought it was bad here during the drought.  This is on a whole other level.

Mindbottling. That's how silly these discussions are. 

[dorquemada]

46 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Dorkey ?

Solid.

 

 

[BillsFanSD]

1 hour ago, Don Otreply said:

Except the starting QB injured his elbow on his throwing arm, a player temporarily died on the field of play, one of our top shelf safeties was out with a neck injury, but ya, no excuses…, 

None of this can explain why Dorsey was unable to scheme Diggs open, why he couldn't use Cook or Hines in the passing game, why Shakir couldn't see the field, etc.  

 

It's okay.  Dorsey was an inexperienced OC going through his first NFL season as a play-caller.  It's not surprising that he might experience a bit of a learning curve.  I'm a little disappointed at his performance last year, but I'm not in the building, I don't work with him each day, I can't even pretend to evaluate his football IQ, and I'll defer to our FO.  If they were okay with bringing him back for Year #2, then so am I.  But I'm not going to extend any benefit of the doubt beyond that.  We simply cannot have our franchise QB's prime years wasted on an OC who doesn't know how to use the weapons he's given.  Dorsey should absolutely be coaching for his job this year, and every year from now on. 

 

It's nothing against Dorsey personally.  It's just that there are probably at least 30 guys who are capable of running this offense with the personnel we've assembled, and each of them would consider it the professional opportunity of a lifetime.  I'm fine with giving Dorsey a chance, but he should rightly be on a short leash.  If he can't do it this year, let's bring in somebody who can.

Edited April 28, 2023 by BillsFanSD

[BillsVet]

Dorsey's on the hot seat...but McDermott's isn't exactly cold either.  

 

Probably not a good indicator if Dorsey has a bad season because McD hired him with likely input from others.  And, having just fired Frazier, he can't afford to have Dorsey struggle in year 2.

 

All of that is in the future, but glad to see that they're focused on improving the offense and thus supporting Josh.

[Logic]

16 minutes ago, loyal2dagame said:

Wtf?

The Bills offense last year with 1 less game played was almost statistically the same as Daboll's from 2 seasons ago. 

Dorsey did fine as a first time NFL OC. There are about 28 other teams that would have loved to have had the statistical season and regular season record the Bills had.  

It's getting old saying 13-3, 3 plays and 8 points away from being perfect. With all the horrible things that occurred in WNY and during the season.   

Expectations are not realistic here anymore.

Dorsey's offensive scheme is ok. 

This team is fine.  

I thought it was bad here during the drought.  This is on a whole other level.

Mindbottling. That's how silly these discussions are. 

Well, I'm sorry that you're feeling Mindbottled, but...

While yes, statistically, Ken Dorsey's offense showed some encouraging signs in year one...I'm not sure how ANYONE could watch the stagnancy that crept into the Bills offense as the year progressed and not be at least a little bit concerned. 

As often happens when a new OC comes in, opposing defenses didn't quite know what to expect at first, and the Bills offense performed well. From about the Vikings game onward, defenses began to adjust, and Dorsey lacked a counter-punch. There were long stretches where the Bills were not able to manufacture many points. It cost them games. Did you watch the 10 point output against the Bengals in the playoffs? Were you happy with Ken Dorsey and the Bills offense that day? Our pass-catching RBs, one of whom we drafted high and the other whom we traded for? 1 catch for 4 yards on the day between them. Stefon Diggs? 4 catches for 35 yards. Gabe Davis? 2 catches for 34 yards. Our rushing game outside of Josh Allen? 38 yards.

Go look at the season long statistics for Nyheim Hines, or the amount of targets that he and Cook had all year combined. Go look at Dawson Knox's yards per reception on the year, compared to the rest of his career. Go look at Gabe Davis' deployment from the slot vs out wide compared to previous years. Or, again, to put it simply, go watch the Bengals game again.

Dorsey's first year was not catastrophic. It wasn't even BAD. There were positive signs! But it DID demonstrate, at times, a concerning lack of creativity in personnel deployment and adaptability and counter punches to what opposing defenses were doing. The Bills offense of the last 9 weeks or so and the playoffs was not the same as the one we saw to start the year. And yes, Allen's elbow probably had something to do with it, as did other injuries, but...so did Dorsey's lack of imagination. He DOES need to improve in year two. To say that everything he's doing is just fine and dandy and that the Bills offense couldn't and shouldn't have been better down the stretch is, in my opinion, not entirely correct.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Logic

[Matt_In_NH]

Same thing said about daboll every year he was here.  

[Don Otreply]

54 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

None of this can explain why Dorsey was unable to scheme Diggs open, why he couldn't use Cook or Hines in the passing game, why Shakir couldn't see the field, etc.  

 

It's okay.  Dorsey was an inexperienced OC going through his first NFL season as a play-caller.  It's not surprising that he might experience a bit of a learning curve.  I'm a little disappointed at his performance last year, but I'm not in the building, I don't work with him each day, I can't even pretend to evaluate his football IQ, and I'll defer to our FO.  If they were okay with bringing him back for Year #2, then so am I.  But I'm not going to extend any benefit of the doubt beyond that.  We simply cannot have our franchise QB's prime years wasted on an OC who doesn't know how to use the weapons he's given.  Dorsey should absolutely be coaching for his job this year, and every year from now on. 

 

It's nothing against Dorsey personally.  It's just that there are probably at least 30 guys who are capable of running this offense with the personnel we've assembled, and each of them would consider it the professional opportunity of a lifetime.  I'm fine with giving Dorsey a chance, but he should rightly be on a short leash.  If he can't do it this year, let's bring in somebody who can.

Lots of factors go into. Why things happen the way they did, Gabe seemingly is nursing an ankle injury most years, LIL Dirty didn’t step up, the preferred starting slot receiver broke his ankle, and Shakir in his rookie season, the O-line was a mess, I could go on…,  so ya, lots of unforeseen things get in the way of success, Did KD have some leaning to do? Yup, sure did, so now we have a OC with live fire experience under his belt, and has likely had a sit down with his bosses about personnel usage etc etc,  I think you get where I’m going with this so…, 

[Malazan]

3 hours ago, Logic said:

Like many here, I like Dalton Kincaid the player quite a bit.

The only hesitance I have in drafting him is that I was constantly yelling at my screen last year because Dorsey wasn't effectively scheming the athletic, mismatch tight end we ALREADY have on our roster and pay big money to. I'm dubious that a guy who couldn't find a way to effectively use one tight end will suddenly know how to effectively use two. For a first round tight end who figures to be second on the depth chart to be a worthwhile use of draft capital, he needs to actually be utilized with effectiveness and frequency.

Moreover, I was and am concerned about what I perceive to be Dorsey's failure to use the offensive weapons on the Bills roster in the way that best suits their traits. We drafted James Cook and traded for Nyheim Hines largely because both are receiving threats and mismatches against linebackers -- then completely failed to deploy them in that fashion. Gabe Davis did a lot of damage his first two years from the slot, matching up against small nickel corners, safeties, and linebackers. Dorsey rarely used him as such last year. As already mentioned, Dawson Knox is an athletic mismatch in the passing game in his own right, Dorsey failed to use him as much more than a last resort outlet receiver. Now add Kincaid to the pile of guys that require a specific type of usage to be most effective.

Going into 2023, with a formidable duo of tight ends, two speedy receiving backs, a top five WR, a big-bodied WR with excellent career touchdown production, and even new, speedy additions in Harty and Sherfield -- not to mention whoever the Bills add throughout the rest of draft weekend -- there will no longer be any excuses or training wheels for Ken Dorsey, in my opinion. "Not enough weapons" will no longer be a viable excuse.

If Dorsey can't scheme up a consistently effective offense that consistently makes use of guys like Cook, Knox, and Kincaid, he should be shown the door at the end of the year, in my opinion. There will be no shortage of brilliant offensive minds champing at the bit to work with Josh Allen and co if Dorsey can't cut it. 

 

What were the excuses before the Kincaid  pick that you thought would have been alright?