2023 offense has potential to be best in Bills history

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

8 hours ago, aristocrat said:

Harris best season is better than singletarys best season. 

 

I'd say that is debatable. 

 

They are different backs. Used in different ways. 

 

Harris has a far lower fumbling rate than Singletary. That is probably the single biggest upgrade I see. Harris will probably vulture TD's from Allen and Cook in the red zone as well. 

 

Singletary was a back that was asked to do it all for the Bills. I would not expect the Bills will ask Harris to do the same. Cook will be the lead back trying to replace Devin and Harris will fill the role that Moss was supposed to fill. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

5 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

 

Physically he does not seem like that kind of back, one who could carry the ball 15-25 times a game, week after week. 

 

The Bills offense under both Daboll and Dorsey does not ask a single RB to carry the ball 15-25 times per game. Devin was a our leading back the last two years and he only had two games over a 33 game span in the regular season where he ran the ball more than 20 times (22 and 23 carries). He had 15 or more rushed only 6 times in that same span. He averaged 11 carries per game.

 

I agree Cook might not hold up to a consistent 18 rushes per game but the Bills will likely only call on a back to average 12 or 13 rushes a game at most. And nowhere near 20+ on average. 

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The Bills were down 14 - 0 after the first 2 Bengal possessions.  Their defense could not have had a worse start in a HOME playoff game.

 

Consider this series of possessions from early in the 2nd quarter to late in the 3rd quarter:

 

*  Bills go 75 yards in 15 plays for a TD taking 7:41, score = 7 - 14

*  Bengals go 65 yards in 14 plays for a FG taking 5:36, score = 7 - 17

*  With only 1:49 left in the half Bills go 39 yards in 7 plays taking 1:09, punt

*  Bengals go 44 yards in 6 plays taking 0:40.  Half

*  To start the 3rd quarter Bills go 65 yards in 14 plays for a FG taking 7:18, score = 10 - 17

*  Bengals go 75 yards in 12 plays for a TD taking 6:25, score = 10 - 24

*  With only 1:17 left in the 3rd quarter Bills start infamous drive that ends on 3rd & 2 with Davis dropping what would have been a 50 yard completion.

 

Sorry, but the Bengals playoff game was lost for two primarily defensive reasons:

 

1) the D didn't show up at the start of the game. 

 

2)And then when the offense managed to claw their way back into the game with two LONG, time consuming scoring drives the D failed to make a stop at two critical points in the game - after the Bills cut the lead to 14 - 7 & 17 -10.

 

The D's shortcomings forced the Bills to rely more on the pass then they would have liked.  The poor O line play made it harder for the Bills to execute any offensive scheme consistently.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All true. However, the Bills got throttled in every facet of the game. Offensively, defensely, special teams, and coaching. It was a totally break down from top to bottom. 

 

Yet, so many of us fans have short memories and a optimistic outlook. So optimistic that posters are thinking this is the best Buffalo offense ever. 

 

Folks, this offense scored 10 points vs an average Bengal defense in a home playoff game. Sure it's only one game but you just can't simply dismiss it either. 

 

The offensive pick ups, acquisitions, and drafts look to be promising. I think the oline and WR core has been upgraded. However, by no means do I see an elite Oline, WR core, RB core, and offensive coordinator. 

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

17 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

All true. However, the Bills got throttled in every facet of the game. Offensively, defensely, special teams, and coaching. It was a totally break down from top to bottom. 

 

Yet, so many of us fans have short memories and a optimistic outlook. So optimistic that posters are thinking this is the best Buffalo offense ever. 

 

Folks, this offense scored 10 points vs an average Bengal defense in a home playoff game. Sure it's only one game but you just can't simply dismiss it either. 

 

The offensive pick ups, acquisitions, and drafts look to be promising. I think the oline and WR core has been upgraded. However, by no means do I see an elite Oline, WR core, RB core, and offensive coordinator. 

 

 

You seem to suffer from both recency bias AND historical amnesia when it comes to the Bills offense:

 

The recency bias is your belief that what happened in the playoff game against the Bengals was a broader indicator of Buffalo's offensive "struggles" in 2022.

 

At the same time you fail to remember the 1991 season when the Bills had one of if not the most potent offenses in team history.  With MVP/OPOY Thurman Thomas running the ball and future HOF players Jim Kelly, Andre Reed and James Loften on hand this was one explosive offense.  Yet in the 1991 AFC Championship game that Bills offense could only muster THREE POINTS, AT HOME and on a perfect January weather day. 

 

Imagine how history would have changed had the Bills 1991 defense allowed Denver to score TD's on their first two possessions in that game?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You seem to suffer from both recency bias AND historical amnesia when it comes to the Bills offense:

 

The recency bias is your belief that what happened in the playoff game against the Bengals was a broader indicator of Buffalo's offensive "struggles" in 2022.

 

At the same time you fail to remember the 1991 season when the Bills had one of if not the most potent offenses in team history.  With MVP/OPOY Thurman Thomas running the ball and future HOF players Jim Kelly, Andre Reed and James Loften on hand this was one explosive offense.  Yet in the 1991 AFC Championship game that Bills offense could only muster THREE POINTS, AT HOME and on a perfect January weather day. 

 

Imagine how history would have changed had the Bills 1991 defense allowed Denver to score TD's on their first two possessions in that game?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on now! Are you serious with this post? Seems like desperation at best and grasping at straws. Imho, it's pretty disingenuous.

 

The point is this current offense shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as that 90s offense. That offense was phenomenal! The Kgun and no huddle offense was the talk of the NFL for years. 

 

This current offense has a lot to prove. There are lots of question marks. No need to rehash them. 

 

This thread is pretty ridiculous. 

 

 

 

 

[eball]

The Bills’ offenses of the past three seasons (‘20-‘22) rival the 90s Bills; I don’t even know how anyone can say otherwise.  No team has more blowout wins over the past three years than Buffalo, and that isn’t just because of the defense.

 

Those 90s Bills, by the way, blew it big time on offense in the biggest games of the season.

 

[Nihilarian]

7 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Come on now! Are you serious with this post? Seems like desperation at best and grasping at straws. Imho, it's pretty disingenuous.

 

The point is this current offense shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as that 90s offense. That offense was phenomenal! The Kgun and no huddle offense was the talk of the NFL for years. 

 

This current offense has a lot to prove. There are lots of question marks. No need to rehash them. 

 

This thread is pretty ridiculous.

Those late 80's early 90's Buffalo Bills teams were very balanced and as a matter of fact, they actually ran the ball more than they threw some of those first great seasons. They might have nicknamed that offense the "K gun" after TE Keith McKeller. Although actually, it was more of a 'hurry up" offense that kept defenses off balance so badly that they simply couldn't keep up. It also restricted the defensive substitutions which meant that defenses needed to keep the same players on the field for all three downs. 

 

 

As for that 1992 AFC Championship game against the Denver Broncos, on January 12th, 1992. That was a game for the ages in a defensive struggle. Jim Kelly went 13 of 25 for 117 yards, 2 INT. Thomas went 25 attempts for 72 yards. Near the end of the game, the Buffalo offensive line was so badly banged up / injured that TE Pete Metzelaars came in to play tackle. I feel that the O-line injuries might have been a big reason for the poor showing in that year's SB. 

Anyway, that 1991 Denver defense was #3 in points allowed, and #5 in yards allowed.  The Broncos went 12-4 that season 

 

BTW, that perfect January day the temperature was 33 degrees with a wind chill of 25 degrees. Still, Buffalo won that AFC Championship playoff game 10-7.

 

 

P.S. It would be nice to see the current Buffalo Bills become as balanced as those 90's SB years were.  Currently, the Bills depend on one offensive player far, far too much, and live and die with that magical unicorn.

 

This reminds me of those 80s years in Denver with the great QB John Elway...3 SB losses.  Denver didn't win an SB with Elway until RB Terrell Davis. 

[Nihilarian]

47 minutes ago, eball said:

The Bills’ offenses of the past three seasons (‘20-‘22) rival the 90s Bills; I don’t even know how anyone can say otherwise.  No team has more blowout wins over the past three years than Buffalo, and that isn’t just because of the defense.

 

Those 90s Bills, by the way, blew it big time on offense in the biggest games of the season.

Those 90's Buffalo Bills teams managed to go to four straight super bowls... which is something no other NFL team has ever managed to do.

 

Yes, they lost them all... 

 

As prolific as the current Buffalo offense has been these last few seasons 2020, 2021, 2022. Do I need to say it...

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Those late 80's early 90's Buffalo Bills teams were very balanced and as a matter of fact, they actually ran the ball more than they threw some of those first great seasons. They might have nicknamed that offense the "K gun" after TE Keith McKeller. Although actually, it was more of a 'hurry up" offense that kept defenses off balance so badly that they simply couldn't keep up. It also restricted the defensive substitutions which meant that defenses needed to keep the same players on the field for all three downs. 

 

 

As for that 1992 AFC Championship game against the Denver Broncos, on January 12th, 1992. That was a game for the ages in a defensive struggle. Jim Kelly went 13 of 25 for 117 yards, 2 INT. Thomas went 25 attempts for 72 yards. Near the end of the game, the Buffalo offensive line was so badly banged up / injured that TE Pete Metzelaars came in to play tackle. I feel that the O-line injuries might have been a big reason for the poor showing in that year's SB. 

Anyway, that 1991 Denver defense was #3 in points allowed, and #5 in yards allowed.  The Broncos went 12-4 that season 

 

BTW, that perfect January day the temperature was 33 degrees with a wind chill of 25 degrees. Still, Buffalo won that AFC Championship playoff game 10-7.

 

 

P.S. It would be nice to see the current Buffalo Bills become as balanced as those 90's SB years were.  Currently, the Bills depend on one offensive player far, far too much, and live and die with that magical unicorn.

 

This reminds me of those 80s years in Denver with the great QB John Elway...3 SB losses.  Denver didn't win an SB with Elway until RB Terrell Davis. 

Awesome post!

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, eball said:

The Bills’ offenses of the past three seasons (‘20-‘22) rival the 90s Bills; I don’t even know how anyone can say otherwise.  No team has more blowout wins over the past three years than Buffalo, and that isn’t just because of the defense.

 

Those 90s Bills, by the way, blew it big time on offense in the biggest games of the season.

 

Completely disagree. The 90s Bills oline was very good, the WR core was much balanced and better, and Hall of famer Thurman Thomas is a crystal clear example of why you are dead wrong. Not one RB on the Bills roster in 20' to 22' could hold his jock strap.

 

Stop with your non sense. 

[pennstate10]

16 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

2022 season:

 

Damien Harris:  106 carries, 462 yards, 4.4 ypc, and 3 TDs   and  97 receiving yards

 

Devin Singletary: 177 carries, 819 yards, 4.6 ypc, and  5 TDs   and 280 receiving yards

 

 

2019 to 2022

 

Damien Harris:  449 carries, 2094 yards, 4.7 ypc, and 20TDS  and 281 receiving yards

 

Devin Singletary:  672 carries,  3151 yards, 4,7 ypc, and 16 TDs   and 971 receiving yards

 

 

We need to look at the facts, the actual evidence when we analyze things, or we will make bad decisions as a team and as fans. You cannot make the case that Harris is a superior running back to Singletary, and "the best running back we have had in years".  In fact, the evidence indicates the Bills got rid of a far superior, and much more reliable, player in Singletary to bring in Harris. 

 

It seemed to be the same for some people last year, saying that Beasley was not that important, that McKenzie would be even better. But with no proof to back that up. I thought it was a crapshoot myself, a big risk for the Bills. Then McKenzie was not even close to being even a starting caliber slot receiver, yet alone the vital cog that Beasley was.  And not having a reliable slot receiver was, to me, a death blow to the Bills offense last year. A major strength simply eliminated.

 

I like Harris as a runner when he is healthy but Singletary has proven himself to be  a much better player. Yes, often not used nearly enough by his OCs, but that is not his fault.  30th in carries last year in the NFL, for example.

 

When did this current offense look its best, one of the best in "Bills' history", almost unstoppable? The last 6-7 games in 2021 when Singletary finally was used correctly, well, and established the Bills as one of the best running teams in the league, with a dynamic, multi-dimensional offense that helped to make Allen the best quarterback in the league.

 

So let's deal with the facts of the matter, or the Bills will be destined to be an also ran, again.  And let's hope they actually have a high level starting caliber running back on the team this year.  Unlike the last four years, we do not know that is the case.

 

And if not, how many will lament that the Bills could not scrounge up 3 million dollars a year to pay Singletary, a player Allen often said was vital to their success the last few years.

 

 

Hey Mrs S!

How’ve you been?

Long time no see!
 

[CincyBillsFan]

13 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Come on now! Are you serious with this post? Seems like desperation at best and grasping at straws. Imho, it's pretty disingenuous.

 

The point is this current offense shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as that 90s offense. That offense was phenomenal! The Kgun and no huddle offense was the talk of the NFL for years. 

 

This current offense has a lot to prove. There are lots of question marks. No need to rehash them. 

 

This thread is pretty ridiculous. 

 

 

 

 

The point I was making was that even the best offenses can have off days.  In the 1991 season playoffs the Bills had a historically great offense with 4 future HOF players.  Yet at home in good weather (for January) they managed just one FG.  You could no more draw conclusions from that performance as you can from the Bills face plant against the Bengals in the 2022 playoffs.

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

12 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

As for that 1992 AFC Championship game against the Denver Broncos, on January 12th, 1992. That was a game for the ages in a defensive struggle. Jim Kelly went 13 of 25 for 117 yards, 2 INT. Thomas went 25 attempts for 72 yards. Near the end of the game, the Buffalo offensive line was so badly banged up / injured that TE Pete Metzelaars came in to play tackle. I feel that the O-line injuries might have been a big reason for the poor showing in that year's SB. 

Anyway, that 1991 Denver defense was #3 in points allowed, and #5 in yards allowed.  The Broncos went 12-4 that season 

 

BTW, that perfect January day the temperature was 33 degrees with a wind chill of 25 degrees. Still, Buffalo won that AFC Championship playoff game 10-7.

 

Again, Kelly and company played very poorly on offense that day.  Injuries and a stout Denver defense contributed to this.  But was the Bronco's D in the 1991 season any better then the Bengals D from last season?

 

As for the weather, 33 degrees, dry and with light winds is as close to perfect January game conditions as you're going to get in Buffalo.

 

My question stands, in that game with the offense struggling mightily, had the Bills D allowed the Broncos to go down and score TD's on their first two possessions would Buffalo have won that game?

 

 

[Mister Defense]

16 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

The Bills offense under both Daboll and Dorsey does not ask a single RB to carry the ball 15-25 times per game. Devin was a our leading back the last two years and he only had two games over a 33 game span in the regular season where he ran the ball more than 20 times (22 and 23 carries). He had 15 or more rushed only 6 times in that same span. He averaged 11 carries per game.

 

I agree Cook might not hold up to a consistent 18 rushes per game but the Bills will likely only call on a back to average 12 or 13 rushes a game at most. And nowhere near 20+ on average. 

 

But for the Bills to become a championship team, and stop the decline we witnessed last year, a clear point I make is the Bills need to change that dynamic.  It is clear that they MUST become a better running team for the offense,  Allen and the team to reach their potential.

 

When the Bills ran the Bill more in the last games of the 2021 season, made it an integral part of their game, one that defenses had to be very concerned about, Josh Allen became almost unstoppable in the playoffs.  And adding 'almost' there is  probably understating how good he played.

 

The Bills cannot continue on the same path we saw last year and need to run the ball more and make the running backs a more integral part of their game. But you are right that they don't run the ball very much.  That must change this year, and I think the vast majority of fans who know this team well understand that.

 

Then the best teams in the league won't be licking their chops come playoff time, knowing they can just focus on Josh Allen, and don't even really need to consider their running game.

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Mister Defense

[newcam2012]

7 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

The point I was making was that even the best offenses can have off days.  In the 1991 season playoffs the Bills had a historically great offense with 4 future HOF players.  Yet at home in good weather (for January) they managed just one FG.  You could no more draw conclusions from that performance as you can from the Bills face plant against the Bengals in the 2022 playoffs.

 

 

That's fair. 

[Nihilarian]

6 hours ago, Mister Defense said:

 

But for the Bills to become a championship team, and stop the decline we witnessed last year, a clear point I make is the Bills need to change that dynamic.  It is clear that they MUST become a better running team for the offense,  Allen and the team to reach their potential.

 

When the Bills ran the Bill more in the last games of the 2021 season, made it an integral part of their game, one that defenses had to be very concerned about, Josh Allen became almost unstoppable in the playoffs.  And adding 'almost' there is  probably understating how good he played.

 

The Bills cannot continue on the same path we saw last year and need to run the ball more and make the running backs a more integral part of their game. But you are right that they don't run the ball very much.  That must change this year, and I think the vast majority of fans who know this team well understand that.

 

Then the best teams in the league won't be licking their chops come playoff time, knowing they can just focus on Josh Allen, and don't even really need to consider their running game.

What really bothers me is that the Buffalo FO / McD simply doesn't get this. We all saw it and it was a literal thrill to watch that Buffalo offense led by Josh Allen destroy the NE Patriots in that 2021 playoff game 47-17!

 

Then the next game against the Chiefs that went into OT was lost because of some bad calls on ST and defense at the end of regulation. Buffalo had like a 98% chance of winning that game with 13 seconds left...

The Buffalo offense was spectacular that day and is a big reason why Brian Daboll was hired by the NY Giants. 

 

Alas, It's like Bills OC Daboll never left when you watch the Buffalo Bills play calling at times this past season. However, Buffalo finished #2 overall in points scored, yards. Which equals Dabolls best season as OC in Buffalo. So, I question If the Buffalo Bills will just keep doing what they did offensively in 2022 and ignore the fact that their AFC rivals improved enough to contend for that AFC title. 

 

Let me say again that the 2022 Miami Dolphins went 9-8 with the 24th in points allowed, and 18th in yards allowed defense. They understood this and hired a new DC in Vic Fangio, who many know to have an excellent reputation as a defensive coordinator. Not only that the Dolphins made the trade for Jalen Ramsey. Buffalo used to match up well against the Dolphin's defense because of the scheme they would attempt to run with the wrong personnel. NOT ANYMORE! 

 

Now more than ever Buffalo needs to build a proper power run attack that will bring balance to their offense and give the Buffalo offense more options. Take some of the workload off QB Josh Allen and allow that offense to become even better...like it was at the end of 2021.  Then yes, it might be said best ever!

 

Buffalo still has some options at RB. Dalvin Cook... https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-trade-rumors-dalvin-cook-minnesota-vikings-cap-space

 

Also, Like I mentioned previously that a trade might be made with the Chargers to acquire RB Austin Ekeler. Who puts up numbers very similar to CMC. Ekeler was a walkon and is currently underpaid by other top back standards at 6 mill per. It might take as much as 11-12 mill per to make him happy. I keep mentioning Ekeler mostly because of the numbers he puts up in the passing game, very much like Thurman Thomas used to do. 

 

[Teddy KGB]

Dudes hype for Gesecki 

[eball]

21 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Those 90's Buffalo Bills teams managed to go to four straight super bowls... which is something no other NFL team has ever managed to do.

 

Yes, they lost them all... 

 

As prolific as the current Buffalo offense has been these last few seasons 2020, 2021, 2022. Do I need to say it...

 

Brother, I lived through them all (and went to one).  I’m not full of recency bias.  The 90s teams were amazing and in this era no team is likely to go to four straight again if even the vaunted Pats*** weren’t able to do it.

 

I’m also a realist.  The 90s Bills faltered when it mattered most, and they were far from perfect.  Josh Allen is better than Jim Kelly.  Stephon Diggs is on par with Andre Reed.  They have enough weapons, with the best QB in the league (in my homer-centric opinion), to be the best offense in Bills history.

 

That doesn’t mean I’m trashing the “golden age” of the Bills.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Brother, I lived through them all (and went to one).  I’m not full of recency bias.  The 90s teams were amazing and in this era no team is likely to go to four straight again if even the vaunted Pats*** weren’t able to do it.

 

I’m also a realist.  The 90s Bills faltered when it mattered most, and they were far from perfect.  Josh Allen is better than Jim Kelly.  Stephon Diggs is on par with Andre Reed.  They have enough weapons, with the best QB in the league (in my homer-centric opinion), to be the best offense in Bills history.

 

That doesn’t mean I’m trashing the “golden age” of the Bills.

 

I get it. Those 90s teams were in a different era, with different rules. Every Bills fan loves those old teams.

 

Okay, I'll say it. The current Buffalo Bills have had a prolific passing offense no question. Perhaps one of the best of the times. I think more highly of Buffalo QB Josh Allen than any other QB in the NFL today. That said, Buffalo hasn't yet reached a super bowl with this regime. 

 

 

 

Today's Buffalo offense has been excellent in passing, (#2 overall in 2022.) (#3 in points scored, and #5 in yards in 2021.) (#2 overall in 2020.) Which has been has been one of the very best offenses over the last three seasons. The offense looks good enough to win a super bowl. 

 

The Buffalo defense has usually been more than good enough the last few seasons. Middle of the pack in 2020. Number one overall in 2021. #2 in points allowed, #6 in yards allowed in 2022.

 

So, why no SB? In 2021 it was clearly the defense's fault, those 13 seconds. In 2020 the defense was smoked by the Chiefs in the AFC Championship game 38-24.

So, Brandon Beane went all out for an elite pass rusher in Von Miller. The problem was the defense was dealing with injuries everywhere all season in 2022.  

 

My thoughts are it wasn't just the defense as both the Chiefs nor Bengals field a defense that good. The 2022 Chiefs fielded a middle-of-the-road defense #16 in points allowed, and #11 in yards allowed. 15th in pass rush win rate at 41%.  Number one in offense though. Not just a passing offense as they could run when they needed. a 7th-round RB managed 15 rushes for 76 yards and a TD against the vaunted Eagle's defense. Not to mention that Patrick Mahomes was playing with a gimp ankle in that SB. That Eagle's defense led the NFL in pass rush win rate at 52%. Yet, the Chiefs allowed no sacks on Mahomes in that SB. 

 

 

Allow me to reiterate, Dorsey, run game, O line.  

 

Plus Balance! Today's Buffalo teams are so dependent on one player to carry the team and if for some reason he falters, the passing game falters. The win goes out the window. In 2021 Buffalo lost to the worst team in the NFL, the Jacksonville Jaguars 6-9 WTF? So much pressure on the QB. This game gave teams the blueprint. 

Josh Allen, the Buffalo Bills leading rusher is so many games, and that... needs... to... stop! The Buffalo run game looks good stat-wise because of all the QB runs.

 

 

Lastly, while relating to the 90s Buffalo Bills. I must say that today's teams have no one even close to the talent of RB Thurman Thomas! Nor the level of talent on that offensive line. Center Kent Hull was great, all pro, pro bowler. LT Will Wolford was excellent, pro bowler. LG Jim Ritcher, pro bowler.

Not to mention a one-of-a-kind special teamer demon in Steve Tasker.

[boater]

This thread reminds me of this cartoon: