RD 1, Pick 25: TE Dalton Kincaid, Utah

[Buffalo716]

15 minutes ago, JoeF said:

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/bills-first-round-pick-te-dalton-kincaid-signs-rookie-contract

 

Congrats, young man.  

 

The Kelce comparison likely isn't fair yet but I'll take the Bills version of Antonio Gates.....

Antonio Gates has 45 more TDs than Kelce in their careers lol

 

He has the potential of them but Antonio Gates is going to walk into the Hall of Fame

10 minutes ago, Beast said:

Kelce isn’t fair but Gates is? 

Exactly lol

[JoeF]

51 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Antonio Gates has 45 more TDs than Kelce in their careers lol

 

He has the potential of them but Antonio Gates is going to walk into the Hall of Fame

Exactly lol

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

 

 

1 hour ago, Beast said:

Kelce isn’t fair but Gates is? 

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

Edited May 13, 2023 by JoeF

[Buffalo716]

22 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

 

 

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

Getting receiving yards between the 20s And collecting yard stats does not tell the entire story of someone’s career

 

Is Kelce better ? Yea

 

Antonio Gates is walking into the Hall of Fame

 

No matter what you say Travis Kelce is not heads and shoulders above a first ballot Hall of Famer

Who will probably end his career with more touchdowns than Kelce

 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Augie]

14 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

 

 

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

 

Gates only retired about 5 years ago, but he played a LONG time. This just goes to show how the game has changed and become a (largely vertical) passing game. Gates would still be great, but Kelce, and hopefully Kincaid, are a different breed. 

[JoeF]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Getting receiving yards between the 20s And collecting yard stats does not tell the entire story of someone’s career

 

Antonio Gates is walking into the Hall of Fame

 

No matter what you say Travis Kelce is not heads and shoulders above a first ballot Hall of Famer

 

No running back is head and shoulders above Thurman Thomas.. Hall of Famer’s Are a different breed

 

So you don't read stats and you say Kelce is a between the 20's weapon?  Who beat us in OT with a TD beating our best LB in an AFC divisional game.  That between the 20's weapon. 

 

Gates and Kelce are both great players but to compare what Kelce is doing now to what Gates did is in my opinion mis-informed.  I am not here to debate you.  You are entitled to your opinion.  I just think I am right.  Thanks for the exchange.

Edited May 13, 2023 by JoeF

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

 

 

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

Agreed-  Kelce >> Gates.  
 

taking nothing away from Gates, but I’d take Kelce over Gates and wouldn’t think twice.  Easy decision imo

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

21 minutes ago, JoeF said:

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

 

 

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

 

 I'm not disagreeing with you that once all is said and done Kelce may indeed show to be the better TE, but Kelce is probably not passing Gates in yardage this season.

 

 In order for that to happen Kelce would need to have more yards this year than in any year of his career so far and do so while turning 34 in early October. Barring injury, a sudden sharp decline in play or a decision to retire after this year, he will most likely pass Gates in 2024.

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

18 minutes ago, JoeF said:

So you don't read stats and you say Kelce is a between the 20's weapon?  Who beat us in OT with a TD beating our best LB in an AFC divisional game.  That between the 20's weapon. 

 

Gates and Kelce are both great players but to compare what Kelce is doing now to what Gates did is in my opinion mis-informed.  I am not here to debate you.  You are entitled to your opinion.  I just think I am right.  Thanks for the exchange.

Well sometimes it takes 20 minutes to get there right word you’re looking for… And Kelce is still a mismatch on Milano … Gates would be too

 

If you would look back To my reply which I was changing as soon as I hit submit

 

I agree Travis is a better tightend 

 

I’m not arguing that

 

I’m arguing that one Hall of Famer is not head and shoulders above another walk in the Hall of Famer

 

We’re not comparing Travis and Knox lol

 

Gates helped change the game 

Edited May 13, 2023 by Buffalo716

[NewEra]

And Mark Clayton has 10 more TDs than James Lofton.  16 more than Andre Johnson. 
 

Jimmy Graham has 16 more TDs than Kelce.  
 

Clayton was clearly inferior to both players. 

6 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 I'm not disagreeing with you that once all is said and done Kelce may indeed show to be the better TE, but Kelce is probably not passing Gates in yardage this season.

 

 In order for that to happen Kelce would need to have more yards this year than in any year of his career so far and do so while turning 34 in early October. Barring injury, a sudden sharp decline in play or a decision to retire after this year, he will most likely pass Gates in 2024.

 

 

 

 

Gates - 236 games  11,800 yards 

Kelce - 144 games.  10.300 yards 

 

92 more games- 5.75 more seasons worth of games.  

Just pointing out the difference in games played.  Gates has less yards than Derrick Mason…. And 6 more games played.

 

again-  not taking away from Gates- playing in that many games is a tremendous feat in itself.  
 

 

[NewEra]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well sometimes it takes 20 minutes to get there right word you’re looking for… And Kelce is still a mismatch on Milano … Gates would be too

 

If you would look back To my reply which I was changing as soon as I hit submit

 

I agree Travis is a better tightend 

 

I’m not arguing that

 

I’m arguing that one Hall of Famer is not head and shoulders above another walk in the Hall of Famer

 

We’re not comparing Travis and Knox lol

 

Gates helped change the game 

I agree that he’s not head and shoulders above Gates but he’s clearly a tier above imo.  
 

I don’t consider Gates in competition for the best tight end ever.  Those that are in that conversation, imo, are a tier above.  Gronk, Gonzo and Kelce are my goat candidates.  
 

I can’t comment on Ditka because I’m too young. Winslow, imo, was the best prior to the new breeds. Wittens stats get him in tier 2.  Gates might be the best of tier

2.  He also might not.  
 

jmo

 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I agree that he’s not head and shoulders above Gates but he’s clearly a tier above imo.  
 

I don’t consider Gates in competition for the best tight end ever.  Those that are in that conversation, imo, are a tier above.  Gronk, Gonzo and Kelce are my goat candidates.  
 

I can’t comment on Ditka because I’m too young. Winslow, imo, was the best prior to the new breeds. Wittens stats get him in tier 2.  Gates might be the best of tier

2.  He also might not.  
 

jmo

 

I think Gronkowski while healthy is the best tight I’ve ever seen live 

 

But Gates absolutely is one of the guys that changed the mold for the modern tight end

 

I can’t argue that Marshall Faulk is better than Thurman Thomas because he has better stats

 

Thurman was Marshall Before Marshall

 

Travis is better than gates though

Edited May 13, 2023 by Buffalo716

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

I think Gronkowski while healthy is the best tight I’ve ever seen live 

 

But Gates absolutely is one of the guys that changed the mold for the modern tight end

 

I can’t argue that Marshall Faulk is better than Thurman Thomas because he has better stats

 

Thurman was Marshall Before Marshall

 

Travis is better than gates though

i don’t agree with the whole stats side of many arguments.  Everyone has their own way of putting together their lists.   I put mine together using the eye test, which certainly has its flaws.  It’s very easy to find error in my judgement in many cases, but that’s just how I see things.  

 

 Is Jason Witten better than Kelce?  I don’t think so.  He certainly has better stats.  Is emmitt smith better than OJ?   Steve Smith better than Julio Jones?  So many arguments can be made where the superior player has lesser stats. 
 

 

[Buffalo716]

10 minutes ago, NewEra said:

i don’t agree with the whole stats side of many arguments.  Everyone has their own way of putting together their lists.   I put mine together using the eye test, which certainly has its flaws.  It’s very easy to find error in my judgement in many cases, but that’s just how I see things.  

 

 Is Jason Witten better than Kelce?  I don’t think so.  He certainly has better stats.  Is emmitt smith better than OJ?   Steve Smith better than Julio Jones?  So many arguments can be made where the superior player has lesser stats. 
 

 

Emmett Smith is the Rushing king

 

Certainly is not one of the top five backs I’ve ever seen

Edited May 13, 2023 by Buffalo716

[Dr. Who]

9 minutes ago, NewEra said:

i don’t agree with the whole stats side of many arguments.  Everyone has their own way of putting together their lists.   I put mine together using the eye test, which certainly has its flaws.  It’s very easy to find error in my judgement in many cases, but that’s just how I see things.  

 

 Is Jason Witten better than Kelce?  I don’t think so.  He certainly has better stats.  Is emmitt smith better than OJ?   Steve Smith better than Julio Jones?  So many arguments can be made where the superior player has lesser stats. 
 

 

Excellent examples and in each case, the fella with lesser numbers is the better player. Below is a high falutin somewhat philosophical explanation for why you are right.

 

Quality cannot be fully comprehended by quantity. The "eye test" depends on the judgment of the particular person, i.e., the degree of wisdom derives from the character, experience, and capacity for discernment possessed by the individual. That's why prudence is not an abstract law, but a function of unique persons. Some folks dismiss the eye test tout court, but a skilled observer knows more than mere "stats guys" who follow the lead of modernity which seeks to remove the element of prudential judgment and replace it with impersonal tables of quantifiable data. Nonetheless, the ancient Aristotelian path is more discerning, especially in realms like sport and art that require an intuitive/aesthetic aspect that does not reduce to mere numbers.

 

 

[EmotionallyUnstable]

This is probably me being a biased sucker, but the more I watch and listen to this guy, the more excited I am to see him in action and how he can elevate our offense.

 

I went from “oh man another TE, whattt” to “holy hell, this might actually be dynamic”

 

Go Bills.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

3 hours ago, NewEra said:

And Mark Clayton has 10 more TDs than James Lofton.  16 more than Andre Johnson. 
 

Jimmy Graham has 16 more TDs than Kelce.  
 

Clayton was clearly inferior to both players. 

Gates - 236 games  11,800 yards 

Kelce - 144 games.  10.300 yards 

 

92 more games- 5.75 more seasons worth of games.  

Just pointing out the difference in games played.  Gates has less yards than Derrick Mason…. And 6 more games played.

 

again-  not taking away from Gates- playing in that many games is a tremendous feat in itself.  
 

 

 

 I'm well aware of Antonio's & Travis' career game counts. Matter of fact the top 3 TEs in career yards(Gonzalez, Witten & Gates) all have a minimum of 236 career games. To me Kelce & Gronk are the 2 best TEs of all-time, 1 having 144 career games(Kelce) and the other 143(Gronk). The top 3s best  attribute, to me, is longevity vs impact of the game.

 

 The top 3 combined have (10) 1,000 yard seasons out of the 50 years that they played. Kelce & Gronk combined have (11) 1,000 yard seasons out of the 23 years they've played. While Gronk has less 1,000 yard seasons than Kelce, he was an absolute beast as a blocker and was far more physical than the other 4 TEs I mentioned.

 

 If Kelce can add 3 or 4 more productive seasons and another Lombardi or 2, I think he'll go down as the current best TE to ever play the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sierra Foothills]

5 hours ago, JoeF said:

Kelce is dominating right now the way Gates never did.  Gates played 16 years, had one 1000 yard season and was a basketball player who understood positioning and leverage just like Kincaid has demonstrated in college.

 

Kelce has 7 straight 1000 yard seasons and will be a first ballot hall of famer.  His stats will dwarf Gates if they play the same amount of years.  He will exceed Gates yards this year.

 

To say that Gates is greater than or at the same level than Kelce is misinformed and not supported by the stats.

Kelce's stats and play dwarf Gates..they are not at the same level.  Kincaid is similar to Gates with the Basketball background and understanding positioning in leverage.  There has never been a TE like Kelce.  There have been other's like Gates.  

 

Regardless of stats, Gates seems like an odd person to come up in discussion as a comparable because stylistically he and Kincaid seem very different to me.

 

Changing gears, last week The Athletic had more discussion on Kincaid:

 

“I like Kincaid to Buffalo,” an exec said. “He was clearly the No. 1 tight end for us. You put him in that offense, then you take the guard in the second round. That is scary for a top-five offense to reload and potentially get better. I like what they did.”

The Athletic’s Randy Mueller (former New Orleans GM) ranked Kincaid as the 10th-best prospect in this draft and his favorite overall evaluation.

“Getting the player is one thing, deploying him is another,” another exec said. “When you start talking about the contenders, Buffalo is not necessarily going the other way, but they do rely too much on their quarterback. The key is going to be how well their coordinator is able to use two tight ends. You don’t see every coordinator do that well.”

 

Paywall and apologies if this was already posted: https://theathletic.com/4490198/2023/05/05/nfl-draft-class-analysis-execs-unfiltered/

 

 

 

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Sierra Foothills

[John from Riverside]

Dalton has signed his rookie contract

[Sierra Foothills]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Dalton has signed his rookie contract

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 I'm well aware of Antonio's & Travis' career game counts. Matter of fact the top 3 TEs in career yards(Gonzalez, Witten & Gates) all have a minimum of 236 career games. To me Kelce & Gronk are the 2 best TEs of all-time, 1 having 144 career games(Kelce) and the other 143(Gronk). The top 3s best  attribute, to me, is longevity vs impact of the game.

 

 The top 3 combined have (10) 1,000 yard seasons out of the 50 years that they played. Kelce & Gronk combined have (11) 1,000 yard seasons out of the 23 years they've played. While Gronk has less 1,000 yard seasons than Kelce, he was an absolute beast as a blocker and was far more physical than the other 4 TEs I mentioned.

 

 If Kelce can add 3 or 4 more productive seasons and another Lombardi or 2, I think he'll go down as the current best TE to ever play the game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Personally,  Gronk belongs in the All-time TE conversation in any era..........Kelce almost plays a different position altogether than those other guys.

 

The 2010 rules changes really had their biggest impact on receiving in the middle of the field.........which is where TE's operate.

 

Kelce has basically played his entire career with a different set of rules than guys like Gates and Gonzalez played well into the primes of their careers.