Wr Overload and what really needs to get done

[Kirby Jackson]

51 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

No there are people in the local media and the fan base that are deadset that we have to take a WR at 27 no matter what is on the board. Don’t care about anything else. Recommend something else and your a moron 

If you recommend ANY position you are a moron. The position is 100% dependent on the players available. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

These guys copy and paste the same show every day.

 

Somehow the Cardinals moving up 7-slots, eating 2/3rds of Hopkins money is a realistic idea because Jimmy Johnson made a chart in 1989, followed, of course, by more betting lines and prop bets. 
 

Those two are all over the map throwing up ridiculous scenarios. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

4 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Copying other teams isn't always the best path to success.

The last three Super Bowl champions (Chiefs, Rams, Bucs) had totally different strengths, and were built in completely different ways.

 

Ken Dorsey should be building primarily around the strengths of Josh Allen, and Brandon Beane should be stockpiling talent that fits the scheme/system that Dorsey creates.  Neither should be worried about how the Chiefs achieved their success.

 

Having a great O-Line should always be a priority, regardless of system.  But just because Travis Kelce is the perfect fit for Patrick Mahomes, doesn't mean our offense needs another elite TE to succeed.  Josh Allen's greatest success has always come with a top-level slot receiver (Cole Beasley) as his safety outlet.

 

 

Drafting trends have also changed over the years.

The more teams are running 3-WR sets and spread offenses, the more they are putting a value on slot receivers.

U mention the Chiefs, Bucs and Rams the one thing that all these teams shared is that they are great in the trenches and play a physical brand of football . 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Dibiase is worse and it't not just them, its 90% of the fanbase.   Going back to when the Bills traded for TO, there has been a weird obsession with the WR position.  Could the Bills upgrade the #2, yes they can.  They also can upgrade #2 TE, RT, LB, Edge not to mention they have 0 DT's signed after this year.  WR is not the #1 need no matter what anyone says.  They are trying to make the #2 offense in yards, points, third down conversions better...all they will really to is redistribute receptions.

Strange obsession?

 

Matt did you watch the Bills play offense from 2006-2018?

 

Commonly, no QB, trying to run the ball and play ball control, scoring 20 points per game.

 

”popgun” offense and zero offensive star players.

1 hour ago, BillMafia716ix said:

I stopped listening to WGR a long time ago. They are just fan boys with no real insight. Me personally…the front 7 of the defense is far more important than a WR. ILB or DT should be our priority in the first round. 

So you watch the Super Bowl and conclude defense still wins Championships? 
 

Well if that’s the case, the Bills agree with you because they’ve done everything they can to bring back everyone on that unit and they get Von Miller back.

 

We’ll see. 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The way other Super Bowl teams have been constructed is irrelevant.

The Bills run 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE, 3 WR) probably 70% of the time, and are one of the most pass-heavy teams in the NFL.  There is a reason people are pushing for adding talent at Wide Receiver.

 

Many people who study the Bills on film believe - and have believed since about mid-season last year - that our primary inconsistency on offense was tied heavily to poor production from the slot receiver position.  Regain control over the short-middle of the field, and you will see less turnovers from Josh Allen and better production from Gabe Davis down the sideline.

 

You won't get an argument from me about drafting O-Line.  And considering the depth at Defensive End in the draft, I won't be upset if we add another guy at that position either.  But just because teams like the Chiefs got away with sub-par talent at WR doesn't mean we can do the same.  

 

 

 

Playcalling felt a bit stale too as the year went on, which i assume is something that happens to a first time coordinator.  

[BillsVet]

Read TBD's best posters and they'll reference how Buffalo's scheme flexibility is pretty limited on both sides of the ball.  Perhaps that is evolving, but I haven't seen much evidence to support this on offense.    

 

If you're investing a big/moderate resource, i.e. a RD1/2 pick, that player should present a matchup disadvantage.  All too often, Buffalo's pick have not provided that benefit and it limits their game-planning.    

 

If they did go WR there, this player should elevate the play or permit those new offensive looks...and that means interchangeability.  Because by season's end, if you're limited in how to use a WR, it gets awfully difficult to throw new looks at opponents. 

 

[gonzo1105]

1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

Read TBD's best posters and they'll reference how Buffalo's scheme flexibility is pretty limited on both sides of the ball.  Perhaps that is evolving, but I haven't seen much evidence to support this on offense.    

 

If you're investing a big/moderate resource, i.e. a RD1/2 pick, that player should present a matchup disadvantage.  All too often, Buffalo's pick have not provided that benefit and it limits their game-planning.    

 

If they did go WR there, this player should elevate the play or permit those new offensive looks...and that means interchangeability.  Because by season's end, if you're limited in how to use a WR, it gets awfully difficult to throw new looks at opponents. 

 

 

Not many guys do that in this draft. Thats why i've been advocating for Kincaid if he's on the board. He provides exactly what your saying interchangeability of parts, forcing teams to prep for our vaunted 10, 11 personnel while also being able to add in 12 personnel sets. For WR's the guy who does that is Jalin Hyatt but he's going to take a year or two to hopefully become the player everyone wants. 

 

Everyone also thinks of 12 as being Two TE's on the line but you can do so much with 12 personnel that is different than 10 and 11. The Bills are not a hard study its just that they are more talented than most teams. 

[Simon Says]

5 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I realize the Bills have needs obviously every team has needs and no team has ever won the Super Bowl with a perfect team. Jeremy White and WGR have lead the Wr train this off-season and I feel it’s gotten out of hand . It’s borderline annoying and can’t help but think these guys don’t know anything about football . If u look at the last 25 seasons or even more u will see plenty of teams have won the Lombardi with less WR talent then what the Bills currently have. This idea that we need a Wr in a horrible yr for that position in this draft is insanity to me. Most of these guys are slot type Wrs and u don’t take slot Wrs in the first or second rd of the draft. 
 

I’ve been doing some research on Super Bowl winning teams and the most common denominator of those winning teams other then QB is in the trenches the lines so to speak and other then that it’s the identity of those teams. Those teams for the most part if not all had a physical identity and a aggressive mentality scheme wise . We definitely know the Bills are not Super bowl caliber in the trenches and we are definitely not Super Bowl caliber in physicality or schematically.
 

With that all being said i believe the Bills should attack this draft in the trenches and the good news is it’s not a bad yr for Oline or DEs . I know I know we’ve wasted pks on Basham and Epenesa recently but I hate to say it we need to keep drafting edge or even interior players on defense and on offense with need more offensive line.

 

To quote Doug Whaley the Bills have put themselves in somewhat a purgatory position when it comes to the lines the players they have are not bad enough to be outright replaced but also not good enough to be the difference in a Super Bowl caliber team. We are basically middle of the pack in those spots and middle of the pack doesn’t get the job done. It’s on McBeane now to identify these needs and realize we must get much better in those areas and to cancel out the noise from the Bills fans and media about going Wr early in the draft and continue to build at the LOS. 

I want a Von Miller clone in the draft: a smaller, quicker pass rusher than Epenesa, for example. Perhaps an Edge that can also play LB.

[gonzo1105]

Just now, Herb Nightly said:

I want a Von Miller clone in the draft: a smaller, quicker pass rusher than Epenesa, for example. Perhaps an Edge that can also play LB.

 

Idk about clone but if your looking for that type of guy who will be possibly available at 27 your looking at Will McDonald IV out of Iowa State

[Don Otreply]

5 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I realize the Bills have needs obviously every team has needs and no team has ever won the Super Bowl with a perfect team. Jeremy White and WGR have lead the Wr train this off-season and I feel it’s gotten out of hand . It’s borderline annoying and can’t help but think these guys don’t know anything about football . If u look at the last 25 seasons or even more u will see plenty of teams have won the Lombardi with less WR talent then what the Bills currently have. This idea that we need a Wr in a horrible yr for that position in this draft is insanity to me. Most of these guys are slot type Wrs and u don’t take slot Wrs in the first or second rd of the draft. 
 

I’ve been doing some research on Super Bowl winning teams and the most common denominator of those winning teams other then QB is in the trenches the lines so to speak and other then that it’s the identity of those teams. Those teams for the most part if not all had a physical identity and a aggressive mentality scheme wise . We definitely know the Bills are not Super bowl caliber in the trenches and we are definitely not Super Bowl caliber in physicality or schematically.
 

With that all being said i believe the Bills should attack this draft in the trenches and the good news is it’s not a bad yr for Oline or DEs . I know I know we’ve wasted pks on Basham and Epenesa recently but I hate to say it we need to keep drafting edge or even interior players on defense and on offense with need more offensive line.

 

To quote Doug Whaley the Bills have put themselves in somewhat a purgatory position when it comes to the lines the players they have are not bad enough to be outright replaced but also not good enough to be the difference in a Super Bowl caliber team. We are basically middle of the pack in those spots and middle of the pack doesn’t get the job done. It’s on McBeane now to identify these needs and realize we must get much better in those areas and to cancel out the noise from the Bills fans and media about going Wr early in the draft and continue to build at the LOS. 

Agree!  The game is won and lost in the trenches!  It’s always been that way, and nothing has changed in that respect in the current era.  The reality is that if the lines don’t hold up, play’s don’t have much chance to be executed correctly, regardless of who the “skill” players are. I sure hope Beane sees this as the fact it is, especially on the offensive line. 

[Success]

The hated Patriots are the blueprint for me. They never invested a lot in the WR position, except one time - they had a top tier QB, and believed in protecting that QB and giving him more time in the pocket. Brady made plenty of middlin' receivers look great that way.

 

We do NOT need to keep investing in WR's.  Our current group is a really good one.  I have seen so much talk on this board about how you have to have an elite #2 also.  I wholeheartedly disagree w/ that.

 

If the Bills can build a top 5 O-line, the rest takes care of itself.  Allen can do the same thing Brady did - make guys like Edelman, who we likely would barely have heard of if he was on some other teams, a star.

 

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Some of the best slot WRs in the league and where they were drafted:

 

 

Tyler Boyd 2nd round

Christian Kirk 2nd round

Randall Cobb 2nd round

Jerry Jeudy 1st round

Chase Claypool 2nd round

Parris Campbell 2nd round

Curtis Samuel 2nd round

Cooper Kupp 4th round but would have been a fantastic value well into the top half of the 1st

Deebo Samuel (33 of 43 in the slot last year)  2nd round

 

It just simply ain't so that you don't draft slots in the first or second. They're rare in the first, but most of the best of them came precisely in the 2nd.

you know what? none of that means anything... this is one of the better slot WR drafts with the lack of high end outside WR's good enough in round 1. 

 

The reason those slot guys went late is because teams tend to need Sideline WR more often than not. Many times, a #1 WR or a #2 WR comes out and they just play them in the slot cause that is how it worked out...

 

This draft simply has more slot guys than #1/#2 guys early in the draft. And because most drafts its reverse by far and this particular draft happens to be a stronger slot draft... that is just how it is showing right now.

 

Its just a mess... I get where your coming from... but this is just a ODD WR year. 

[BADOLBILZ]

6 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I realize the Bills have needs obviously every team has needs and no team has ever won the Super Bowl with a perfect team. Jeremy White and WGR have lead the Wr train this off-season and I feel it’s gotten out of hand . It’s borderline annoying and can’t help but think these guys don’t know anything about football . If u look at the last 25 seasons or even more u will see plenty of teams have won the Lombardi with less WR talent then what the Bills currently have. This idea that we need a Wr in a horrible yr for that position in this draft is insanity to me. Most of these guys are slot type Wrs and u don’t take slot Wrs in the first or second rd of the draft. 
 

I’ve been doing some research on Super Bowl winning teams and the most common denominator of those winning teams other then QB is in the trenches the lines so to speak and other then that it’s the identity of those teams. Those teams for the most part if not all had a physical identity and a aggressive mentality scheme wise . We definitely know the Bills are not Super bowl caliber in the trenches and we are definitely not Super Bowl caliber in physicality or schematically.
 

With that all being said i believe the Bills should attack this draft in the trenches and the good news is it’s not a bad yr for Oline or DEs . I know I know we’ve wasted pks on Basham and Epenesa recently but I hate to say it we need to keep drafting edge or even interior players on defense and on offense with need more offensive line.

 

To quote Doug Whaley the Bills have put themselves in somewhat a purgatory position when it comes to the lines the players they have are not bad enough to be outright replaced but also not good enough to be the difference in a Super Bowl caliber team. We are basically middle of the pack in those spots and middle of the pack doesn’t get the job done. It’s on McBeane now to identify these needs and realize we must get much better in those areas and to cancel out the noise from the Bills fans and media about going Wr early in the draft and continue to build at the LOS. 

 

 

Yes they may need 5 different starting offensive lineman as soon as 2024.........factoring in likely moves to different positions by Bates and Dawkins that may even be LIKELY.

 

You aren't getting that with 1 draft pick.

 

You could get a difference maker at WR with 1 pick, though.

 

This is why I laugh at the people that want to just throw picks at a volume of offensive lineman and eschew edge/island positions on principle.

 

How did that work throwing early picks at DL in back-to-back drafts?    They went 1 for 3.

 

You have to get the best players available at the premium positions early in the draft........just attacking a position of need leads to some ugly drafts.

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

4 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

Agree completely.  Depending who is there, OL/DT/DE/WR should all be in play 1st 2 rounds.  Then, add TE and MLB to that list.

 

We need a good slot WR, that can create separation/RAC ability.  Shakir hasn't shown hes ready yet, and Harty is a dart throw.  But unless a premier guy slides to 27, this can be filled in the 2nd-3rd rounds.

 

Then in a deep TE class, a #2 TE can be found in the 4th/5th round.  We barely utilize Knox enough, bc our oline needs constant help, and people want another high-end TE.  Not likely, and a big shift in offensive strategy.

 

agree. O line in the first and pray somehow that we can land Downs in the second. Maybe a small trade-up.

[PrimeTime101]

4 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes they may need 5 different starting offensive lineman as soon as 2024.........factoring in likely moves to different positions by Bates and Dawkins that may even be LIKELY.

 

You aren't getting that with 1 draft pick.

 

You could get a difference maker at WR with 1 pick, though.

 

This is why I laugh at the people that want to just throw picks at a volume of offensive lineman and eschew edge/island positions on principle.

 

How did that work throwing early picks at DL in back-to-back drafts?    They went 1 for 3.

 

You have to get the best players available at the premium positions early in the draft........just attacking a position of need leads to some ugly drafts.

 

#1 that is a dumb comment to make. They may need 5 different starting offensive lineman 2024? McGovern is good for 3 years and I guess if he is good as advertised they extend him. Dawkins is good through 2024 and I could see them extending him for 2 years... They may need 5 different starting offensive line as soon as 2024? come on man... lets keep this real ok?

 

I would have no problems taking Dawand Jones in the first round... that secures that position for years to come in my opinion so we DONT have to replace so many next year. Forward thinking instead of NOW thinking.  I also have no problems moving up late first early second for Josh Downs. That locks up your slot for years to come.  

 

I am sick and tired of our offensive line being second in thought.. its getting old.. We have become the old Colts with Manning... great QB with a trash OL. And to continue to ignore this offensive line the way we have the past couple of years just pisses me off. 

 

To your last bolded, Beane stated they thought in round 3 that he was the best prospect on the board... you actually think he did that on purpose?  Lots of horrible narratives going on here bro... 

[BADOLBILZ]

8 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

#1 that is a dumb comment to make. They may need 5 different starting offensive lineman 2024? McGovern is good for 3 years and I guess if he is good as advertised they extend him. Dawkins is good through 2024 and I could see them extending him for 2 years... They may need 5 different starting offensive line as soon as 2024? come on man... lets keep this real ok?

 

I would have no problems taking Dawand Jones in the first round... that secures that position for years to come in my opinion so we DONT have to replace so many next year. Forward thinking instead of NOW thinking.  I also have no problems moving up late first early second for Josh Downs. That locks up your slot for years to come.  

 

I am sick and tired of our offensive line being second in thought.. its getting old.. We have become the old Colts with Manning... great QB with a trash OL. And to continue to ignore this offensive line the way we have the past couple of years just pisses me off. 

 

To your last bolded, Beane stated they thought in round 3 that he was the best prospect on the board... you actually think he did that on purpose?  Lots of horrible narratives going on here bro... 

 

 

I'm merely admitting that they may need a significant overhaul.   I hope not.........but it's not a young line full of solid performers.

 

The 2016 Bills OL lead the entire NFL in rushing and had 2 pro bowlers and a good LT and a promising young guard.   Their 2018 offensive line was 5 different players entirely.

 

The current Bills OL is similarly aged.......Morse likely in his last year.......Dawkins coming off an average LT season and trending down 3 straight seasons........3 guards who are marginal NFL starters at best...........and a RT who really struggled last year and has a back injury history(huge for tall OL).

 

The Bills can cut Connor McGovern next offseason and save $1.8M.   He's been a nobody and a part time starter.   If you are certain that Beane found a gem for $7M per year then you have a lot of faith in a GM with a terrible track record with such signings in UFA.   Edwards is a 1 year deal for a guy who seems kinda' broken.   Bates is probably the successor to Morse unless they draft a center(which is possible) or he could be a cut candidate.   Also very reasonable to think that Bates is the C and Dawkins is a high salary guard in 2024.........and 3 players not even on the roster today are manning the other spots.   So yeah........starters at 5 different positions. 

 

It's the NFL........turnover % can be HUGE.

 

Dawand Jones securing the position for years?  Have you looked at the track record of "sure-thing" RT's taken in round 1?   If not you are just willfully ignorant.  Because in order to be limited to RT you need to not have the feet to play LT.  

 

Good defenses often have 2 excellent edge rushers so you end up with Spencer Brown or Jordan Mills situations either way early in their career.  That's why teams have TE's and RB's to help on the strong side and it's also why RT's then don't need to be that good.   If they do pan out........teams generally let them hit UFA because RT really isn't an edge/island position.   Frankly, the quality guard play is more important than the RT.  

 

If the Bills felt the need to spend a $20M-$30M aav kinda' chip that a 1st rounder is........they could have just signed Wylie or McGlinchey.  The cost wasn't that prohibitive.   It would be beyond bizarre for them to use a 1st rounder on a RT given the market for them.

 

So you can be sick and tired of some aspect of the Bills all you want.   It's the right of every idiot fan to feel that way.  But if you don't utilize the draft to get the best players at premium positions early........you are using it the wrong way. 

[ColoradoBills]

It's a weak draft and reaching for any player by position is risky at best.

I do agree with the OP that the OL is the weak spot for the offense.  

Pick #27 is in a tough spot and I'm hoping Beane can stay fluid enough to get the best out of it.

[PrimeTime101]

12 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm merely admitting that they may need a significant overhaul.   I hope not.........but it's not a young line full of solid performers.

 

The 2016 Bills OL lead the entire NFL in rushing and had 2 pro bowlers and a good LT and a promising young guard.   Their 2018 offensive line was 5 different players entirely.

 

The current Bills OL is similarly aged.......Morse likely in his last year.......Dawkins coming off an average LT season and trending down 3 straight seasons........3 guards who are marginal NFL starters at best...........and a RT who really struggled last year and has a back injury history(huge for tall OL).

 

The Bills can cut Connor McGovern next offseason and save $1.8M.   He's been a nobody and a part time starter.   If you are certain that Beane found a gem for $7M per year then you have a lot of faith in a GM with a terrible track record with such signings in UFA.   Edwards is a 1 year deal for a guy who seems kinda' broken.   Bates is probably the successor to Morse unless they draft a center(which is possible) or he could be a cut candidate.   Also very reasonable to think that Bates is the C and Dawkins is a high salary guard in 2024.........and 3 players not even on the roster today are manning the other spots.   So yeah........starters at 5 different positions. 

 

It's the NFL........turnover % can be HUGE.

 

Dawand Jones securing the position for years?  Have you looked at the track record of "sure-thing" RT's taken in round 1?   If not you are just willfully ignorant.  Because in order to be limited to RT you need to not have the feet to play LT.  

 

Good defenses often have 2 excellent edge rushers so you end up with Spencer Brown or Jordan Mills situations either way early in their career.  That's why teams have TE's and RB's to help on the strong side and it's also why RT's then don't need to be that good.   If they do pan out........teams generally let them hit UFA because RT really isn't an edge/island position.   Frankly, the quality guard play is more important than the RT.  

 

If the Bills felt the need to spend a $20M-$30M aav kinda' chip that a 1st rounder is........they could have just signed Wylie or McGlinchey.  The cost wasn't that prohibitive.   It would be beyond bizarre for them to use a 1st rounder on a RT given the market for them.

 

So you can be sick and tired of some aspect of the Bills all you want.   It's the right of every idiot fan to feel that way.  But if you don't utilize the draft to get the best players at premium positions early........you are using it the wrong way. 

there is to much nonsense in this thread to even reply to it.  "The Bills can cut Connor McGovern next offseason and save $1.8M." it starts with this silly comment and it never ends. Cut a 26 year old likely in prime for 1.8 mil... Come on man..... 

[colin]

we need to add WR talent from last year, and we have added a little, but i think WRs are the new left tackles in the blind side era whereby they were over valued and more so over drafted.  there were so many busts and jags drafted high at LT for a few years (remember that guy from baylor who went top 3 and got traded to the jets for a song?).

 

the difference is it's really hard to find a guy who can just actually play LT in the NFL, only so many big guys, so people get desperate and draft fat slugs high who can't play at all.

 

with WRs, it can be hard to evaluate just how good a guy is.  bad qb play makes him look worse, bad scheme for him, or on the flip side having great guys around him makes him look better.

[BillsVet]

2 hours ago, gonzo1105 said:

Not many guys do that in this draft. Thats why i've been advocating for Kincaid if he's on the board. He provides exactly what your saying interchangeability of parts, forcing teams to prep for our vaunted 10, 11 personnel while also being able to add in 12 personnel sets. For WR's the guy who does that is Jalin Hyatt but he's going to take a year or two to hopefully become the player everyone wants. 

 

Everyone also thinks of 12 as being Two TE's on the line but you can do so much with 12 personnel that is different than 10 and 11. The Bills are not a hard study its just that they are more talented than most teams. 

 

Yeah, I'm not buying that about WR projections.  NFL personnel people with loads of data on guys can't accurately predict a guy's ceiling and I'm pretty confident as a result you can't either.  

 

I'm not totally averse to a TE, but Buffalo is already paying one 13M AAV to be their receiving guy.   As to receiving options, be they WR or TE, Buffalo is behind KC and CIN for now and the reason is because they don't continually invest there.  And that's not unexpected, they traded for one guy and his then contract, but have committed mid round picks and signed lower tier WR UFAs to short term deals.