The Allen-Diggs Relationship in Decline?

[Einstein]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

So the "blow up" was him missing the first day, having a meeting with McDermott and others, and either leaving or being told to leave, the building?

 

What a silly game you’re playing. 

 

Diggs is seen on the sideline with his arms in the air yelling at Josh Allen at the end of a playoff game > He leaves the stadium before the coaches and other teammates even get into the locker room > Nexr time we see him, he is in a meeting with Head Coach > this meeting becomes heated enough that he left or was told to leave a mandatory team camp > Head Coach publicly tells reporters that he is “very worried” > Diggs agent said “there are things being worked out” 

 

If you want to downplay it and label it as something other than a blow up, feel free. I choose to live with my head out of the sand.

 

 

[Beck Water]

35 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

What a silly game you’re playing. 

 

Diggs is seen on the sideline with his arms in the air yelling at Josh Allen at the end of a playoff game > He leaves the stadium before the coaches and other teammates even get into the locker room > Nexr time we see him, he is in a meeting with Head Coach > this meeting becomes heated enough that he left or was told to leave a mandatory team camp > Head Coach publicly tells reporters that he is “very worried” > Diggs agent said “there are things being worked out” 

 

If you want to downplay it and label it as something other than a blow up, feel free. I choose to live with my head out of the sand.

 

I mostly choose to ignore you.  If that's living with my head in the sand, I'm OK with that.

 

I just wanted to clarify what you were talking about.   Myself, I think the blow-up happened sometime during the 2022 season and the rest was just symptoms or attempts at repair, but that's just me.

 

By training camp last year, the strong narrative was "nothing to see here, All Good!"

Edited July 28 by Beck Water

[Einstein]

3 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

I just wanted to clarify what you were talking about.  

 

I do not believe you are being honest. I believe you noticed that I wrote training-camp instead of mini-camp and thus saw an opportunity to correct me and you seized it. You then decided to double down and quibble over the term “blow up”, implying that you felt it was less of a blow up, and more of a … actually i’m not even sure what you wanted to label a situation where a high profile player was either kicked out of mini-camp for a day or told to leave after a heated conversation with the head coach that was serious enough to make the head coach publicly announce to reporters that he is very worried. When your silly actions were pointed out to you, your ego kicked into overdrive and you were quick to point out that you often ignore me, which had nothing to do with what we are talking about, but was a way for you to get (what you perceive) a dig in.

 

I had you pegged, and how this conversation would go, from the moment you first responded. It was fun watching it play out. Human psychology is very predictable.

 

You may have the last word.

 

 

[hondo in seattle]

3 hours ago, PrimeTime101 said:

 

Don't give us that garbage Hondo.   You made lots of guesses, that some came out right and some wrong. You deleted your initial post cause hit has so many unproven facts (at the time) you got laughed at off the board and you deleted your original post.   You get a medal for Guessing a couple things right... but there was a whole lot of guessing. Thats all you get.. so keep bumping this thread and enjoy those "guessing medals" on your chest.  At that point during the year NO ONE new facts, so the guessing games you played... well you got what you deserved...

 

PT, I've been wrong about a lot of things which I happily admit.  No one's right all the time.  I don't know what my batting percentage is and don't care.  I'll guess it's fairly good, like a lot of other informed fans, despite your low opinion.  But even if I was only batting .200, it wouldn't matter.   I'm just a fan and not paid to be right.  

I did NOT delete my initial post.  It's still there, the first post in the thread.  

 

I did NOT present any unproven facts as facts. I made some speculations based on what we were all seeing.  Sorry if you added up the same observations and came to the wrong conclusion.  

 

I was NEVER laughed off the board.  I'm here reading and posting shamelessly nearly ever day.  

 

The soldiers I went to war with, the people I've worked with, my friends and family know my true character.  This board is a lark, a hobby.   It both informs and amuses me, whether people agree with me or not.  When people agree with me, it does nothing for my overall self-esteem or general happiness.  When people disagree, again it does nothing for my self-esteem or happiness.  Even your ill-informed attack only made me smile because it's so delightfully warped.   

 

 

Edited July 28 by hondo in seattle

[oldmanfan]

Diggs is gone.  And I seriously doubt he’d be gone if Josh had not been OK with the move.  

[Billl]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I do not believe you are being honest. I believe you noticed that I wrote training-camp instead of mini-camp and thus saw an opportunity to correct me and you seized it. You then decided to double down and quibble over the term “blow up”, implying that you felt it was less of a blow up, and more of a … actually i’m not even sure what you wanted to label a situation where a high profile player was either kicked out of mini-camp for a day or told to leave after a heated conversation with the head coach that was serious enough to make the head coach publicly announce to reporters that he is very worried. When your silly actions were pointed out to you, your ego kicked into overdrive and you were quick to point out that you often ignore me, which had nothing to do with what we are talking about, but was a way for you to get (what you perceive) a dig in.

 

I had you pegged, and how this conversation would go, from the moment you first responded. It was fun watching it play out. Human psychology is very predictable.

 

 

It is funny how you can look at this debate with the benefit of hindsight and see that one side was 100% validated, yet those who took the other side can still refuse to acknowledge that they were wrong.  The Bills are paying $31,000,000 for the best player to ever share a locker room with Allen to play for the Texans.  It doesn’t get any more definitive than that.

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

PT, I've been wrong about a lot of things which I happily admit.  No one's right all the time.  I don't know what my batting percentage is and don't care.  I'll guess it's fairly good, like a lot of other informed fans, despite your low opinion.  But even if I was only batting .200, it wouldn't matter.   I'm just a fan and not paid to be right.  

I did NOT delete my initial post.  It's still there, the first post in the thread.  

 

I did NOT present any unproven facts as facts. I made some speculations based on what we were all seeing.  Sorry if you added up the same observations and came to the wrong conclusion.  

 

I was NEVER laughed off the board.  I'm here reading and posting shamelessly nearly ever day.  

 

The soldiers I went to war with, the people I've worked with, my friends and family know my true character.  This board is a lark, a hobby.   It both informs and amuses me, whether people agree with me or not.  When people agree with me, it does nothing for my overall self-esteem or general happiness.  When people disagree, again it does nothing for my self-esteem or happiness.  Even your ill-informed attack only made me smile because it's so delightfully warped.   

 

 

someone quoted you and the when you click to its origins just like these replies, its deleted. 

[hondo in seattle]

41 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

someone quoted you and the when you click to its origins just like these replies, its deleted. 

 

I stand by what  I said.  I never deleted the original post as you claimed.  It's still there for all the world to see.  I never presented my guesses as facts, as you claimed.  They were always presented as speculation.  And unlike you, I never made any unkind or disrespectful posts.   I'm aware that opinions are like a-holes.  We all have them and they all smell pretty bad sometimes - mine too.  

 

 

On 7/25/2024 at 9:47 PM, hondo in seattle said:

 

I'm wrong so often (I thought Sherfield would be a good addition), that I have to celebrate my good takes.

 

 

My gloating was never serious as I made clear.  

 

It's just football.  It's a game.  It's one that I enjoy but there are other things in my life that are far more consequential.  Being right or wrong on a message board is meaningless.  

 

I do believe in this though:  We Bills fans have suffered together.  Tom Brady.  17 years of drought.  1 win seasons.  0 Lombardis...  We ought to be a band of brothers.  We ought to support eachother, console eachother, celebrate eachother.  

 

Apparently you and I don't see the world through the same lens.  

 

Edited July 28 by hondo in seattle

[FireChans]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I do not believe you are being honest. I believe you noticed that I wrote training-camp instead of mini-camp and thus saw an opportunity to correct me and you seized it. You then decided to double down and quibble over the term “blow up”, implying that you felt it was less of a blow up, and more of a … actually i’m not even sure what you wanted to label a situation where a high profile player was either kicked out of mini-camp for a day or told to leave after a heated conversation with the head coach that was serious enough to make the head coach publicly announce to reporters that he is very worried. When your silly actions were pointed out to you, your ego kicked into overdrive and you were quick to point out that you often ignore me, which had nothing to do with what we are talking about, but was a way for you to get (what you perceive) a dig in.

 

I had you pegged, and how this conversation would go, from the moment you first responded. It was fun watching it play out. Human psychology is very predictable.

 

You may have the last word.

 

 

In the biz, we call this a verbal headshot. 
 

Oof.

[TBBills Fan]

3 hours ago, FireChans said:

In the biz, we call this a verbal headshot. 
 

Oof.

I felt the same way

 

@Einsteinhit a killshot

[Spiderweb]

Have we had enough yet?

[Beck Water]

On 7/28/2024 at 8:53 AM, Einstein said:

 

I do not believe you are being honest. I believe you noticed that I wrote training-camp instead of mini-camp and thus saw an opportunity to correct me and you seized it. You then decided to double down and quibble over the term “blow up”, implying that you felt it was less of a blow up, and more of a … actually i’m not even sure what you wanted to label a situation where a high profile player was either kicked out of mini-camp for a day or told to leave after a heated conversation with the head coach that was serious enough to make the head coach publicly announce to reporters that he is very worried. When your silly actions were pointed out to you, your ego kicked into overdrive and you were quick to point out that you often ignore me, which had nothing to do with what we are talking about, but was a way for you to get (what you perceive) a dig in.

 

I had you pegged, and how this conversation would go, from the moment you first responded. It was fun watching it play out. Human psychology is very predictable.

 

You may have the last word.

 

I'll believe that last when I see it.  The bit about "human psychology being very predictable" is likely to prove ironic.

 

You can believe I'm not being honest if you choose.  Why would you think I care what you believe?  You're attaching outsize importance to yourself here, though; why would I go around looking for "opportunities to correct you"?   Bit egocentric, woudn't you think?

 

IMO, a "blow up" during training camp is different than a private meeting in a coach's office before the start of minicamp, so to me, if there were a training camp blowup I missed or had forgotten about, that would be a significant difference.  YMMV, whatev's 

Either way, it's pretty clear by all accounts that tension between Josh and Diggs dated to the previous season and preceded the Bengals playoff loss where he was publicly observed gesticulating and yelling at Allen while Allen ignored him.   
 

The hope at this time last season was that any issues between Allen and Diggs had been resolved or at least patched up effectively.  The results early in the season bore this out: the Bills were 4-2 and Diggs had >100 yds receiving in 5 of those 6 games and was 7 of 7 in the 6th.  People who say "Oh, everyone should have known there was Big Trouble and Irreconcilable Differences after that private meeting at the start of minicamp" or who claims they believed it all along (including during the first 6 games) are exercising revisionist history at its finest.

 

 

Edited July 29 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 7/28/2024 at 11:05 AM, Billl said:

It is funny how you can look at this debate with the benefit of hindsight and see that one side was 100% validated, yet those who took the other side can still refuse to acknowledge that they were wrong.  The Bills are paying $31,000,000 for the best player to ever share a locker room with Allen to play for the Texans.  It doesn’t get any more definitive than that.

 

What?  It's not unknown for players or players and coaches to get into it on the sidelines, or in private meetings for that matter, and whether both sides move on or it turns out to be symptomatic of larger problems, is a conclusion reached in hindsight and typically without much actual insider knowledge.

Your boy Kelce hit Andy Reid on the sidelines during the Superbowl.  Kelce said it was unacceptable and Reid said it just shows Kelce's desire to win so nominally it's all worked out. I admire Kelce's play on the field but if the Chiefs move on from him after this coming season rather than pay a $19.5M roster bonus and this and that other tidbit rumors of conflict emerge, are we all supposed to come on your board (if you have one) and yap about how everyone should have seen it coming, those who took the position that it all got worked out and it's NBD are "wrong" and those who said "maybe there's trouble brewing with Kelce as he's still demanding playing time and target share" are "100% validated"?

 

The facts are, the Bills took on an extra dead cap hit this year and forwent Diggs services this season, in exchange for a 2025 2nd round pick that they hope will be high.  They got #1 WR production out of Diggs for the first 6 games (103 ypg) and #3-type production (45 ypg) the last 7 games. 

Anything else is surmise and conjucture, period.  But the NFL is generally recognized to be all about "what have you done for me lately?".  While 11 targets and 103 ypg are proportionate, 8 targets is a lot of target share for only 45 ypg unless the guy is playing almost exclusively from the slot.

 

It seems plausible that there may have been factors beyond fall off in performance which led the Bills to trade Diggs, but it's also factual that the Diggs we saw during the last 7 games of the season and during the playoffs last year was not performing as "the best player to ever share a locker room with Allen".  He wasn't even the most productive contributor on the field those 7 games: Shakir had 2 100-yd games, 3.4 targets per game and 52 ypg; Kincaid had 5.4 targets per game and 40.4 ypg.  And, your team's own Sneed shot down the notion that Diggs was just being super-tightly doubled and taken away "we didn't even double him"

 

Bottom line, I think there's an awful lot of smoke about Diggs for there to have been no fire, but I also think anyone who tells us that as of the Giants game, when the Bills were 4-2 and Diggs was averaging 11 targets and 103 ypg, they correctly predicted that Diggs was more trouble than he was worth, that the mini-camp meeting showed it, and that he'd be off the team in 2024 one way or another, is Full of Beans (and hindsight).

If we're predicting, I'd predict that Diggs will come out the gate hot for the Texans and it will look as though they got their money's worth and more, but we'll see what he looks like at the end of the season/playoffs

Edited July 29 by Beck Water

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'll believe that last when I see it.  The bit about "human psychology being very predictable" is likely to prove ironic.

 

You can believe I'm not being honest if you choose.  Why would you think I care what you believe?  You're attaching outsize importance to yourself here, though; why would I go around looking for "opportunities to correct you"?   Bit egocentric, woudn't you think?

 

IMO, a "blow up" during training camp is different than a private meeting in a coach's office before the start of minicamp, so to me, if there were a training camp blowup I missed or had forgotten about, that would be a significant difference.  YMMV, whatev's 

Either way, it's pretty clear by all accounts that tension between Josh and Diggs dated to the previous season and preceded the Bengals playoff loss where he was publicly observed gesticulating and yelling at Allen while Allen ignored him.   
 

The hope at this time last season was that any issues between Allen and Diggs had been resolved or at least patched up effectively.  The results early in the season bore this out: the Bills were 4-2 and Diggs had >100 yds receiving in 5 of those 6 games and was 7 of 7 in the 6th.  People who say "Oh, everyone should have known there was Big Trouble and Irreconcilable Differences after that private meeting at the start of minicamp" or who claims they believed it all along (including during the first 6 games) are exercising revisionist history at its finest.

 

 

It was very apparent they had not patched things up and were likely headed for a breakup

 

This is settled law. No need to relitigate

[Beck Water]

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It was very apparent they had not patched things up and were likely headed for a breakup

 

It was very apparent to you, during the first 6 weeks of last season?

 

You got receipts on that?  Because I sure don't remember anyone here standing up and opining *at that point in time*.

 

On 7/28/2024 at 10:17 AM, oldmanfan said:

Diggs is gone.  And I seriously doubt he’d be gone if Josh had not been OK with the move.  

 

I don't think anyone would argue that.

Edited July 29 by Beck Water

[Bill from NYC]

4 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

The facts are, the Bills took on an extra dead cap hit this year and forwent Diggs services this season, in exchange for a 2025 2nd round pick that they hope will be high.  They got #1 WR production out of Diggs for the first 6 games (103 ypg) and #3-type production (45 ypg) the last 7 games. 
 

Let's not forget the other draft picks that we had to throw in to get rid of him.

 

>>>The Buffalo Bills traded four-time Pro Bowl wide receiver Stefon Diggs to the Houston Texans for draft pick compensation Wednesday. The Bills received a 2025 second-round pick (via the Minnesota Vikings) in exchange for Diggs, a 2024 sixth-round pick (No. 189 overall) and a 2025 fifth-round selection.<<<

[Beck Water]

7 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

Let's not forget the other draft picks that we had to throw in to get rid of him.

 

>>>The Buffalo Bills traded four-time Pro Bowl wide receiver Stefon Diggs to the Houston Texans for draft pick compensation Wednesday. The Bills received a 2025 second-round pick (via the Minnesota Vikings) in exchange for Diggs, a 2024 sixth-round pick (No. 189 overall) and a 2025 fifth-round selection.<<<

 

 Fair. 

Though on the draft pick point scale I found, a top-10 Rd 2 pick is 480 to 580 points, Pick 189 is 16.8 points, and a 5th round selection of similar draft position is 29.6.  So if the Bills manage to be similarly good this season, it's kind of like getting 10 cents back on the dollar; not nothing, but not much of a throw-in either.

[Bill from NYC]

22 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

 Fair. 

Though on the draft pick point scale I found, a top-10 Rd 2 pick is 480 to 580 points, Pick 189 is 16.8 points, and a 5th round selection of similar draft position is 29.6.  So if the Bills manage to be similarly good this season, it's kind of like getting 10 cents back on the dollar; not nothing, but not much of a throw-in either.

Oh yeah, I know that most picks like this tend to be inconsequential, however; we could both name some very good players that were picked in later rounds.

 

My comment was only meant to illustrate that the Bills seemed to really want to get rid of Diggs, not that I blame them mind you.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

It was very apparent to you, during the first 6 weeks of last season?

 

You got receipts on that?  Because I sure don't remember anyone here standing up and opining *at that point in time*.

 

sure do

 

On 6/13/2023 at 3:19 PM, GoBills808 said:

Based on this is how you force your way out. Not showing up. Pumping up other teams' QBs while publicly calling yours out. It's over imo.

 

[Toyo321]

On 7/29/2024 at 10:21 AM, Spiderweb said:

Have we had enough yet?

My god let it all go, who cares about him anymore.  This guy is gone, sayonara, vamanos, au revoir, adio's.

He is out of here and good riddance. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 31 by Toyo321