The Allen-Diggs Relationship in Decline?

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Diggs was targeted 10 times during the Bengals playoff loss.  He had 4 receptions.
 

Someone here (I forget who) had some inside info that towards the end of the season but well before the Bengals game, Diggs and Allen were "on the outs", that Diggs would go after Allen in the locker room for perceived mistakes or miscues (not targeting him when he felt he was open, not throwing where he expected the ball to be thrown, etc) to the point where others were uncomfortable, and that by the end of the season Diggs and Allen were barely talking to each other.

The Bengals game didn't have the look of a new development

 

It was obvious even from just tv angles tbh

 

First offensive series of the Bengals game Allen overthrew diggs on third down and he did that windmill arm thing running down the field after the play was well over...dude was just tedious

[Billy Claude]

As early as 2021 Isaiah McKenzie said it was part of his job to calm Diggs down. Basically the solution isn't always to give you the ball more.

 

He then said without being asked "it's not like he's yelling at Josh or the coaches or something like that".  Why would McKenzie make a specific statement like that and who else would Diggs be yelling at if not Allen or the coaches?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYRNREa-Rqk&ab_channel=GoLong

 

Then in 2023, Mckenzie said that 90% of the time you just let Diggs talk but 10% of the time he has to tell Diggs "you're tripping, you can't say something like that." That's got to be pretty exhausting for all involved. At some point you just can't handle a coworker like that even if they are productive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5fSQirmki8&ab_channel=GoLong

 

My guess is that McDermott sat down with Diggs before mandatory minicamp in 2023 and told him he couldn't continue to behave that way to Allen and the coaches and Diggs blew up. If you have ever been a manager you know how these interviews usually go, especially with someone you can't really fire. Hence, Allen's statement that the issue with Diggs wasn't football related in the very narrow sense that it wasn't about Digg's play on the field.

 

Edited July 26 by Billy Claude

[billieve420]

14 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

As early as 2021 Isaiah McKenzie said it was part of his job to calm Diggs down. Basically the solution isn't always to give you the ball more.

 

He then said without being asked "it's not like he's yelling at Josh or the coaches or something like that".  Why would McKenzie make a specific statement like that and who else would Diggs be yelling at if not Allen or the coaches?

 

Then in 2023, Mckenzie said that 90% of the time you just let Diggs talk but 10% of the time he has to tell Diggs "you're tripping, you can't say something like that." That's got to be pretty exhausting for all involved. At some point you just can't handle a coworker like that even if they are productive.

 

These are from a couple of interviews on Go Long with Tyler Dunne.

 

My guess is that McDermott sat down with Diggs before mandatory minicamp in 2023 and told him he couldn't continue to behave that way to Allen and the coaches and Diggs blew up. If you have ever been a manager you know how these interviews usually go, especially with someone you can't really fire. Hence, Allen's statement that the issue with Diggs that it wasn't football related.

 

 I think it had something to do with OTAs and Diggs preferring to work out on his own versus attending voluntary workouts. There was some disconnect between McDermott and Diggs. However, yes dealing with someone who is temperamental can become draining for everyone around. 

[Billy Claude]

3 hours ago, billieve420 said:

 I think it had something to do with OTAs and Diggs preferring to work out on his own versus attending voluntary workouts. There was some disconnect between McDermott and Diggs. However, yes dealing with someone who is temperamental can become draining for everyone around. 

 

I don't think missing OTAs are a regarded as a big deal especially for veterans. After all they are optional. 

 

LOL at everybody jumping on the OP for saying that there might be issues.

Edited July 26 by Billy Claude

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

I'm bumping this to gloat a bit.  

 

I got beat up for this thread: told the thread was "garbage," seeing "drama that wasn't there," and so on.  

 

Apologies aren't necessary, but I am open to redemptive cash donations.  🙂

 

7 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I don't need any answers anymore.  Stef was a passionate competitor who unfortunately allowed his Viking diva personality to rear it's ugly head again. The history books will write that both players needed each other in the advancement of their prospective careers.  Josh will be better off with a diva-less group of wrs who "all get to eat".

 

I warned you all...

 

Mr. WEO

Community Member

 44.8k

Posted December 21, 2022

threw his helmet when not getting the targets?  

 

 

never happened...

 

[Beck Water]

7 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

As early as 2021 Isaiah McKenzie said it was part of his job to calm Diggs down. Basically the solution isn't always to give you the ball more.

 

He then said without being asked "it's not like he's yelling at Josh or the coaches or something like that".  Why would McKenzie make a specific statement like that and who else would Diggs be yelling at if not Allen or the coaches?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYRNREa-Rqk&ab_channel=GoLong

 

Then in 2023, Mckenzie said that 90% of the time you just let Diggs talk but 10% of the time he has to tell Diggs "you're tripping, you can't say something like that." That's got to be pretty exhausting for all involved. At some point you just can't handle a coworker like that even if they are productive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5fSQirmki8&ab_channel=GoLong

 

My guess is that McDermott sat down with Diggs before mandatory minicamp in 2023 and told him he couldn't continue to behave that way to Allen and the coaches and Diggs blew up. If you have ever been a manager you know how these interviews usually go, especially with someone you can't really fire. Hence, Allen's statement that the issue with Diggs wasn't football related in the very narrow sense that it wasn't about Digg's play on the field.

 

 

I think that's a reasonable take.  I could point out a few more incidents, but Why?  The guy's gone now.

 

 

Another couple takes, where you ask "why would he say that if there wasn't someone else behaving differently?"

-last year OTAs, Allen kept talking about Sherfield and saying "He does whatever is asked of him.  He never complains."  He said that repeatedly thru minicamp and OTAs.  There's possibly a bit of unsaid there as in "in contrast to ......who does complain when certain things are asked of him"

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/video/josh-allen-acting-chops-chemistry-with-the-offense-the-alpha-dog-wrs

-In this Bills interview, 10:36 in, Allen and the interview duo are talking about TE and specifically Dalton Kincaid.  He talks about his catch radius, his athleticism.  But he emphasizes "he does things the right way" He also mentions Khalil Shakir "I love talking about how they play the game".  Then he mentions Kincaid's extra-effort blocking which enabled a couple TDs including Josh vs. Pittsburgh in the playoff "he plays the game the right way, and it's so refreshing"  Again, there's possiby a bit of unsaid there "as opposed to..... (who was maybe not refreshing in some aspects)

 

I think it's notable that the two players who spoke out for Diggs publicly about him being a good teammate, Rasul Douglas and Dion Dawkins, are not offensive skill players who were depending on Diggs to run clearing routes  or  block for them downfield at times, and who weren't in skill position meeting rooms with Diggs week in and week out.

 

Edited July 26 by Beck Water

[ddaryl]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I warned you all...

 

Mr. WEO

Community Member

 44.8k

Posted December 21, 2022

threw his helmet when not getting the targets?  

 

 

never happened...

 

After the 1st couple of seasons I thought it was just a Vikings thing.... but obviously its ugly head reared again

[Billl]

9 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

It was obvious even from just tv angles tbh

 

First offensive series of the Bengals game Allen overthrew diggs on third down and he did that windmill arm thing running down the field after the play was well over...dude was just tedious

He did that stuff all the time.  It finally hit critical mass during the Bengals game when he was just undressing Allen on the sidelines, and Josh just sat there and didn’t respond.  I’m not generally one who thinks that addition by subtraction is a real thing when it comes to superstars, but there is a case to be made that this could be a rare exception.

 

What surprises me is that Josh never grabbed him by the throat in the locker room and threatened to kick his ass if he ever pulled a stunt like that again.  Maybe even more surprising is that Spencer Brown or Dion Dawkins didn’t either.  I can’t even imagine what would happen if a WR tried that with Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc.  

[GunnerBill]

10 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

One last curiosity I have now that we know Allen and Steph's relationship broke down. Is the prevailing thought that this started during the Bengals game? If so, was it really about the not getting targeted and Steph yelling or is it possible the Allen/break up story is in fact true? I just have a hard time believing Steph doesn't get targeted and then just goes off on Allen and that is the whole story. It seems more plausible he was already pissed at Allen prior to the game and the performance and the lack of targets tipped the scales. I say this because none of Diggs teammates have ever spoken negatively or even anything but glowingly about him. I have to think if he was just a straight up a hole to Josh that wouldn't be the case. Always wanted the answer on this one and not sure if we will ever get it. 

 

Nah it pre-dated the Bengals. The Bengals game was in a period where they were barely speaking. 

 

One of the reasons I think you still see ex team mates speak relatively warmly of Stef is from what I was told it was not a split the locker room situation or anything like that. Most of their teammates didn't (and possibly still don't) know what it was that caused the fall out. I was told Dawson Knox knew but a lot of the others were in the dark. They just know somewhere in the middle of that season the relationship went sideways. Most of the coaches didn't know why either. I presume Sean and Brandon did but it wasn't something that was widely known. My suspicion (and I repeat this bit is speculation on my part and not based on anything anyone told me) is that the fallout did not originate on the football field. I think it was something off field that then spilled over onto the field.

[Beck Water]

50 minutes ago, Billl said:

What surprises me is that Josh never grabbed him by the throat in the locker room and threatened to kick his ass if he ever pulled a stunt like that again.  Maybe even more surprising is that Spencer Brown or Dion Dawkins didn’t either.  I can’t even imagine what would happen if a WR tried that with Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc.  

 

That's not the kind of guy Allen is, to either of those suggestions

[Coach Tuesday]

9 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

That's not the kind of guy Allen is, to either of those suggestions

 

Maybe it should be.

[billieve420]

9 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

 

I don't think missing OTAs are a regarded as a big deal especially for veterans. After all they are optional. 

 

LOL at everybody jumping on the OP for saying that there might be issues.

 

Yeah they are supposed to be "voluntary" but some coaches would prefer players to be there and I think that rubbed Diggs the wrong way. Then the whole thing hit the fan come mandatory minicamp with McDermott being "concerned" when Diggs was absent on Day 1 of mandatory minicamp. However, it came out later that McDermott had sent Diggs home. McDermott botched the whole situation from what I could tell.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-stefon-diggs-sean-mcdermott-mandatory-minicamp-concerned-josh-allen-von-miller

[NoHuddleKelly12]

3 minutes ago, Billl said:

He did that stuff all the time.  It finally hit critical mass during the Bengals game when he was just undressing Allen on the sidelines, and Josh just sat there and didn’t respond.  I’m not generally one who thinks that addition by subtraction is a real thing when it comes to superstars, but there is a case to be made that this could be a rare exception.

 

What surprises me is that Josh never grabbed him by the throat in the locker room and threatened to kick his ass if he ever pulled a stunt like that again.  Maybe even more surprising is that Spencer Brown or Dion Dawkins didn’t either.  I can’t even imagine what would happen if a WR tried that with Brady, Rodgers, Manning, etc.  

we actually don’t know what happened behind closed doors—Allen very well may have let his feelings be known quite plainly away from prying 👀 🤷‍♂️.

[JerseyBills]

10 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

As early as 2021 Isaiah McKenzie said it was part of his job to calm Diggs down. Basically the solution isn't always to give you the ball more.

 

He then said without being asked "it's not like he's yelling at Josh or the coaches or something like that".  Why would McKenzie make a specific statement like that and who else would Diggs be yelling at if not Allen or the coaches?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYRNREa-Rqk&ab_channel=GoLong

 

Then in 2023, Mckenzie said that 90% of the time you just let Diggs talk but 10% of the time he has to tell Diggs "you're tripping, you can't say something like that." That's got to be pretty exhausting for all involved. At some point you just can't handle a coworker like that even if they are productive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5fSQirmki8&ab_channel=GoLong

 

My guess is that McDermott sat down with Diggs before mandatory minicamp in 2023 and told him he couldn't continue to behave that way to Allen and the coaches and Diggs blew up. If you have ever been a manager you know how these interviews usually go, especially with someone you can't really fire. Hence, Allen's statement that the issue with Diggs wasn't football related in the very narrow sense that it wasn't about Digg's play on the field.

 

Pretty obvious there was internal issues, especially as a captain,  can't be acting like that. Eating 30+ mil n a future 2nd it's clear he became to big a distraction for this culture. 

Also with emergence of Shakir,Kincaid and Cook, they finally pulled the trigger. 

[Billy Claude]

29 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

 

Yeah they are supposed to be "voluntary" but some coaches would prefer players to be there and I think that rubbed Diggs the wrong way. Then the whole thing hit the fan come mandatory minicamp with McDermott being "concerned" when Diggs was absent on Day 1 of mandatory minicamp. However, it came out later that McDermott had sent Diggs home. McDermott botched the whole situation from what I could tell.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/bills/news/buffalo-bills-stefon-diggs-sean-mcdermott-mandatory-minicamp-concerned-josh-allen-von-miller

 

I feel the the reason for the concern about Diggs missing  OTAs was that it was combined with other signs of Diggs unhappiness with the Bills.   If it wasn't for that, missing the OTAs would have been a disappointment but otherwise not have been a big deal.  

 

For example, Rasul Douglas missed OTAs this year (as well as previous years in Green Bay) and there does not seem to be a lot of concern.

 

[billieve420]

13 minutes ago, Billy Claude said:

 

I feel the the reason for the concern about Diggs missing  OTAs was that it was combined with other signs of Diggs unhappiness with the Bills.   If it wasn't for that, missing the OTAs would have been a disappointment but otherwise not have been a big deal.  

 

For example, Rasul Douglas missed OTAs this year (as well as previous years in Green Bay) and there does not seem to be a lot of concern.

 

 

That could be true maybe Diggs wanted to be traded and was told something different than what he had thought.

 

Normally when guys miss voluntary OTAs but I am sure they are giving the coaching staff the heads up and reasons why like when Allen missed one to participate in Golf tourney. Normally not an issue but for a captain like Diggs have to believe McDermott wants those guys setting the examples and if they can't make them all. I believe Diggs wanted to work on his own and just another sore point between him and team.

Edited July 26 by billieve420

[Mat68]

This may or may not be a story in 5 years.  I think Allen’s point in his career he earned a bigger leadership role.  The dynamic with Diggs is more a place of brothers and equals.  Idk if that relationship would be sustainable with Allen having a larger say than Diggs in how he wants routes and plays he likes.  They did great things together and in a few years this is likely water under a bridge.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

18 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

This may or may not be a story in 5 years.  I think Allen’s point in his career he earned a bigger leadership role.  The dynamic with Diggs is more a place of brothers and equals.  Idk if that relationship would be sustainable with Allen having a larger say than Diggs in how he wants routes and plays he likes.  They did great things together and in a few years this is likely water under a bridge.  

This is very reasonable, makes sense.  Seems like it was a matter of time if Allen continued to progress as a leader, more so this year with a substantially younger roster.

[Mat68]

2 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

This is very reasonable, makes sense.  Seems like it was a matter of time if Allen continued to progress as a leader, more so this year with a substantially younger roster.

Seemed like a natural progression for Allen.  Can’t be the leader Allen needs to be by also deferring to Diggs at the same time.  I do not think it was malicious but just a product of their success and competitiveness.  Diggs wants and earned a voice on offense but the operation will probably be better with just Allen from a players perspective. 

[JP51]

44 minutes ago, Mat68 said:

Seemed like a natural progression for Allen.  Can’t be the leader Allen needs to be by also deferring to Diggs at the same time.  I do not think it was malicious but just a product of their success and competitiveness.  Diggs wants and earned a voice on offense but the operation will probably be better with just Allen from a players perspective. 

totally agree. I think he tried hard to keep Diggs happy until he tried so hard it negatively effected his play