Pokebball Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: You cannot scientifically prove or disprove when human life begins because you cannot apply the scientific method to the question. What experiments would you design? What controls? What data would you gather? About 40 peer reviewed articles in different journals. An NIH New Investigator award for research in sperm-egg fusion. Director of clinical IVF labs for over 49 years. By the way some of your references were textbooks. They aren’t peer reviewed. Congrats on your work. Do you acknowledge that other medical professionals and scientists hold opinions different than yours? What do you think of that? Your and theirs can't both be "facts", as you have labeled yours? I'd also be interested in your opinion as to when you hypothesize that human life begins. We certainly know that it begins, right? We certainly know that it develops along it's way. We know premies are born as early as 21 weeks, so human life began by then. Curious, knowing what you know, and with your education and background, when do you think life begins? 7 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: yes, I thought it likely you are a "Christian nationalist" most of whom are from reformed churches. Just a guess. But there exist fundamentalist Catholics too. keep it up with the appeal to authority fallacy tho. It's very effective🤣. So given your intimate knowledge of the thoughts of so many reproductive scientists, what percentage do you estimate believe life begins at conception? While you're at it, please give your scientific understanding of the meaning of life... Man you're snarky! Based on the reading I've done, fully acknowledging confirmation bias on my part, there appears to be a very strong argument that the point in time that a human life begins is at conception. It's all development after that event. Let's leave the meaning of life for another day. I can recommend a dang good movie thought, if you're interested. 1
Irv Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 On 4/16/2023 at 8:35 PM, BillStime said: It's not "abortion". It's "Women's Reproductive Rights". You can decide what classifies as a "woman". Sincerely, The Democrats What a mess. 1
oldmanfan Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 5 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Congrats on your work. Do you acknowledge that other medical professionals and scientists hold opinions different than yours? What do you think of that? Your and theirs can't both be "facts", as you have labeled yours? I'd also be interested in your opinion as to when you hypothesize that human life begins. We certainly know that it begins, right? We certainly know that it develops along it's way. We know premies are born as early as 21 weeks, so human life began by then. Curious, knowing what you know, and with your education and background, when do you think life begins? Man you're snarky! Based on the reading I've done, fully acknowledging confirmation bias on my part, there appears to be a very strong argument that the point in time that a human life begins is at conception. It's all development after that event. Let's leave the meaning of life for another day. I can recommend a dang good movie thought, if you're interested. Different opinions, yes. But they don’t have expertise in my area. Just like I can have an opinion on a question in physics but it would not be as informed as a physicist’s. And why I would defer to him if her. My view on when human life begins? It is a philosophical question. Because we are eutherian mammals I think a logical place to start considering the question us implantation. But because twinning can occur until the primitive streak stage a unique entity doesn’t really occur till then. Then you get into when formation of maternal/fetal circulation is established, neural activity, ability to exist outside the mother, and so on. I take the view that it is a continuum. 11 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Congrats on your work. Do you acknowledge that other medical professionals and scientists hold opinions different than yours? What do you think of that? Your and theirs can't both be "facts", as you have labeled yours? I'd also be interested in your opinion as to when you hypothesize that human life begins. We certainly know that it begins, right? We certainly know that it develops along it's way. We know premies are born as early as 21 weeks, so human life began by then. Curious, knowing what you know, and with your education and background, when do you think life begins? Man you're snarky! Based on the reading I've done, fully acknowledging confirmation bias on my part, there appears to be a very strong argument that the point in time that a human life begins is at conception. It's all development after that event. Let's leave the meaning of life for another day. I can recommend a dang good movie thought, if you're interested. As I have described there is no defined moment of conception. A real problem with society today is the refusal to accept facts and to have them help form opinion. 1 1
Pokebball Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: Different opinions, yes. But they don’t have expertise in my area. Just like I can have an opinion on a question in physics but it would not be as informed as a physicist’s. And why I would defer to him if her. My view on when human life begins? It is a philosophical question. Because we are eutherian mammals I think a logical place to start considering the question us implantation. But because twinning can occur until the primitive streak stage a unique entity doesn’t really occur till then. Then you get into when formation of maternal/fetal circulation is established, neural activity, ability to exist outside the mother, and so on. I take the view that it is a continuum. As I have described there is no defined moment of conception. A real problem with society today is the refusal to accept facts and to have them help form opinion. Are you pro life or pro choice? And if pro-choice, all the way up to birth? Given your opinion that the beginning of life is a continuum, when does that continuum end? What's the latest point, generally? I'm thinking of the 21 week premie; certainly by then, right? Edited May 10, 2023 by Pokebball
Joe Ferguson forever Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Let's leave the meaning of life for another day. the meaning of life is implicit in the question of when life begins. Don't ya think? but I'm sure a movie will settle the issue... Edited May 10, 2023 by redtail hawk
oldmanfan Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Are you pro life or pro choice? And if pro-choice, all the way up to birth? I don’t use the labels you use because the issue is not binary; it is more complex. I am not for abortion as a means of convenient birth control. I am for more readily available contraception and education of our youth on the seriousness of entering into sexual relationships and the use of contraceptives. I am for making adoption laws more uniform such that it is a more reasonable option for those with unintended pregnancies (although adopted kids can then have issues which are largely ignored). I do not endorse termination up to birth, certainly not once viability outside the uterus is possible. I endorse that medical decisions be made by a patient and physician without interference. I’ll end my contribution here. Edited May 10, 2023 by oldmanfan 4
Pokebball Posted May 10, 2023 Posted May 10, 2023 (edited) 37 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: the meaning of life is implicit in the question of when life begins. Don't ya think? but I'm sure a movie will settle the issue... Perhaps. Many don't believe we have a meaning. For me, I believe we're both temporal and spiritual. I think the implicit nature you refer to is when are those of us that believe endowed with a soul. All atheisits have, and perhaps agnostics as well, is science. So as I have inferred, I think there is a point where life begins for both. I do think scientifically, life begins at conception. 31 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: I don’t use the labels you use because the issue is not binary; it is more complex. I am not for abortion as a means of convenient birth control. I am for more readily available contraception and education of our youth on the seriousness of entering into sexual relationships and the use of contraceptives. I am for making adoption laws more uniform such that it is a more reasonable option for those with unintended pregnancies (although adopted kids can then have issues which are largely ignored). I do not endorse termination up to birth, certainly not once viability outside the uterus is possible. I endorse that medical decisions be made by a patient and physician without interference. I’ll end my contribution here. Thanks for the context Edited May 10, 2023 by Pokebball
ComradeKayAdams Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 11 hours ago, Pokebball said: It really wasn't a blowout. The smallest number of vote swings that would have changed the results was something like 43,000, flipping the EC in Arizona, Wisconsin and Georgia, I believe. Numerous polls suggest if the laptop story wasn't suppressed by those that suppressed it, Trump would have won. And as context, I didn't vote for Trump. Pokeyballs, You misunderstood my previous posts in this thread. When I said “blowout,” I wasn’t referring to the 2020 election. I was making a prediction for the 2024 presidential election. You are welcome to challenge that prediction or my definition of an “electoral college blowout.” It’s an opinion over which I am not going to get overly defensive. I suppose a sudden decline in the economy or in Biden’s health could very well change the overall dynamics of the election. I think my main contention here is a long-term one: the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision will lead to the eventual demise of the GOP as we currently know it, necessitating one of those generational political realignments in American history like the Southern strategy of the 1960’s. The GOP alliance between libertarians and Christian nationalists is untenable because their culture war has been lost, and poll numbers from the abortion debate best exemplify this reality. Watching Republicans fumble around with their defense of the various red state abortion trigger laws has been both embarrassing and infuriating to all rational Americans. 7 hours ago, redtail hawk said: again, I hope you are correct. re points 2 and 3 I worry about the upper midwestern states: MI, WI, MN. NH and Georgia, especially look good to me. Who would have ever predicted a Jew and a Black Senator from Ga? The south may yet rise again! And Bernie rocks. But he would have lost to trump so it was the right choice. CHEERS to Bernie rocking! JEERS to thinking he would have lost to Trump. My powerful rebuttal: 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 14 hours ago, Pokebball said: Perhaps. Many don't believe we have a meaning. For me, I believe we're both temporal and spiritual. I think the implicit nature you refer to is when are those of us that believe endowed with a soul. All atheisits have, and perhaps agnostics as well, is science. So as I have inferred, I think there is a point where life begins for both. I do think scientifically, life begins at concept perhaps??? So people who don't believe there is a soul can just f off? Who cares what they think. all knowing pokey brain's opinion is what matters and he should control pregnant women's bodies? you're reasoning is ridiculous. I'm not sure you should control your own body. keep your beliefs out of our lives. Edited May 11, 2023 by redtail hawk
Tommy Callahan Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 7 hours ago, ComradeKayAdams said: Pokeyballs, You misunderstood my previous posts in this thread. When I said “blowout,” I wasn’t referring to the 2020 election. I was making a prediction for the 2024 presidential election. You are welcome to challenge that prediction or my definition of an “electoral college blowout.” It’s an opinion over which I am not going to get overly defensive. I suppose a sudden decline in the economy or in Biden’s health could very well change the overall dynamics of the election. I think my main contention here is a long-term one: the Supreme Court’s Dobbs decision will lead to the eventual demise of the GOP as we currently know it, necessitating one of those generational political realignments in American history like the Southern strategy of the 1960’s. The GOP alliance between libertarians and Christian nationalists is untenable because their culture war has been lost, and poll numbers from the abortion debate best exemplify this reality. Watching Republicans fumble around with their defense of the various red state abortion trigger laws has been both embarrassing and infuriating to all rational Americans. CHEERS to Bernie rocking! JEERS to thinking he would have lost to Trump. My powerful rebuttal: its the economy silly, especially family and personal economies. they are hurting under this Biden disaster. Gonna be hard to get people struggling to stay afloat, that abortion or some other wedge issue is more important. Its kinda why you see the left focusing on the youth vote as many of them are still being provided for and have not felt the impact of this crap economy. BTW. watching repubs try to ban abortion is silly, about as silly as the lefties talking about banning guns. I 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 1 hour ago, Chris farley said: BTW. watching repubs try to ban abortion is silly, about as silly as the lefties talking about banning guns. sure. totally the same....
Tommy Callahan Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 12 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: sure. totally the same.... Both are very complex issues that involve complex solutions. Banning or free for all is not the solution but what is parroted by the loudest voices. And banning them would work about as good as banning pot back in the day. didn't really work and has secondary consequences. 1
Pokebball Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 9 hours ago, redtail hawk said: perhaps??? So people who don't believe there is a soul can just f off? Who cares what they think. all knowing pokey brain's opinion is what matters and he should control pregnant women's bodies? you're reasoning is ridiculous. I'm not sure you should control your own body. keep your beliefs out of our lives. You seem to be arguing for religion, philosophy and faith a lot on the abortion issue. Unlike you though, I give you the right and freedom to express your thoughts and beliefs. Cancel on brotha! 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Pokebball said: You seem to be arguing for religion, philosophy and faith a lot on the abortion issue. Unlike you though, I give you the right and freedom to express your thoughts and beliefs. Cancel on brotha! I will...religious beliefs have no place in the laws of our democracy. They are arbitrary and personal, not a basis for policy. Philosophy is amazing and profound when studied and explored. Science is not philosophy. You seem to be unable to grasp this. You can't redefine science. Our esteemed reproductive expert said it better than I and I actually agree fully with his point of view. But you know better and can decide for us all...Express your beliefs. Just don't demand that everyone else believe the same. Edited May 11, 2023 by redtail hawk 1
Pokebball Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 38 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: I will...religious beliefs have no place in the laws of our democracy. They are arbitrary and personal, not a basis for policy. Philosophy is amazing and profound when studied and explored. Science is not philosophy. You seem to be unable to grasp this. You can't redefine science. Our esteemed reproductive expert said it better than I and I actually agree fully with his point of view. But you know better and can decide for us all...Express your beliefs. Just don't demand that everyone else believe the same. Yessir. I'll keep my mouth shut just for you But please don't forget, you da man that brought up religion and philosophy in our discussion. Cancel on brotha! 1
T master Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 22 hours ago, BillStime said: So I can put you down as YES for mandatory vasectomies for males puberty on up? Just WTF does that have to do with anything i said ?? 1
BillStime Posted May 11, 2023 Author Posted May 11, 2023 1 minute ago, T master said: Just WTF does that have to do with anything i said ?? Right over your head 2
T master Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 22 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said: holy shite use some punctuation. The first run-on sentence is so long and broken I cant even tell what you are saying. Facts are American young people are getting pregnant and having abortions way less than previous generations. So much for the irresponsibility angle I'm not here which you can tell to pass a english exam sorry to disappoint you . I will be the first to tell you i hated & sucked at english class & truly don't care as you can see . That being said i hope this reply will better suits you . Even though there may be less people getting pregnant there are still those that are irresponsible when it comes to sex & i'm sure seeing as you didn't post any links that there may be more than we know . Plus you can probably add to that the increase in same sex relationships & those that are male thinking they are female and their preferences . So i would think there are other contributing factors to the decline . 22 hours ago, redtail hawk said: I'll answer for him: only for non whites. Hey another DS joins the party . 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted May 11, 2023 Posted May 11, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Pokebball said: Yessir. I'll keep my mouth shut just for you But please don't forget, you da man that brought up religion and philosophy in our discussion. Cancel on brotha! you are the one cancelling the impregnated rights. keep your mouth open. It shows who you are... 1 hour ago, T master said: I'm not here which you can tell to pass a english exam good thing you're apparently already a US citizen. 1 hour ago, BillStime said: Right over your head Homerun...flip the bat and tip the cap. and another eyeroll from Chris Farley. It's kinda like "when you can't do, teach" but weaker... Edited May 11, 2023 by redtail hawk 1 2
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