Doc Posted April 11 Posted April 11 1 minute ago, daz28 said: World politics can have an effect on everyone. Try again. If anything, the argument should be that someone(depending on the person) birthing a child could have MUCH more effect on their lives, than if it were aborted. You'd think the group that hates poor people from stealing their taxes would understand that. That's dependent on the topic. I can assure you that the vast majority of non-Muslim protestors of Isreal have never met a Gazan in their life and the same goes for those who support Ukraine/Ukrainian. Yet it still matters to them.
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 2 minutes ago, Commsvet11 said: Well since you just declared having organs doesn’t make you a human being perhaps you should define it n your view what does make a human being and what age makes one a human being because that’s big part of the argument so let’s have answers for those. I did and gladly will, but I wish you'd stop dodging questions yourself. Look back at previous SCOTUS discussion on the topic. It's about when the fetus can live outside the body on its own. All our current non-secular SCOTUS is doing is mucking up everything that people already agreed upon in the past, trying to turn back the clock. Their inconsistency and punting on everything is maddening. Abortion? States rights. Insurrection Clause? Not states rights. Total immunity? self-executing?? They're a complete clown show.
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 8 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Biologists hold a contrary opinion. Viability isn't a sound argument because a child isn't viable right after birth, or even later in life. When does human life begin? When are you OK with terminating a human life? How is a baby not viable after birth?????? Viable doesn't mean it can care for itself, but rather can sustain itself without further immediate medical care. When does life begin? I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that the government would say when you were born. There's a time on your birth certificate. You then start celebrating birthdays accordingly. How many fetuses did you claim on your taxes as dependents. How many were counted on the census? Stop trying to roll it back with the same silly arguments. 1
ChiGoose Posted April 11 Posted April 11 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: World politics can have an effect on everyone. Try again. If anything, the argument should be that someone(depending on the person) birthing a child could have MUCH more effect on their lives, than if it were aborted. You'd think the group that hates poor people from stealing their taxes would understand that. Don’t forget that conservatives seem incapable or unwilling of considering second and third order effects. Imagine if abortion was banned completely in the US. You would see a black market of unregulated and likely very unsafe abortion options available to the desperate. Now imagine you or someone you love is pregnant. Everything is going well but then suddenly, it’s a miscarriage. How does the doctor know that it wasn’t the result of a back alley abortion? How does law enforcement know? The only way is to investigate. Better yet, they can follow in the steps of Missouri and use data from things like period tracking apps to keep tabs on women of child bearing age. A surveillance state for women. What about someone who is pregnant but is diagnosed with cancer? Well, if their life isn’t immediately in danger, they’ll be given no choice but to let the cancer grow until it’s life threatening instead having the option to choose their future. The world in which they get their way is a totalitarian nightmare but they don’t believe or understand it because they still can’t grasp simple second order effects like fetal personhood requiring banning IVF. 1
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 7 minutes ago, Doc said: That's dependent on the topic. I can assure you that the vast majority of non-Muslim protestors of Isreal have never met a Gazan in their life and the same goes for those who support Ukraine/Ukrainian. Yet it still matters to them. Did the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand have an effect on anyone? It was just Serbia, right? That had more effect on the potential for who could be born than all abortions ever all put together. 3 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: Don’t forget that conservatives seem incapable or unwilling of considering second and third order effects. SOOOOO much this, but they claim it's the other side who only thinks with their feelings. LOL Like if there were a biological difference between conservatives and others, it would be the ability to think beyond step 1.
Doc Posted April 11 Posted April 11 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: Did the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand have an effect on anyone? It was just Serbia, right? That had more effect on the potential for who could be born than all abortions ever all put together. The point is people will decide what matters to them. Not what you believe should matter to them. 1
ChiGoose Posted April 11 Posted April 11 (edited) 4 minutes ago, daz28 said: . SOOOOO much this, but they claim it's the other side who only thinks with their feelings. LOL Like if there were a biological difference between conservatives and others, it would be the ability to think beyond step 1. It’s just projection on their part. Most everything is emotionally tinged on the right because if they came right out and said “we want to take your money and what you work for and give it to millionaires and billionaires,” people wouldn’t vote for it. So they stoke a culture war to scare hard-working Americans into supporting their corporate masters. Edited April 11 by ChiGoose 2
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 1 minute ago, Doc said: The point is people will decide what matters to them. ...and them legislating what matters to them, when it has no effect on them, is an affront to freedom.
Doc Posted April 11 Posted April 11 3 minutes ago, daz28 said: ...and them legislating what matters to them, when it has no effect on them, is an affront to freedom. Like I said, I support abortion. But after a certain point, it's not just an affront to freedom: it's murder. Even the law says that murdering a pregnant woman, no matter how far along she is, is double homicide.
Commsvet11 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 19 minutes ago, daz28 said: I did and gladly will, but I wish you'd stop dodging questions yourself. Look back at previous SCOTUS discussion on the topic. It's about when the fetus can live outside the body on its own. All our current non-secular SCOTUS is doing is mucking up everything that people already agreed upon in the past, trying to turn back the clock. Their inconsistency and punting on everything is maddening. Abortion? States rights. Insurrection Clause? Not states rights. Total immunity? self-executing?? They're a complete clown show. Okay so anything before 28 weeks and it is considered part of the mothers body and anything after that it’s considered two separate human beings. You can live on a state that’s population believes abortion is legal or not. You have the freedom to move or elect officials to change state law what’s the biggie?
Pokebball Posted April 11 Posted April 11 17 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: It’s just projection on their part. Most everything is emotionally tinged on the right because if they came right out and said “we want to take your money and what you work for and give it to millionaires and billionaires,” people wouldn’t vote for it. So they stoke a culture war to scare hard-working Americans into supporting their corporate masters. You have that link to the senate border bill that is sitting on Johnson's desk? If I'm mistaken, I'd like to know.
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted April 11 Posted April 11 1 hour ago, daz28 said: As I've already said, and the courts have already agreed with me a long time ago, the issue should be about viability, yet that's not good enough for the religious. You're not a human being when you're a mass of cells. Heartbeat is the silliest argument, because it is based on the old adage that the heart is something besides a muscle with valves, that circulate blood. Also keep in mind, that one party fights against access to birth control. Ironically, they're the ones that hate abortion. There's absolutely ZERO chance that a large group of them will EVER be ok with any compromise, which means this issue will NEVER end. The “viability” argument isn’t good enough for that well known group of religious whackos represented by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists either. https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/understanding-and-navigating-viability But, simple sells. 1
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 9 minutes ago, Doc said: Like I said, I support abortion. But after a certain point, it's not just an affront to freedom: it's murder. Even the law says that murdering a pregnant woman, no matter how far along she is, is double homicide. There aren't many people(if any) that support late-term abortions, but the GQP lie machine has the already nutty people thinking they're ripping out screaming babies and putting them on the guillotine. That law, like so many others, probably needs to be better worded. 1
Pokebball Posted April 11 Posted April 11 30 minutes ago, daz28 said: How is a baby not viable after birth?????? Viable doesn't mean it can care for itself, but rather can sustain itself without further immediate medical care. When does life begin? I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that the government would say when you were born. There's a time on your birth certificate. You then start celebrating birthdays accordingly. How many fetuses did you claim on your taxes as dependents. How many were counted on the census? Stop trying to roll it back with the same silly arguments. You skipped my question. Posters skipping your question bothered you earlier. Scientifically, when do you think human life begins? That is an important question in this discussion, no? And a follow up from me regarding viability, is a person that's been in a coma for a year viable?
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 13 minutes ago, Commsvet11 said: Okay so anything before 28 weeks and it is considered part of the mothers body and anything after that it’s considered two separate human beings. You can live on a state that’s population believes abortion is legal or not. You have the freedom to move or elect officials to change state law what’s the biggie? I'm fine with that term, as long as medical professionals are. No one should have to move from a state, because it's denying freedoms. You're basically calling for non-secular segregation like moving is no big deal. 2 minutes ago, Pokebball said: You skipped my question. Posters skipping your question bothered you earlier. Scientifically, when do you think human life begins? That is an important question in this discussion, no? And a follow up from me regarding viability, is a person that's been in a coma for a year viable? No idea how you missed this post: How is a baby not viable after birth?????? Viable doesn't mean it can care for itself, but rather can sustain itself without further immediate medical care. When does life begin? I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that the government would say when you were born. There's a time on your birth certificate. You then start celebrating birthdays accordingly. How many fetuses did you claim on your taxes as dependents. How many were counted on the census? Stop trying to roll it back with the same silly arguments.
Pokebball Posted April 11 Posted April 11 4 minutes ago, daz28 said: There aren't many people(if any) that support late-term abortions, but the GQP lie machine has the already nutty people thinking they're ripping out screaming babies and putting them on the guillotine. That law, like so many others, probably needs to be better worded. Many states allow abortion up until birth. These states are most of the highest populated states in the country. I think it's rather disingenuous to say most most people don't support late-term abortions. Their laws don't align with that statement. US map of abortion rights 1
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 9 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: The “viability” argument isn’t good enough for that well known group of religious whackos represented by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists either. https://www.acog.org/advocacy/facts-are-important/understanding-and-navigating-viability But, simple sells. I'm not claiming to be qualified to determine viability. I've already said that's a term that needs to be decided by doctors, and not non-secular GQP nutjob politicians.
Pokebball Posted April 11 Posted April 11 6 minutes ago, daz28 said: I'm fine with that term, as long as medical professionals are. No one should have to move from a state, because it's denying freedoms. You're basically calling for non-secular segregation like moving is no big deal. No idea how you missed this post: How is a baby not viable after birth?????? Viable doesn't mean it can care for itself, but rather can sustain itself without further immediate medical care. When does life begin? I'd bet you a gazillion dollars that the government would say when you were born. There's a time on your birth certificate. You then start celebrating birthdays accordingly. How many fetuses did you claim on your taxes as dependents. How many were counted on the census? Stop trying to roll it back with the same silly arguments. Again, you skipped my question. When, scientifically, do you think human life begins? Then we'll proceed to your questions.
daz28 Posted April 11 Posted April 11 3 minutes ago, Pokebball said: Many states allow abortion up until birth. These states are most of the highest populated states in the country. I think it's rather disingenuous to say most most people don't support late-term abortions. Their laws don't align with that statement. US map of abortion rights That link doesn't say anything about late term abortions. The trump nonsense about abortions "after birth" is the classic fear mongering. About 93% of reported abortions in 2019 were performed at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy, 6% were conducted between 14 and 20 weeks and 1% were performed at or after 21 weeks, according to the most recent data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
ChiGoose Posted April 11 Posted April 11 19 minutes ago, Pokebball said: You have that link to the senate border bill that is sitting on Johnson's desk? If I'm mistaken, I'd like to know. You’re right. I totally forgot that the Senate GOP scuttled their own bill. They’re even bigger cowards than I usually think of them.
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