GOAT debate related to era Montana vs Brady

[Billl]

11 minutes ago, KzooMike said:

Thank you Bill, quality post. I think this is about as close as we can get to fairly comparing eras. I still wonder how TB would fair with different rules in place. But it's all fun hypothetical. About as close as we can get is performance relative to other players.  

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Billl

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Billl said:

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Yes and more importantly throwing against simple defenses w worse players than he's already dominated

 

I have no idea how Bills fans in particular can argue against Brady. The guy is just a killer. Perfect combination of arm/brain/work ethic plus the uncontrollable desire to absolutely rip your heart out. Absolute psychopath clearly the best NFL player of all time and second place isn't close imo

[Mikie2times]

47 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

I look at it very similar. Brady was a cerebral QB, accurate, not the strongest arm, not athletic. If he swapped places with Joe, I don't know how he goes on and does what he did in this era. As one poster mentioned, the nutrition and training was worse. The risk for injury based on the style of play and medicine was higher. Defenses could hold for 5 yards with impunity, how much does that mess with how he plays? All of this equals a situation in my mind where Brady would probably have a very similar trajectory as Montana did, which is just about the best you could do at that time. As far as switching out Montana for Brady, I guess it's also hard for me to see Montana doing what Brady did as it would be hard to consider any player doing such a thing. So I guess in a way, I think both players did about as well as you could do in the eras they had. I also think it's very debatable as far as how well each could do in the eras they did not have. 

 

 

[papazoid]

i lean Montana based on passer rating

 

Super Bowl Marks:
Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4
Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3
Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142
Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8
Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76
 
Career Postseason Marks:
Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772
Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6
Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5

[Mikie2times]

14 minutes ago, Billl said:

That’s an interesting point you bring up about wondering how Brady would fare in different eras and with different rules.  The reality is that he’s been in the league for 23 seasons, so you don’t really have to wonder.  He’s played in multiple eras with all kinds of different rules, and he’s dominated all of them.  He’s won in ball control offenses.  He’s won in wide open offenses.  He’s won in offenses featuring multiple TEs.  He’s won while making countless little white slot receivers look like world beaters.  I feel pretty confident that he’d manage to win throwing to Jerry Rice, John Taylor, Roger Craig, etc. while Bill Walsh was calling the plays.

Most of Brady's career, for practical purposes, was played by the same general rules. QB's were starting to get protected in the early 2000's when he was breaking out. I mean his knee injury created an entire rule for gods sake. Medicine and nutrition and made major advances. Most important, defensive holding rules changed in 2004. Most his major breakout years passing were post 2004. He has good years prior, but the gaudy ones happened after, as they did for many QB's. I think that change is perhaps as big as any (hitting the QB, medicine, nutrition, etc) 

[Mikie2times]

https://www.si.com/nfl/49ers/.amp/news/was-san-francisco-49ers-quarterback-joe-montana-better-than-tom-brady
 

Decent article. Focused on the era. Lot has been said already here. 

[MJS]

Well, if you look at anything (wins, championships, passing statistics, playoff appearances, longevity, big moments, etc), Tom Brady outshines Joe Montana. The only leg Montana has to stand on is the earlier era of rougher treatment for QB's, and there really isn't any way to know how Brady would have fared then, or how Montana would have fared in later eras.

 

So, it is basically up to subjective opinion when considering the era. Nobody really knows.

 

It's Tom Brady, in my opinion. I don't like him, mainly due to his countless temper tantrums on the sidelines, his cheating scandals with the Pats, and because he played for a division rival, but I think it is clear he is the GOAT.

 

Until, of course, Josh Allen takes that title in 20 years.

[unbillievable]

Montana won 3 superbowls.

 

I'll give Brady credit for 1 non * win.

 

He's hands down the greatest cheater of all time.

[thenorthremembers]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

You seem to be conveniently forgetting a few things about the discussion.   First, Brady didnt play his whole career in the era where Qbs were protected.  He was well into his career before that changed.   Secondly, Brady is a bigger athlete.  He has 2 inches and 20 pounds on Montana.   The 20 extra pounds goes a long way into the longevity you're talking about.   

 

A few points you made just dont pass the smell test

 

Chiefs Roster-  While the Chiefs didnt have Jerry Rice.   Montana had Marcus Allen (Hall of Fame) and Willie Davis with the Chiefs.  Not to mention a bevy of decent running backs like Harvey Williams and Todd McNair.   Montana wasnt airing it out by that stage of his career

 

Chiefs AFCG Appearance-  I would argue Montana was a game manager by the time he made it to the Chiefs.   They made it to the AFCG that year by playing "Marty Ball"  they ran the ball extremely well and had a couple monsters on defense Neil Smith and Derrick Thomas.    You bringing up this point and then highlighting Steve Young makes my exact point about the Walsh/Seifert 49ers offense.   What QB has succeeded in the Belichick/McDaniels offense like Brady?  Certainly not another Hall of Famer in the Lot. 

 

I still think you're going a long ways to make this argument.   Too many what if's and buts.   Montana was 38 when he retired, not a young pup by any means.  The point you're making about playing well into his 40's could be made about so many QB's not just Montana.  What if Manning didnt have the neck injury?  What if Dan Marino had played for the 49ers and not the Dolphins?  It could do on for days.  My God what if Brady had Rice, Taylor, and Roger Craig?

 

The bottom line is Brady has 7 rings, and was great over the longest period of time.  

[Matt_In_NH]

8 hours ago, Billl said:

You’re so close to getting it.  Playing with a historically great supporting cast makes QBs look even better.  Even with that roster, Montana was 16-7 all time in the postseason.  Brady is 35-13.  

 

Brady is the greatest football player in NFL history, and it’s not particularly close.  Denying that is akin to denying that Gretzky is the GOAT in hockey.

No one is disputing the volume of postseason success Brady has had vs Montana, what you listed are facts although I did not fact check them, they look correct.  The thing you have to consider is if Brady played in the 80's/90's he would have very likely had more injuries and missed more time and it is nearly impossible for him to play into his 40's.  If Montana did not have serious back injuries caused by rules that were then changed to prevent and protect a guy like Montana he would have had more volume too.  Had Montana played in the 2010's he would have had a longer career with less injuries, he easily could have approached what Brady has done in terms of post season.  For instance, Steve Young took over eventually but had Montana had the rules that Brady played under, they likely stick with Montana, do we really think Montana could not have won the SB that Young did?  So you have to adjust for those things (volume).  Montana won all 4 of his Super Bowl's he played in.  Montana had to lead his team to a game winning drive in two of them late in the fourth quarter.  Brady often had to get in field goal range.    To me, it is a reasonable debate.

[Sherlock Holmes]

8 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

I loved Montana growing up but he got to throw to Jerry Rice, maybe the greatest football player ever. Steve Young, when healthy, was arguably better than Montana in that system. They also were loaded teams because there was no cap. Look at the scrubs Brady was throwing go besides Gronk.  Winning the amount of SBs they did in a salary cap makes Brady blow Montana away. 

Of course if does. It’s like the current 49ers now. If you blindly look at Jimmy G’s stats and “wins,” he looks great. However, the fact that almost any qb can step in and be successful shows there is nothing special about him. If there was any drop off between Montana and Young, it makes Montana look better. But Young was ever better than him. 

Jimmy is in Vegas now...and Purdy ain't any QB, he is the next Brady but better.

[Matt_In_NH]

People love to say all the success in NE was solely accomplished because of Brady and Brady alone.  That is ludicrous, just ignore amount of leadership, roster building, in game decisions, defenses, offensive lines yada yada  it took to go to 9 SB's and win 6 of them that had nothing to do with Brady.   I hate the Patriots as much as the next guy but Belichick is a great coach, one of the greatest, Brady is a great QB, one of the greatest.  Having both of those pieces is why they had sustained success, yet people have to say it was one or the other.  I am aware Belichick has a sub 500 record without Brady, just like many of the other great NFL coaches do without their franchise QB.  

[Buffalo Junction]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I don't agree with this way of looking at it.  Montana's coach had nothing to do with the pin point dimes Montana threw on a regular basis.  

 

Here is how I would look at it...what if Brady and Montana switched places?  If Brady played during Montanas era where QB's got regularly smashed, what would his career look like?  I mean we saw him lose to a mediocre Giants team twice in the SB just because the Giants actually got to Brady.  What about Montana?  What would his career look like playing in an era where you can't touch the WR's and can't touch the QB's?  How much longer would Montana play if he was getting concussed from massive hits that would be illegal today?

 

Personally, I think there is no chance Brady replicates his success or longevity playing during Montana's era.  Don't get me wrong, not saying Brady couldn't have still had a great career, but he doesn't get as many rings as he did and he sure as heck doesn't play as long as he did.  And when I look at Montana, if I plug him into the NE offense during the Brady era, I honestly can say that he still wins as many as he did, probably as many as Brady, maybe even more.  

 

There is no such thing as truly swapping them, therefore, Brady's accomplishments are unmatched and has absolutely earned the GOAT title.  But, I don't necessairly know that he was actually a better QB than Montana, or vice versa.  I mean Montana won 4 Super Bowls by 36 in SF.  He would have won at least 5 or 6 if not for the back issues that led them to change to Steve Young (who won 1 and should have won 2).  He went to KC and took over an offense that does not have a single good player on it and took them to the AFCCG and 2 straight playoff trips before he retired at age 38.  

 

I think its fair to argue that had Montana got to stay with the Niners and play well into his 40's, he likely gets 7, maybe more rings.  But his body didn't allow for that thanks to the substantially more physical era he played compared to Brady.  

 

 

 

Pats lost more than Brady when he left.  Not sure why you are ignoring that fact.  And the Niners were taken over by a HOF QB.  So your argument is that a HOF QB made the pats better but you ignore the fact that the Niners had Steve Young take over, another HOF QB.  And Montana went to KC...go google the roster of KC that year, I 100% gurantee you have never heard of any of the guys on that offense because they were not good...and Montana took them to the AFCCG and playoffs both years there despite playing with a bad back and no talent around him at the end of his career. 

Regarding the last paragraph. People tend to forget that there was a massive amount of coaching turnover when Walsh left. Dennis Green left first, then Holmgren who took Sherman Lewis, Ray Rhodes, Jon Gruden, etc. Steve Young took over with the roster intact, but the prior offensive coaches were gone. Granted Holmgren was replaced with Mike Shanahan. 

 

None of the Brady to Montana stuff is apples to apples. Montana played in an era where dynasties were more prevalent, QBs could be brutalized, there was no FA, the USFL sniped top talent, speed could be neutralized with physicality, etc. The top of the league had a concentration of talent, and the moribund franchises couldn’t over pay for it (why I view Young’s time as a Buc a bad indicator of his talent).

[BillsPride12]

8 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

re the NBA

 

Very few of those guys from the 80s could have played today. They weren't athletic enough, didn't train enough, and the physical defense everyone likes to reminisce about were just fouls if we're being honest.

I've always hated this argument.  If the guys from back then played today they would have trained and used the modern nutrition programs of today and would be just fine.  If anything I've always been amazed at how the athletes back then performed knowing how hard most of them lived off the field, court in those days. 

[RangerDave]

9 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

It's Brady, I hate to say it. Maybe it was because of advances in sports medicine/nutrition and it helped him extend his prime. Can't fault him for that.

I think what helped Brady was his ability to avoid taking big hits, prolonging his career and avoiding injuries like Josh had last season that hurt his season.  He had a very quick release, played a short passing game, and threw the ball away when needed to avoid a hit.  This was all part of what made him great.  He also won with a lot of pedestrian receivers.

 

10 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

I believe NE was going to fall off regardless if he stayed or went, but it happened how it happened. 

I think Brady saw this coming and wanted out before it did.  Then he chose a team with all the right components to win another championship.  This does not demean his accomplishments in any way.  He was just smart about where he played.

[HOUSE]

Tom Brady's rookie card is worth more then Joe Montana's on EBAY 

 

The debate is over

[Matt_In_NH]

4 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

Tom Brady's rookie card is worth more then Joe Montana's on EBAY 

 

The debate is over

Ebay did not exist during Montana's career, this is irrelevent.

[HOUSE]

Tom Brady has more money

 

https://clutchpoints.com/tom-brady-net-worth

 

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-joe-montana-net-worth-is-iconic-nfl-qb-broke-2023

[Billl]

7 hours ago, papazoid said:

i lean Montana based on passer rating

 

Super Bowl Marks:
Championships — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 4
Most Valuable Player Awards — Tom Brady: 4 | Joe Montana: 3
Record — Tom Brady: 5-2 | Joe Montana: 4-0
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 15 | Joe Montana: 11
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 5 | Joe Montana: 0
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 67.0 | Joe Montana: 68.0
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 2,071 | Joe Montana: 1,142
Completions — Tom Brady: 207 | Joe Montana: 83
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 95.3 | Joe Montana: 127.8
Margin of Victory in Super Bowl Wins — Tom Brady: +19 | Joe Montana: +76
 
Career Postseason Marks:
Record — Tom Brady: 25-9 | Joe Montana: 16-7
Touchdowns — Tom Brady: 63 | Joe Montana: 45
Interceptions — Tom Brady: 31 | Joe Montana: 21
Completion Percentage — Tom Brady: 62.7 | Joe Montana: 62.7
Passing Yards — Tom Brady: 9,094 | Joe Montana: 5,772
Completions — Tom Brady: 831 | Joe Montana: 460
Passer Rating — Tom Brady: 89.0 | Joe Montana: 95.6
Game-Winning Drives — Tom Brady: 10 | Joe Montana: 5

I’m not sure where you got your stats, but the source you used must have been from about 2016 because it leaves off three trips to the Super Bowl and two rings for Brady.  Basically it omits a HOF career worth of his stats, and Brady’s accomplishments STILL dwarf Montana’s.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Brady did it for so much longer period of time.  Granted the rule changes made it easier for him to last.  I can recall Montana also having some bad games in the playoffs in years they didn't make it to the SB.  There was no free agency back then, Montana won all those years with more of the same roster and star players around him.  Brady won with complete roster turnover though out the years and probably with a handful of exceptions less superstar talent around him .