JSN Top 30 Visit with Bills

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I have been working hard to prepare you for the possibility.  You may not consider it a premium position but our last player just left for $18M.   Getting a vet replacement had around a $7M price tag for the Bobby Wagners of the world.  The Bills are a mature, contending team.  They need value from the draft.  The downside of J Campbell is Poz, for J Hyatt is Sherfield, for Q Johnston it is Hodgins.

 

It's not the consensus that you should concern yourself with, it's the other GMs.  I think Beane is much more clued into what Schoen knows than you.  It's likely they discussed the whole Edmunds saga years ago.  It doesn't seem like a stretch that Jack Campbell stood out even then.

 

Right…. They need value.  Jack Campbell is not that. MLB don’t make nearly as much as premium positions. You draft premium position so can actually get the “value” you speak of.  A good WR, OT, pass rusher or CB under a rookie contract is much more valuable than a MLB on a rookie contract.
 

Campbell will be a bills for 4-5 years then walk. That’s not what we are looking for from a 1st rd pick.  The only reason we are talking about him @ pick 27 is because of need and the other MLBs are either too raw or too small.  

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

With Zay Flowers also coming for a visit it’s clear WR people. They’re drafting a WR in the 1st or 2nd round round. Rejoice.

Not the first. Einsteins Dog says we are trading up for a second round rated LB. Hahahhaha

[NewEra]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

With Zay Flowers also coming for a visit it’s clear WR people. They’re drafting a WR in the 1st or 2nd round round. Rejoice.

I don’t think anything is clear except that we are in the market for a WR.  Who’s knows which WRs will be selected when.  Now everyone saying flowers might be top 20.  The worthy WRs may all be drafted way before our pick, just like last year and a trade up could be too expensive.  
 

we hope it’s a WR….but it’s may not be in beanes control unless he wants to give up next years first 

[CapeBreton]

16 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

For me, it's Quentin Johnston. He's not a finished product - but he's the best true Outside WR with the blend of size and speed I think we're looking for.

 

He'll need some coaching up, but when it comes to guys like JSN and Flowers - you're looking at guys who have predominately played Slot and project to Slots in the NFL. We have that position covered with Harty and Shakir already. We need another boundary WR.

 

If Beane believes JSN can play outside on this team though, I'd be all for it.

Quentin Johnston is the only early WR that the Bills have not met with, they’ve talked to JSN, Hyatt, Flowers, and Addison. Maybe they like him and don’t want to show it though? 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

I sometimes exchange DMs with a couple of the prominent bloggy / fan site folks and while I'm not saying they know everything they often do have bits of intel and they independently of one another have both said that people they speak to say that relationship was strained by the end of the year. One described it as "the bromance stage of the relationship is over." That doesn't mean (and never meant) Diggs was going to be traded or that they hate each other's guts or that they can't work through whatever issues they had. It just means it wasn't as it had been previously between the two down the stretch last year. And as you rightly say, you could safely surmise that just from observing the side-line footage. 

 

I think it is Colin Cowherd who says "nothing is everything, but everything is something." That is kinda how I feel on the Allen-Diggs thing. There was clearly a bit of disharmony, frustration, whatever... it doesn't mean the sky is falling but nor was it just fan fluff. 

 

I'll put some tea leaves down to be read and explain my basis.

 

I think Diggs got a bit out of control last season in demanding the ball at every opportunity.

Evidence supporting this:
1) Isaiah McKenzie show, talking about being assigned to "baby sit" Diggs on the sideline and calm him down (I think this was after the Tenn game).  Diggs wanted another TD (he already had 3, and the Bills won 41-7)

2) "mic'd up" film of Diggs approaching Knox on the sideline later in the season, 2nd MIA game I think.  Knox has just made a good reception, Morris caught a TD earlier.  Diggs comes up to Knox and wants recognition for drawing coverage and Knox thanks and praises him and says that arm-over Morris used to get a release for his TD, he must have been watching Diggs.  Diggs says "tight ends need to cool off, I Need My Bag!".  As he walks away, Beasley says "I'm lucky I got to touch that *****" (***** = ball, referring to his reception earlier in the game).  Knox finished the game 6 receptions on 8 targets for 98 yds, Diggs 5 on 9 for 60.

3) Dorsey repeatedly talking in pressers about how the offense works better and players stay more engaged when they spread the ball around.   Presser after the CLE game was one of these.  In the CLE game, Knox and Davis had more targets and more receiving yards than Diggs (who was 4 of 5 for 48 yds).

4) IIRC after that game there were a lot of questions about how your top receiver only gets 5 targets.  In the next game, McKenzie had 6 receptions on 10 targets for 96 yds.  But also in that game, Diggs had 8 receptions on 15 targets for 70 yds and Josh appeared to be forcing the ball to him.

5) Josh talking about Case Keenum in the locker room and how Keenum helped him with suggestions on how to "handle some of the players" on the team.  Keenum was Diggs QB during the "miracle in Minneapolis" playoff season.  Is it excessive dot connecting?  🤷‍♂️

 

The dynamics of the WR room, in contrast to previous years, did not dampen or rein this in. 

-In 2021,  Manny Sands was past his prime but it's hard to argue with 3 consecutive >1000 yd seasons and playing with Peyton Manning.  If Sanders spoke, the room would listen. 

-In 2022, the most senior WR on the team was McKenzie, who had previously been a "bit player" and a "gadget guy".  After McKenzie was signed to his first multi-year contract, Diggs tweeted about McKenzie "owing him money" so Diggs may have put in a word for him to get him signed.  All signs point to Senior WR in 2023 could not influence Diggs if necessary.

-Prior to 2022, Cole Beasley was in many ways Josh's "guy", the one he looked for when he was in trouble and needed 1Ds.  Beasley had a significant role in helping Josh develop his skills to dissect defenses as a QB.  If Josh chose to target Beasley in a clutch situation instead of Diggs, there was nothing to say about it.  In 2022, Beasley was gone

-I think it's significant that Davis and McKenzie reportedly went to Beane and lobbied for Beasley to be brought back at the end of the season.  People think Beasley was brought in to replace McKenzie, but that's not what the snap counts say.  I think the other Sr WR (Davis and McK) in the room may have lobbied for Beasley to be brought in because the dynamics in the room were out of whack and they were trying to fix it.

 

I felt the whole season was a bit of a push-me-pull-you between Josh trying to get Diggs "his bag" vs Josh trying to execute the offense as Dorsey conceived it.  This isn't necessarily selfishness on Diggs part - he was head and shoulders above every other WR on the team in skill and execution.  So it's a fair argument that the best thing to do with the ball was get it to Diggs at every opportunity, as he was the most likely to run a great route, catch it, and secure the catch.

 

I think the solution is to have another WR on the team who is closer to Diggs level - not the same skillset, but a different skillset - who is hard to argue against being a "go to" guy.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo_Stampede]

6 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t think anything is clear except that we are in the market for a WR.  Who’s knows which WRs will be selected when.  Now everyone saying flowers might be top 20.  The worthy WRs may all be drafted way before our pick, just like last year and a trade up could be too expensive.  
 

we hope it’s a WR….but it’s may not be in beanes control unless he wants to give up next years first 

I doubt it. I don’t think that many go in the top 20. I’m guessing 1. Then it’s on Bean to either wait or go get his guy. I like JSN in a trade up, he probably goes 10-20. After that I would be very happy with Johnson, Flowers, or Addison. I think at least 1 will be there at 27. 
 

After those 4 WRs I’m not drafting a WR before the 2nd. 

[julian]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I sometimes exchange DMs with a couple of the prominent bloggy / fan site folks and while I'm not saying they know everything they often do have bits of intel and they independently of one another have both said that people they speak to say that relationship was strained by the end of the year. One described it as "the bromance stage of the relationship is over." That doesn't mean (and never meant) Diggs was going to be traded or that they hate each other's guts or that they can't work through whatever issues they had. It just means it wasn't as it had been previously between the two down the stretch last year. And as you rightly say, you could safely surmise that just from observing the side-line footage. 

 

I think it is Colin Cowherd who says "nothing is everything, but everything is something." That is kinda how I feel on the Allen-Diggs thing. There was clearly a bit of disharmony, frustration, whatever... it doesn't mean the sky is falling but nor was it just fan fluff. 

If true, I’d assume management is also aware and should lead to an even greater sense of urgency to find Diggs replacement ASAP, like round 1 of the draft.

 

They need to find that replacement sooner than later anyway, this fracturing might be the extra motivation.

[dje85]

40 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The only people that have said they were unhappy with the OL or weapons are the fans….. 

 

but if you watch the games—— you would realize that the OL was HORRID and the WRs outside of Diggs were all jags.  Analysts and professionals aren’t unhappy- because they have no reason to be unhappy.  They couldn’t care less…. But they see that there are problems.  Allen and Diggs aren’t saying anything because they’re professionals and the leaders of the team.  

if Diggs and Josh aren’t unhappy with their supporting cast, they aren’t the type of competitor that we want to pay big bucks to.  Luckily for us, I’m sure they’re likely unhappy with their supporting cast, especially the OL (Spencer brown cough).   Has there been another 5 year starting QB in nfl history that has only played with one 1st round pick on offense?  And that guy was a bum that we cut.  

 

Okay, so it is just you making an assumption. Good to know. I wasn't taking a shot at you I was just curious if I had missed quotes or otherwise. 

 

I don;t feel the wr corps was that bad. Mahomes does more with less. I think we had an oc problem more than our wr corps 9the guy our qb wanted so I doubt he had an issuewith him as he backed him to be the oc in the first place). I expect a better offense overall come next season with some experience under his belt. Yes, our oline is / was horrid I can agree there but we have already address the biggest issue which was Saffold who allowed interior push and  bullrushes like a turnstile at the train station. Killing any chance Allen had at a pocket most the season. 

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, julian said:

If true, I’d assume management is also aware and should lead to an even greater sense of urgency to find Diggs replacement ASAP, like round 1 of the draft.

 

They need to find that replacement sooner than later anyway, this fracturing might be the extra motivation.

 

Think fracturing is maybe a bit strong. Straining is more the term I have heard used. But I take the point re. finding another legit receiver. The issue is not surr there is that guy in this class.

[dje85]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

Please tell me how Diggs can “get the ball more” or Allen can stop “carrying the team on his back”. I’ll help you out…better supporting weapons and a better line. 
 

Good grief man. 

Diggs is always going to want the ball more and Allen is always going to want to carry the team on their back it is their alpha mentality not a weapons / roster issue. We could win the Superbowl and if either of them didn't take league mvp they would feel the same. 

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, dje85 said:

Okay, so it is just you making an assumption. Good to know. I wasn't taking a shot at you I was just curious if I had missed quotes or otherwise. 

 

I don;t feel the wr corps was that bad. Mahomes does more with less. I think we had an oc problem more than our wr corps 9the guy our qb wanted so I doubt he had an issuewith him as he backed him to be the oc in the first place). I expect a better offense overall come next season with some experience under his belt. Yes, our oline is / was horrid I can agree there but we have already address the biggest issue which was Saffold who allowed interior push and  bullrushes like a turnstile at the train station. Killing any chance Allen had at a pocket most the season. 

I wasn’t even the one you were quoting.  It’s not rocket science unless you don’t watch the Bills.  
 

Mahomes had less?  🤣 oh man. W/e you say man.  
 

Brown was equally as bad. 

[whorlnut]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I doubt it. I don’t think that many go in the top 20. I’m guessing 1. Then it’s on Bean to either wait or go get his guy. I like JSN in a trade up, he probably goes 10-20. After that I would be very happy with Johnson, Flowers, or Addison. I think at least 1 will be there at 27. 
 

After those 4 WRs I’m not drafting a WR before the 2nd. 

While I agree with this, I do have concerns about who might be there in the second. The top of the second is usually where you see a big run on receivers. Happens every year. If that happens, we could be looking at a not so sexy pool of receivers at 59. 

[Dr. Who]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'll put some tea leaves down to be read and explain my basis.

 

I think Diggs got a bit out of control last season in demanding the ball at every opportunity.

Evidence supporting this:
1) Isaiah McKenzie show, talking about being assigned to "baby sit" Diggs on the sideline and calm him down (I think this was after the Tenn game).  Diggs wanted another TD (he already had 3, and the Bills won 41-7)

2) "mic'd up" film of Diggs approaching Knox on the sideline later in the season, 2nd MIA game I think.  Knox has just made a good reception, Morris caught a TD earlier.  Diggs comes up to Knox and wants recognition for drawing coverage and Knox thanks and praises him and says that arm-over Morris used to get a release for his TD, he must have been watching Diggs.  Diggs says "tight ends need to cool off, I Need My Bag!".  As he walks away, Beasley says "I'm lucky I got to touch that *****" (***** = ball, referring to his reception earlier in the game).  Knox finished the game 6 receptions on 8 targets for 98 yds, Diggs 5 on 9 for 60.

3) Dorsey repeatedly talking in pressers about how the offense works better and players stay more engaged when they spread the ball around.   Presser after the CLE game was one of these.  In the CLE game, Knox and Davis had more targets and more receiving yards than Diggs (who was 4 of 5 for 48 yds).

4) IIRC after that game there were a lot of questions about how your top receiver only gets 5 targets.  In the next game, McKenzie had 6 receptions on 10 targets for 96 yds.  But also in that game, Diggs had 8 receptions on 15 targets for 70 yds and Josh appeared to be forcing the ball to him.

5) Josh talking about Case Keenum in the locker room and how Keenum helped him with suggestions on how to "handle some of the players" on the team.  Keenum was Diggs QB during the "miracle in Minneapolis" playoff season.  Is it excessive dot connecting?  🤷‍♂️

 

The dynamics of the WR room, in contrast to previous years, did not dampen or rein this in. 

-In 2021,  Manny Sands was past his prime but it's hard to argue with 3 consecutive >1000 yd seasons and playing with Peyton Manning.  If Sanders spoke, the room would listen. 

-In 2022, the most senior WR on the team was McKenzie, who had previously been a "bit player" and a "gadget guy".  After McKenzie was signed to his first multi-year contract, Diggs tweeted about McKenzie "owing him money" so Diggs may have put in a word for him to get him signed.  All signs point to Senior WR in 2023 could not influence Diggs if necessary.

-Prior to 2022, Cole Beasley was in many ways Josh's "guy", the one he looked for when he was in trouble and needed 1Ds.  Beasley had a significant role in helping Josh develop his skills to dissect defenses as a QB.  If Josh chose to target Beasley in a clutch situation instead of Diggs, there was nothing to say about it.  In 2022, Beasley was gone

-I think it's significant that Davis and McKenzie reportedly went to Beane and lobbied for Beasley to be brought back at the end of the season.  People think Beasley was brought in to replace McKenzie, but that's not what the snap counts say.  I think the other Sr WR (Davis and McK) in the room may have lobbied for Beasley to be brought in because the dynamics in the room were out of whack and they were trying to fix it.

 

I felt the whole season was a bit of a push-me-pull-you between Josh trying to get Diggs "his bag" vs Josh trying to execute the offense as Dorsey conceived it.  This isn't necessarily selfishness on Diggs part - he was head and shoulders above every other WR on the team in skill and execution.  So it's a fair argument that the best thing to do with the ball was get it to Diggs at every opportunity, as he was the most likely to run a great route, catch it, and secure the catch.

 

I think the solution is to have another WR on the team who is closer to Diggs level - not the same skillset, but a different skillset - who is hard to argue against being a "go to" guy.

Very clever narrative. I find it plausible.

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

I wasn’t even the one you were quoting.  It’s not rocket science unless you don’t watch the Bills.  
 

Mahomes had less?  🤣 oh man. W/e you say man.  
 

Brown was equally as bad. 

Yeah I laugh at people that use Mahomes as an example in regards to not having much. He has arguably the best oline, a good running game, the best TE in the game and some very solid, reliable receivers. The only player I’d take over who the chiefs have is Diggs. That’s it. 

[dje85]

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I wasn’t even the one you were quoting.  It’s not rocket science unless you don’t watch the Bills.  
 

Mahomes had less?  🤣 oh man. W/e you say man.  
 

Brown was equally as bad. 

You are telling me he had better / more offensive weapons on that Chiefs offense than the Bills did last year. I'm not arguing he had an amazing oline. I am saying weapons wise the Bills had way more, and still have way more. 

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

Yeah I laugh at people that use Mahomes as an example in regards to not having much. He has arguably the best oline, a good running game, the best TE in the game and some very solid, reliable receivers. The only player I’d take over who the chiefs have is Diggs. That’s it. 

I disagree majorly here. Minus Diggs for us and Kelce for them we still have/ had better running backs and wrs and a top te in Knox. We just couldn;t scheme well as Allen was hurt and couldn't throw short passes well. So everything had to be deep passes and poor run calls w/out a lot of screens etc.  

[NewEra]

2 minutes ago, dje85 said:

You are telling me he had better / more offensive weapons on that Chiefs offense than the Bills did last year. I'm not arguing he had an amazing oline. I am saying weapons wise the Bills had way more, and still have way more. 

Way more even…..  🤣 

 

we may have more now…. after KC lost Juju (who got signed for almost 10M a year) and Hardman, who got 8m.  
 

how much did crowder, Mckenzie, Beasley and Brown get?  I’ll wait.  

[whorlnut]

Just now, NewEra said:

Way more even…..  🤣 

 

we may have more now…. after KC lost Juju (who got signed for almost 10M a year) and Hardman, who got 8m.  
 

how much did crowder, Mckenzie, Beasley and Brown get?  I’ll wait.  

It’s so funny to me that some people can’t take off their fan glasses and look at things for the way they are. I’d take juju or hardman over davis. I’d take skyy moore over anyone we had in the slot and toney was a good find as well. Come on with this “we had more” nonsense. 

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

I understand about Metcalf. That's why you might take a shot on Johnston if he is available at 27 if you think he has a comparable ceiling and a reasonable chance of reaching it. He's a risk and is not that player out of the box.

I like Johnston's skill set but fully expect him to be drafted in the teens of the draft. 

[Beck Water]

33 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Right…. They need value.  Jack Campbell is not that. MLB don’t make nearly as much as premium positions. You draft premium position so can actually get the “value” you speak of.  A good WR, OT, pass rusher or CB under a rookie contract is much more valuable than a MLB on a rookie contract.
 

Campbell will be a bills for 4-5 years then walk. That’s not what we are looking for from a 1st rd pick.  The only reason we are talking about him @ pick 27 is because of need and the other MLBs are either too raw or too small.  

 

Fair point that top vet MLBs don't earn as much as top vet WR.  For example, the top 12 WR contracts are all over $20k in AAV; the top 8 "Edge" contracts are over $20k; only the top 5 MLB are over $15k.

 

I'm not quite sure how that folds into the prediction that "Campbell will be a bill for 4-5 years then walk".  Depending upon the team's overall makeup and depth at different positions, it could be equally true that a 1st round pick who makes good at edge or WR would be a Bill for 4-5 years then be traded or tagged and traded, or let walk if they don't live up to expectations?

 

 

 

 

[dje85]

1 minute ago, NewEra said:

Way more even…..  🤣 

 

we may have more now…. after KC lost Juju (who got signed for almost 10M a year) and Hardman, who got 8m.  
 

how much did crowder, Mckenzie, Beasley and Brown get?  I’ll wait.  

Juju is average the guys we were bringing off the street are as good or better than him. If they werent older vets they would be getting those contracts as well. All Juju has for him is age. Gabe Davis on the open market would of gotten the top contract this year similar to the crazy bucks wrs were getting last year. 

 

But, I'm done arguing you won't agree with me and I'm sure as heck not agreeing with you as I'm certain I am correct.