JSN Top 30 Visit with Bills

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, Dr. Who said:

There are plenty of good discussions that could be searched were one good at that sort of thing and possessed of sufficient leisure on where Davis ranks as a wr that reference his catch percentage, stats that show how in a few games he was very productive and practically absent in many, etc. Folks argue that wr2 plays a specific role and that wide variance in performance from game to game is common; that you can't know for instance if in a particular gameplan the wr2 isn't mainly being used to run long go-routes to clear out space underneath for other targets. Some suggest that Davis is not a chain mover wr and that his forte is naturally going to involve lower percentage catch scenarios. These are qualitative considerations. I'm not a gofer to pull up the stats or type out dozens of names at the behest of a request that takes ten seconds to type out. The point is that I am aware the calculations are rather complex in making an assessment, but in general, for whatever reason, Davis too often had games where drops were an issue or where he was not enough of a threat to offer a compelling secondary worry for the opposing D. Most likely deficiencies at the slot position were at least as significant a factor in the offense breaking down, along with a porous oline, Josh's injury, and Dorsey's presence as a first year OC. Nonetheless, imo, he was not any better than adequate and often far too inconsistent and injury prone to be judged above low end wr2.

I get why people judge Gabe on catch rate etc. yet he does produce above average despite some of his problems. I mean what are people expecting from a number 2 is my question. He scored 7 TDs last year and in fact stored more than 6 TDs in each of his first three seasons here. He's also averaged close to 17.0 yards a catch, while he isn't a true speed demon he can get downfield as evident from his 98 yard TD last year against Pittsburgh. As to me Davis is never going to be a guy to catch 6 balls a game and get you 70 yards a game, it's just not him or his role. It never was or never will be, that was left to Beasley. Instead he's in the John Brown/Emmanuel Sanders 2-3 catches a game role and honestly think he is pretty good at it. He might not be a top 32 WR (which to me would mean he's a number 1 since there are 32 NFL teams in the league) but he is a top 40 which puts him in the circle of better than average number 2s. 

[whorlnut]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

The situation involving Stefon Diggs is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

 

He was emotional, angry and upset during the Bengals playoff loss.  He was frustrated with the coaches and some of his teammates.  So was I, and just about every Bills fan on the planet.  He wanted to win, and really believed this team had a chance to win the Super Bowl.

 

This does not magically mean his relationship with Josh Allen is breaking down.  This does not mean he wants to be traded.  This does not mean he is suddenly unhappy being in Buffalo.

 

Agree. But what is the best way to keep him happy?  Get better weapons to take pressure off of him. That’s where JSN and other top receivers come into play. Hence the premise of this thread. 

[dje85]

18 hours ago, whorlnut said:

This is one of the main reasons I think Beane will go offense early. Both Diggs and Allen are unhappy due to the line and supporting cast, and they are our best players. 

When has Allen shown he is unhappy with the weapons or line? For that matter Diggs..? Did I miss a quote towards the end of last season or this offseason? 

 

If anything both seemed unhappy with themselves like they somehow  need to up their game. Diggs upping his game by getting the ball more to help carry the offense and Allen being Allen thinking he needs to carry the team on his back. Which both think every year.

 

Only people unhappy with the offensive line or weapons openly are the fans. 

 

All I've seen is a Diggs tweet saying Gabe Davis has wr1 potential and Beasley blaming the defensive collapse not the offense that scored plenty enough points to win. 

 

[Dr. Who]

33 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

I get why people judge Gabe on catch rate etc. yet he does produce above average despite some of his problems. I mean what are people expecting from a number 2 is my question. He scored 7 TDs last year and in fact stored more than 6 TDs in each of his first three seasons here. He's also averaged close to 17.0 yards a catch, while he isn't a true speed demon he can get downfield as evident from his 98 yard TD last year against Pittsburgh. As to me Davis is never going to be a guy to catch 6 balls a game and get you 70 yards a game, it's just not him or his role. It never was or never will be, that was left to Beasley. Instead he's in the John Brown/Emmanuel Sanders 2-3 catches a game role and honestly think he is pretty good at it. He might not be a top 32 WR (which to me would mean he's a number 1 since there are 32 NFL teams in the league) but he is a top 40 which puts him in the circle of better than average number 2s. 

Yes, you are in the camp with @Shaw66 who are satisfied with Davis and think he is a solid wr2. That's fine. Your argument is basically that Davis' critics want another number 1, not a wr2. If Davis did not appear to have chronic injury problems and if he did not have enough key drops for that to be noticed by average fans, I think he would be an average 2. I don't see him as better than average despite the numbers you gesture towards. If we were not a team in a SB window, he'd be nothing to fixate over, but I think we are in an era of supercharged offense and that is a position I would like to upgrade. It's not a hole on the roster, so if it can't be upgraded it's not a crisis situation, it's just my preference. There are other ways to attack offensive problems. Improving the oline ought to be priority number one and if that becomes a strength, it will have a good affect for offensive performance generally. Slot receiver needs to be more proficient; maybe Shakir is ready for that, I don't know. I'd like to get a much better TE2, assuming Dorsey will incorporate the weapons given to him into a coherent gameplan. Hypothetically, and I agree with @GunnerBill that he is a boom or bust prospect, so you might be wary of drafting him, I think Quintin Johnston could be a DK Metcalf type player. I would prefer that to Davis. If you brought in Dalton Kincaid, I think he would be another dangerous weapon at a different position, but someone the opposing D would have to account for and gameplan against. If that happens, I am fine with Davis because I think you have added enough elsewhere to lessen the attention the D can place on Diggs and overall made the offense less predictable and harder to defend.

[whorlnut]

39 minutes ago, dje85 said:

When has Allen shown he is unhappy with the weapons or line? For that matter Diggs..? Did I miss a quote towards the end of last season or this offseason? 

 

If anything both seemed unhappy with themselves like they somehow  need to up their game. Diggs upping his game by getting the ball more to help carry the offense and Allen being Allen thinking he needs to carry the team on his back. Which both think every year.

 

Only people unhappy with the offensive line or weapons openly are the fans. 

 

All I've seen is a Diggs tweet saying Gabe Davis has wr1 potential and Beasley blaming the defensive collapse not the offense that scored plenty enough points to win. 

 

Please tell me how Diggs can “get the ball more” or Allen can stop “carrying the team on his back”. I’ll help you out…better supporting weapons and a better line. 
 

Good grief man. 

[aristocrat]

44 minutes ago, dje85 said:

When has Allen shown he is unhappy with the weapons or line? For that matter Diggs..? Did I miss a quote towards the end of last season or this offseason? 

 

If anything both seemed unhappy with themselves like they somehow  need to up their game. Diggs upping his game by getting the ball more to help carry the offense and Allen being Allen thinking he needs to carry the team on his back. Which both think every year.

 

Only people unhappy with the offensive line or weapons openly are the fans. 

 

All I've seen is a Diggs tweet saying Gabe Davis has wr1 potential and Beasley blaming the defensive collapse not the offense that scored plenty enough points to win. 

 

 

Josh can't exactly go on the podium and say...well my line sucks and these guys don't ***** catch the ball. Bates took the blame with how they couldn't figure out cincy's blitzes.  Josh can go privately to Beane and let him know like a professional though.  Our best player needs to be give all the resources to win. 

[Don Otreply]

18 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

What sign do you have that Josh is unhappy? And while Diggs definitely is, a lot of his unhappiness is reported as a breakdown of his relationship with Josh. I think you are guilty of putting 2 and 2 together and making 5. 

Josh in an interview did use words in friendly way that our opponents had better protection and weapons, he did not say directly that he was upset, but one can infer that he saw teams doing a better job with their offenses than the Bills have been doing, and I am quite certain SD & JA talk to each other with some regularity, and most likely communicate their thoughts to the GM & HC in a professional manor. So, yes they are very likely not as happy as they would like to be, and that imo is a good thing, they want better, and are trying to get Beane to see things their way, again all done in a professional team building fashion.

[The Jokeman]

45 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Yes, you are in the camp with @Shaw66 who are satisfied with Davis and think he is a solid wr2. That's fine. Your argument is basically that Davis' critics want another number 1, not a wr2. If Davis did not appear to have chronic injury problems and if he did not have enough key drops for that to be noticed by average fans, I think he would be an average 2. I don't see him as better than average despite the numbers you gesture towards. If we were not a team in a SB window, he'd be nothing to fixate over, but I think we are in an era of supercharged offense and that is a position I would like to upgrade. It's not a hole on the roster, so if it can't be upgraded it's not a crisis situation, it's just my preference. There are other ways to attack offensive problems. Improving the oline ought to be priority number one and if that becomes a strength, it will have a good affect for offensive performance generally. Slot receiver needs to be more proficient; maybe Shakir is ready for that, I don't know. I'd like to get a much better TE2, assuming Dorsey will incorporate the weapons given to him into a coherent gameplan. Hypothetically, and I agree with @GunnerBill that he is a boom or bust prospect, so you might be wary of drafting him, I think Quintin Johnston could be a DK Metcalf type player. I would prefer that to Davis. If you brought in Dalton Kincaid, I think he would be another dangerous weapon at a different position, but someone the opposing D would have to account for and gameplan against. If that happens, I am fine with Davis because I think you have added enough elsewhere to lessen the attention the D can place on Diggs and overall made the offense less predictable and harder to defend.

DK Metcalf is the number 1 WR in Seattle, he over took the role I would say in 2021, that said I have no issues improving TE2 in fact I've been activating that if he fell to us I'd be all for drafting Michael Mayer.  I also agree we need better production from the slot yet not sure if Shakir ready to step in and no guarantee a rookie WR can step in either as to me WRs one of the hardest transitions from college to NFL there is and most take a good 3-4 to maximize their talents/learn to run routes and develop consistent separation. 

Edited April 11, 2023 by The Jokeman

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Josh in an interview did use words in friendly way that our opponents had better protection and weapons, he did not say directly that he was upset, but one can infer that he saw teams doing a better job with their offenses than the Bills have been doing, and I am quite certain SD & JA talk to each other with some regularity, and most likely communicate their thoughts to the GM & HC in a professional manor. So, yes they are very likely not as happy as they would like to be, and that imo is a good thing, they want better, and are trying to get Beane to see things their way, again all done in a professional team building fashion.

 

I am quite sure they do too. I think the distinction I was trying to make (and I did seek to clarify in my follow up post) was the difference between the conversations internally between team leaders and coaching / FO vs what we "know" as fans are the sources of their frustration based on public statements. I have no doubt that Josh talked to Sean and Brandon in his exit interview about the mess they put in front of him this past year and on the frustrations he had with drops. I suspect he will also have said "and I played like ***** too often." Because it is the great thing about Josh. He starts with the man in the mirror. 

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, mjt328 said:

The situation involving Stefon Diggs is getting blown WAY out of proportion.

 

He was emotional, angry and upset during the Bengals playoff loss.  He was frustrated with the coaches and some of his teammates.  So was I, and just about every Bills fan on the planet.  He wanted to win, and really believed this team had a chance to win the Super Bowl.

 

This does not magically mean his relationship with Josh Allen is breaking down.  This does not mean he wants to be traded.  This does not mean he is suddenly unhappy being in Buffalo.

 

The Bengals game was not the only game in which Diggs was directing visible unhappiness at not getting the ball at Josh Allen, both on and off the field.

[Dr. Who]

9 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

DK Metcalf is the number 1 WR in Seattle, he over took the role I would say in 2021, that said I have no issues improving TE2 in fact I've been activating that if he fell to us I'd be all for drafting Michael Mayer.  I also agree we need better production from the slot yet not sure if Shakir ready to step in and no guarantee a rookie WR can step in either as to me WRs one of the hardest transitions from college to NFL there is and most take a good 3-4 to maximize their talents/learn to run routes and develop consistent separation. 

I understand about Metcalf. That's why you might take a shot on Johnston if he is available at 27 if you think he has a comparable ceiling and a reasonable chance of reaching it. He's a risk and is not that player out of the box.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Dr. Who

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

The Bengals game was not the only game in which Diggs was directing visible unhappiness at not getting the ball at Josh Allen, both on and off the field.

 

I sometimes exchange DMs with a couple of the prominent bloggy / fan site folks and while I'm not saying they know everything they often do have bits of intel and they independently of one another have both said that people they speak to say that relationship was strained by the end of the year. One described it as "the bromance stage of the relationship is over." That doesn't mean (and never meant) Diggs was going to be traded or that they hate each other's guts or that they can't work through whatever issues they had. It just means it wasn't as it had been previously between the two down the stretch last year. And as you rightly say, you could safely surmise that just from observing the side-line footage. 

 

I think it is Colin Cowherd who says "nothing is everything, but everything is something." That is kinda how I feel on the Allen-Diggs thing. There was clearly a bit of disharmony, frustration, whatever... it doesn't mean the sky is falling but nor was it just fan fluff. 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Josh in an interview did use words in friendly way that our opponents had better protection and weapons, he did not say directly that he was upset, but one can infer that he saw teams doing a better job with their offenses than the Bills have been doing, and I am quite certain SD & JA talk to each other with some regularity, and most likely communicate their thoughts to the GM & HC in a professional manor. So, yes they are very likely not as happy as they would like to be, and that imo is a good thing, they want better, and are trying to get Beane to see things their way, again all done in a professional team building fashion.

 

I think these are valid points, but the proof will be in the "pudding" on draft day. 

 

Replacing Isaiah McKenzie with Deonte Harty and Jake Kumerow with Trent Sherfield are reasonable moves with a potential "higher ceiling", and replacing Rodger Saffold with Connor McGovern and adding David Edwards are potential upgrades to pass pro, but none of these 4 moves count as significant upgrades.

 

If this is part of an off-season plan that also includes adding significant offensive pieces in the draft, that will be great.  If it's a token nod to the offense while drafting defense with our top 3 picks or even defense with 2/3 top picks, it's lip service.

 

Beane talked about having to redo their "positional value" or some similar lingo.  I think that means deciding how positional value factors into their draft board.  At its best, it could be a depersonalized way of saying "we need to invest more on offense" vs. having a DC and OC pound the table and glare at each other.  At worst, it could be used (consciously or not) as a way of reinforcing a defensive-minded HC personnel priorities. 

[Einstein's Dog]

18 hours ago, whorlnut said:

If the bills are interested in a top WR, they are doing a very poor job of hiding it. 

And if the Bills have no interest in WR, it looks like they are taking some for the ride.  Just as they have for years on end with the RB joke. 

 

This years chuckle in the front office has to be the leaked report they were moving up for "offensive playmakers".   How does that originate?  The FO saying to each other, these loose lipped teams ahead of us are going to let it slip that we're inquiring about what it takes to move up.   We better tell them it's for offensive talent, otherwise everyone and their brother would be able to see that the Bills have to get ahead of the Giants to get Jack Campbell.  People seemed to buy it, well done FO, lets change the news cycle quickly.

 

What a coincidence,  JSN is coming for a visit.  Can the Bills get JSN?  Where is he scheduled to go?  What would it take for the Bills?  Keep the news cycle moving.  Next week a visit by Q Johnston would seal it.   The board will then be saying things like "there's too much smoke...."

[whorlnut]

1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

And if the Bills have no interest in WR, it looks like they are taking some for the ride.  Just as they have for years on end with the RB joke. 

 

This years chuckle in the front office has to be the leaked report they were moving up for "offensive playmakers".   How does that originate?  The FO saying to each other, these loose lipped teams ahead of us are going to let it slip that we're inquiring about what it takes to move up.   We better tell them it's for offensive talent, otherwise everyone and their brother would be able to see that the Bills have to get ahead of the Giants to get Jack Campbell.  People seemed to buy it, well done FO, lets change the news cycle quickly.

 

What a coincidence,  JSN is coming for a visit.  Can the Bills get JSN?  Where is he scheduled to go?  What would it take for the Bills?  Keep the news cycle moving.  Next week a visit by Q Johnston would seal it.   The board will then be saying things like "there's too much smoke...."

Or there could be something to it. Hmmmmm. Think about it…why on earth would the bills go to all this trouble to smoke screen wanting to land a second round graded LB in the first round?  Again…this isn’t the 90’s. LBs don’t hold the same premium value that they once did. Try joining 2023 before you miss out. 

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Einstein's Dog said:

And if the Bills have no interest in WR, it looks like they are taking some for the ride.  Just as they have for years on end with the RB joke. 

 

This years chuckle in the front office has to be the leaked report they were moving up for "offensive playmakers".   How does that originate?  The FO saying to each other, these loose lipped teams ahead of us are going to let it slip that we're inquiring about what it takes to move up.   We better tell them it's for offensive talent, otherwise everyone and their brother would be able to see that the Bills have to get ahead of the Giants to get Jack Campbell.  People seemed to buy it, well done FO, lets change the news cycle quickly.

 

What a coincidence,  JSN is coming for a visit.  Can the Bills get JSN?  Where is he scheduled to go?  What would it take for the Bills?  Keep the news cycle moving.  Next week a visit by Q Johnston would seal it.   The board will then be saying things like "there's too much smoke...."

Well, I agree (as I indicated) with Beck Water's post directly above yours. The hypothetical you portray is indeed a continuation of the standard Process. I hope they alter their habitual procliviites. If they are going D early, I'd rather they invested at a superlative DT or Edge. I don't believe Campbell is anything more than a safe pick at a position that doesn't merit 27, let alone a trade up.   

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, dje85 said:

When has Allen shown he is unhappy with the weapons or line? For that matter Diggs..? Did I miss a quote towards the end of last season or this offseason? 

 

If anything both seemed unhappy with themselves like they somehow  need to up their game. Diggs upping his game by getting the ball more to help carry the offense and Allen being Allen thinking he needs to carry the team on his back. Which both think every year.

 

Only people unhappy with the offensive line or weapons openly are the fans. 

 

All I've seen is a Diggs tweet saying Gabe Davis has wr1 potential and Beasley blaming the defensive collapse not the offense that scored plenty enough points to win. 

 

The only people that have said they were unhappy with the OL or weapons are the fans….. 

 

but if you watch the games—— you would realize that the OL was HORRID and the WRs outside of Diggs were all jags.  Analysts and professionals aren’t unhappy- because they have no reason to be unhappy.  They couldn’t care less…. But they see that there are problems.  Allen and Diggs aren’t saying anything because they’re professionals and the leaders of the team.  

if Diggs and Josh aren’t unhappy with their supporting cast, they aren’t the type of competitor that we want to pay big bucks to.  Luckily for us, I’m sure they’re likely unhappy with their supporting cast, especially the OL (Spencer brown cough).   Has there been another 5 year starting QB in nfl history that has only played with one 1st round pick on offense?  And that guy was a bum that we cut.  

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by NewEra

[whorlnut]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Well, I agree (as I indicated) with Beck Water's post directly above yours. The hypothetical you portray is indeed a continuation of the standard Process. I hope they alter their habitual procliviites. If they are going D early, I'd rather they invested at a superlative DT or Edge. I don't believe Campbell is anything more than a safe pick at a position that doesn't merit 27, let alone a trade up.   

It’s beyond absurd to me to think anyone believes we could trade up in the first for a player that doesn’t play a premium position and doesn’t even have a consensus first round grade.  

2 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The only people that have said they were unhappy with the OL or weapons are the fans….. 

 

but if you watch the games—— you would realize that the OL was HORRID and the WRs outside of Diggs were all jags.  Analysts and professionals aren’t unhappy- because they have no reason to be unhappy.  They couldn’t care less…. But they see that there are problems. 

if Diggs and Josh aren’t unhappy with their supporting cast, they aren’t the type of competitor that we want to pay big bucks to.  Luckily for us, I’m sure they’re likely unhappy with their supporting cast, especially the OL (Spencer brown cough).   Has there been another 5 year starting QB in nfl history that has only played with one 1st round pick on offense?  And that guy was a bum that we cut.  

 

Exactly. I’m not sure why certain groups of posters keep wanting more defense every year and are content to let Allen piddle around with less than ideal talent on his side of the ball. At some point, the bills are gonna have to pony up and find some players with elite talent to play along side him. Enough of these one year contracts to players on “prove it” deals. Get the guy some guys with elite traits that he can build continuity with. 

[Einstein's Dog]

1 minute ago, whorlnut said:

It’s beyond absurd to me to think anyone believes we could trade up in the first for a player that doesn’t play a premium position and doesn’t even have a consensus first round grade.  

I have been working hard to prepare you for the possibility.  You may not consider it a premium position but our last player just left for $18M.   Getting a vet replacement had around a $7M price tag for the Bobby Wagners of the world.  The Bills are a mature, contending team.  They need value from the draft.  The downside of J Campbell is Poz, for J Hyatt is Sherfield, for Q Johnston it is Hodgins.

 

It's not the consensus that you should concern yourself with, it's the other GMs.  I think Beane is much more clued into what Schoen knows than you.  It's likely they discussed the whole Edmunds saga years ago.  It doesn't seem like a stretch that Jack Campbell stood out even then.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

With Zay Flowers also coming for a visit it’s clear WR people. They’re drafting a WR in the 1st or 2nd round round. Rejoice.

Edited April 11, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede