From WR7 to WR1 to one of the best in the NFL

[Alphadawg7]

3 hours ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

You are really gonna pin W-L records on a WR? Also, that TD was the only one Revis gave up the ENTIRE year. Of course those stats look pedestrian because people forget just how dominant he was during the 2011 season routinely shutting down the most elite WRs. Revis was not just the best CB, but perhaps the best player in the NFL in his prime if you look at the difficulty of the position and the production versus him and his counterparts. 

I didn’t pin win/loss record on anyone.  I gave you the facts of Stevie’s “legendary” dominance over Revis that includes no wins, a terrible catch rate, and poor statistics.  

Stevie had a 48% catch rate, and averaged 3.5 catches for 47 yards against Revis over his career.  
 

You think that equates to giving Revis “trouble”?  Lol, come on.  And why?  Because he scored one TD on him in one game that meant nothing in a game we lost?  I mean, Stevie dropping the game winning TD pass against Pittsburgh, a costly drop that cost us a win, negates this one TD that meant nothing against Revis.  I mean it was a perfect pass right in his hands.  
 

So let’s quit pretending he somehow gave Revis fits when it’s factually false.  

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[cwater10]

Stevie Johnson happened.  He was real.  Acknowledge it.  The Revis thing is a red herring argument.  Yes, he did in fact do better against Revis than almost any other receiver.  And as modest as his numbers look against Revis from a distance, you are talking about performance against one specific CB that almost no other receiver caught ANY pass against.  That is a narrow lens.  If that spot check leaves you underwhelmed, then don't let that detract from the overall body of work.  That is Stevie's true legacy.

 

You can't just dismiss his statistics based upon cherry picked memories of specific game situations or circumstance.  I remember a number of big catches and meaningful TD's as well.  They all count.  This is a thread about late round picks that have exceeded expectation and excelled.  He absolutely meets that description.  The reality is that we are still discussing him 10 years after he played here because of his exceptional accomplishments here.  There have been countless receivers on this team, and every other team around the NFL that played on bad teams or mediocre teams.  Plenty played on pass heavy teams.  Stevie played with inconsistent and often poor QB play and on teams that featured some fine RB's like Fred Jackson, CJ Spiller and Marshawn Lynch.  So what?  That is not the thing that makes him stand out in this discussion.  Plenty of receivers fit that description.  What does make him stand out is that he accomplished what none of the countless others  were able to.  The reality is that not a single one of the scores of late round pick receivers or even high round pick receivers ever accomplished what Stevie did in Buffalo, REGARDLESS of circumstance or team dynamic.  Very few did league wide.  Give him credit for that.  He was not a mirage.

 

And let's offer full disclosure when discussing his post Buffalo career to mention that injuries limited his production post Buffalo, which is hardly an unprecedented surprise as a player ages out of the league.  OJ Simpson also faded into football oblivion in San Francisco after he was traded there in 1977.  Does that mean he was overrated in Buffalo?  Of course not.  Those San Francisco years did not define OJ, nor do Stevie's San Fran and San Diego years define him.  His definitive career moments came here.  Let them stand for the accomplishments that they were. 

 

Finally, let's acknowledge a certain 1985 4th round pick from Kutztown State as the best late round pick in team history.  He worked out pretty well.

 

 

Edited April 10, 2023 by cwater10

[QB Bills]

13 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Stevie is so overrated.  His 1000 yards seasons are maybe the 3 weakest in NFL history.  So much gets made of that and it was so over hyped.  I mean he never even reached 1100 yards despite being on a pass happy team allergic to running the ball as the #1 WR.  And in all 3 1000 yard seasons, a good percentage of his production came in garbage time late in games when the game was already decided.  

 

There is a reason he was out of the league 2 years after Buffalo despite going to play in good offenses.  Stevie Johnson was really a decent #3 WR at best who got to be WR1 on a team devoid of options.  And that team was not very good, so they got behind a lot giving him chances to pad underwhelming stats late in games when the game was out of reach.  He would have like 0-2 catches all game, then suddenly get 2 or 3 catches on a end of game drive with a meaningless TD.  Poof...his season end totals look relevant, but they were not.  

You have some of the worst takes on this board so this is totally on brand.

 

Using team wins/losses to critque a receiver is about the laziest argument one can make. What did Calvin Johnson ever win? Guess he's overrated too.

[CA OC Bills Fan]

I can't believe Alpha is saying Stevie was overrated. You can't ignore or rationalize away 3 straight 1000 yard seasons, a feat that Reed, Moulds, or anyone not named Diggs has done for the Bills! And, he was fun during a pretty dismal time for us as fans. 

 

Why so serious!

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, QB Bills said:

You have some of the worst takes on this board so this is totally on brand.

 

Using team wins/losses to critque a receiver is about the laziest argument one can make. What did Calvin Johnson ever win? Guess he's overrated too.

LOL, it’s fine if you have a different opinion on Stevie, but I’ll put my track record and rep against yours any day of the week and twice on Sundays  

 

Again another one claiming I pinned win losses on him.  Literally not what I said at all, but I get why you focused on only that one thing because you can’t discuss his stats vs Revis because they aren’t good.  

 

When people can’t counter facts they divulge to attempting to mud sling.  So I get it.  But you failed.  

Edited April 10, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[C.Biscuit97]

How did this becomes a Stevie Johnson bashing thread??? He’s not a hall of famer but one of the first “modern” players with some swag who made it cool to be a Bill. Nothing but love for SJ!

[RiotAct]

16 hours ago, 4merper4mer said:

What is the name of that person?

I don’t want to speak his name on here.

[Alphadawg7]

 

7 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

How did this becomes a Stevie Johnson bashing thread??? He’s not a hall of famer but one of the first “modern” players with some swag who made it cool to be a Bill. Nothing but love for SJ!

It wasn’t meant to be, I just pointed out how he has been overrated by fan lore.  The some started countering with more fan lore of things like he somehow excelled vs Revis which is just factually false on every level.  
 

But pointing out he was overrated struck a chord just like it did when it was discussed a lot when he was here.  
 

Despite how it seems, I don’t have anything personal against Stevie, and have love for him as a person.   But he wasn’t very good and that was not on any level a “fun” era of football.  
 

That was a time of wading through this board with post after post propping up mediocre to below average players as if they were good.  Like the endless threads saying Fitz was a good starter when he wasn’t.  

 

I found nothing about that era particularly fun when we went 16-32 during those 3 1000 yard season.  Gailey went out every week and forced the passing game with a weak combo of Fitz and Stevie and would go away from our very good rushing game by the second half too often.  
 

But off the field, big fan of Fitz and even Stevie.  On the field, it was not a good or fun era of football.  
 

 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

It wasn’t meant to be, I just pointed out how he has been overrated by fan lore.  The some started countering with more fan lore of things like he somehow excelled vs Revis which is just factually false on every level.  
 

But pointing out he was overrated struck a chord just like it did when it was discussed a lot when he was here.  
 

Despite how it seems, I don’t have anything personal against Stevie, and have love for him as a person.   But he wasn’t very good and that was not on any level a “fun” era of football.  
 

That was a time of wading through this board with post after post propping up mediocre to below average players as if they were good.  Like the endless threads saying Fitz was a good starter when he wasn’t.  

 

I found nothing about that era particularly fun when we went 16-32 during those 3 1000 yard season.  Gailey went out every week and forced the passing game with a weak combo of Fitz and Stevie and would go away from our very good rushing game by the second half too often.  
 

But off the field, big fan of Fitz and even Stevie.  On the field, it was not a good or fun era of football.  
 

 

 

See I disagree on Chan's era. I don't disagree with your take on Stevie but those Chan teams were fun to me. It might be because my early Bills exposures were Malarkey and Jauron but I loved those Chan teams. They weren't very good, and I certainly wasn't guilty of overrating them as some did, but they were fun. The games were fun, the offense scored points, there were some amazing comebacks some other spectularly blown losses and a few absolute curb stompings where they looked completely incapable. But it was fun to me week to week. The games were watchable. Like I am a McDermott fan, and 2017 was incredible in the sense an undertalented team was coaxed and coached well enough to break the drought... but the game were not fun. They were a hard watch most weeks. I enjoyed the outcomes and the competitiveness but not the spectacle. 

 

It is possible to differentiate results from enjoyment IMO.

Edited April 10, 2023 by GunnerBill

[Alphadawg7]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I disagree on Chan's era. I don't disagree with your take on Stevie but those Chan teams were fun to me. It might be because my early Bills exposures were Malarkey and Jauron but I loved those Chan teams. They weren't very good, and I certainly wasn't guilty of overrating them as some did, but they were fun. The games were fun, the offense scored points, there were some amazing comebacks some other spectularly blown losses and a few absolute curb stompings where they looked completely incapable. But it was fun to me week to week. The games were watchable. Like I am a McDermott fan, and 2017 was incredible in the sense an undertalented team was coaxed and coached well enough to break the drought... but the game were not fun. They were a hard watch most weeks. I enjoyed the outcomes and the competitiveness but not the spectacle. 

 

It is possible to differentiate results from enjoyment IMO.

Totally get where you are coming from if you started in the Juaron era.  For me, I was a die hard fan since 1988, so by the time the Fitz era got here I was over the sub par teams.  I was even more over the cheapness of how this organization was run with no real GM, committing to sub par starters like Fitz (day he got his extension was a terrible day in my book), poor drafting, no quality free agents, etc.  

 

We also just used the 9th overall pick on Spiller when we had both Lynch and Freddy.  Then they would just underuse the run game, like why waste the 9th pick on a RB if we are going to force feed a weak pass attack which I found frustrating.  

 

But from your perspective, I can see how much more exciting that era was from the previous eras you entered under.  For me, and many of us, it was a weekly reminder our team was no where near ending the drought or entering contention.  And we were committing to players and coaching that was not going to suck enough to get premium picks and not be good enough to be a winner.  And that is worse than sucking in my book because that is basically purgatory.

Edited April 10, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[RoyBatty is alive]

On 4/9/2023 at 11:55 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Well he played with Philip Rivers after and then was out of the league.

 

And no, it is not the same thing.  Like Stevie literally would have 0 catches or 2 catches for 13 yards and then on the final drive in 3 score loss would get 3 catches for a TD.  I posted ALL the time about it when it was happening.  

 

He was nowhere near a top WR, and he was only WR1 here by default and was an average #3 WR at best.  He never reached 500 yards again after leaving Buffalo and was out of the league 2 seasons later for good.  

 

Go back and look at his game logs during those 3 seasons of barely reaching 1000 yards. 

 

Stevie is easily the most overrated player in Bills history and his 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons are probably the least impressive 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons in NFL history.  Prime Stevie Johnson would be WR4 on this years Bills team, a team everyone says desperately needs to find a new #2 WR.  

"  More than half his stats came in the 4th quarter of bad losses when the game was out of reach after being a ghost the rest of the game before it got out of reach."

 

Yeah, i am going to have to agree with you one that.  That drop in the endzone versus the Steelers and then blaming it on God was about as bad as it gets

[Sharky7337]

On 4/9/2023 at 7:55 PM, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Stevie is so overrated.  His 1000 yards seasons are maybe the 3 weakest in NFL history.  So much gets made of that and it was so over hyped.  I mean he never even reached 1100 yards despite being on a pass happy team allergic to running the ball as the #1 WR.  And in all 3 1000 yard seasons, a good percentage of his production came in garbage time late in games when the game was already decided.  

 

There is a reason he was out of the league 2 years after Buffalo despite going to play in good offenses.  Stevie Johnson was really a decent #3 WR at best who got to be WR1 on a team devoid of options.  And that team was not very good, so they got behind a lot giving him chances to pad underwhelming stats late in games when the game was out of reach.  He would have like 0-2 catches all game, then suddenly get 2 or 3 catches on a end of game drive with a meaningless TD.  Poof...his season end totals look relevant, but they were not.  

I just remember him giving Revis fits cause he neither one of them knew what the heck route he was running lol

[Buffalo716]

On 4/10/2023 at 10:48 AM, CA OC Bills Fan said:

I can't believe Alpha is saying Stevie was overrated. You can't ignore or rationalize away 3 straight 1000 yard seasons, a feat that Reed, Moulds, or anyone not named Diggs has done for the Bills! And, he was fun during a pretty dismal time for us as fans. 

 

Why so serious!

Well you can rationalize it to having a 6th sense chemistry with fitz… they were scout team guys together and fitz had upmost trust in him

 

A very weak WR group let Stevie stand out and get fed… could never produce with another qb 

[Paup 1995MVP]

On 4/10/2023 at 11:59 AM, Alphadawg7 said:

Totally get where you are coming from if you started in the Juaron era.  For me, I was a die hard fan since 1988, so by the time the Fitz era got here I was over the sub par teams.  I was even more over the cheapness of how this organization was run with no real GM, committing to sub par starters like Fitz (day he got his extension was a terrible day in my book), poor drafting, no quality free agents, etc.  

 

We also just used the 9th overall pick on Spiller when we had both Lynch and Freddy.  Then they would just underuse the run game, like why waste the 9th pick on a RB if we are going to force feed a weak pass attack which I found frustrating.  

 

But from your perspective, I can see how much more exciting that era was from the previous eras you entered under.  For me, and many of us, it was a weekly reminder our team was no where near ending the drought or entering contention.  And we were committing to players and coaching that was not going to suck enough to get premium picks and not be good enough to be a winner.  And that is worse than sucking in my book because that is basically purgatory.

I enjoy both yours and Gunners' football opinions.  You guys know your stuff about the game of football, the history of football and of course the Bills.  Stevie Johnson was a fun player to watch.  He was actually a good WR coming out of Kentucky.  And was probably underdrafted.  That being said, if you there was not a thread about him, I can not remember the last time I even thought about him in the history of the Bills.  He played in an era when the team was pretty meh.  Did not dominate on a weekly basis.  And had the drop against the Steelers in OT that was crushing.  I also remember a game the Sunday after Thanksgiving at the Jets in 2011 when we were driving late to come back and win.  And Fitzie threw a perfect pass to Stevie on a 20-25 yard crossing route in the last minute that he probably could have taken to the house for the winning score, and he flat out dropped it.  

 

The drought years in general were brutal.  IMO the best player to put on a Bills uniform in that era was Kyle Williams.  If he had played for a better franchise, he would probably be in the HOF now.  Or about to get in.  He was that good a player, with as quick a first step off the snap as anyone not named Aaron Donald.  And not much slower.   Wasn't he a 5th round pick out of LSU?  Aaron Schobel was real good too.  But not as good as Kyle and he only played 9 seasons.  I also really enjoyed watching Terrance McGhee and Willis McGahee play for the Bills.  Terrance got the most out of his career, even though injuries took his toll.  Had great speed and technique as a CB and was a great Kick returner.   And Willis was a super talented RB.  He could have been an all timer.  But the horrible knee injury he took in the Nat Championship game really robbed him of his greatness.  And finally I liked Leodis McKelvin more then most.  Was a solid CB who was not great.  But was an excellent PR, and always played hard every week.  He came out of Troy.  Which having been to Troy, Alabama is as far from the world of Buffalo that anyone could ever imagine.  RURAL!!

 

Anyone else got some opinions on draught year players?   Sorry if I hijacked the thread to a different place.  But I get so tired of talking and listening about the draft for 3+ months.  We need some good O lineman especially at OT.  If anyone thinks there is a higher priority, they have not been watching the team play.  Dawkins is mediocre at best.  And Spencer Brown blows.  End of story.  

[dave mcbride]

20 hours ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

I enjoy both yours and Gunners' football opinions.  You guys know your stuff about the game of football, the history of football and of course the Bills.  Stevie Johnson was a fun player to watch.  He was actually a good WR coming out of Kentucky.  And was probably underdrafted.  That being said, if you there was not a thread about him, I can not remember the last time I even thought about him in the history of the Bills.  He played in an era when the team was pretty meh.  Did not dominate on a weekly basis.  And had the drop against the Steelers in OT that was crushing.  I also remember a game the Sunday after Thanksgiving at the Jets in 2011 when we were driving late to come back and win.  And Fitzie threw a perfect pass to Stevie on a 20-25 yard crossing route in the last minute that he probably could have taken to the house for the winning score, and he flat out dropped it.  

 

The drought years in general were brutal.  IMO the best player to put on a Bills uniform in that era was Kyle Williams.  If he had played for a better franchise, he would probably be in the HOF now.  Or about to get in.  He was that good a player, with as quick a first step off the snap as anyone not named Aaron Donald.  And not much slower.   Wasn't he a 5th round pick out of LSU?  Aaron Schobel was real good too.  But not as good as Kyle and he only played 9 seasons.  I also really enjoyed watching Terrance McGhee and Willis McGahee play for the Bills.  Terrance got the most out of his career, even though injuries took his toll.  Had great speed and technique as a CB and was a great Kick returner.   And Willis was a super talented RB.  He could have been an all timer.  But the horrible knee injury he took in the Nat Championship game really robbed him of his greatness.  And finally I liked Leodis McKelvin more then most.  Was a solid CB who was not great.  But was an excellent PR, and always played hard every week.  He came out of Troy.  Which having been to Troy, Alabama is as far from the world of Buffalo that anyone could ever imagine.  RURAL!!

 

Anyone else got some opinions on draught year players?   Sorry if I hijacked the thread to a different place.  But I get so tired of talking and listening about the draft for 3+ months.  We need some good O lineman especially at OT.  If anyone thinks there is a higher priority, they have not been watching the team play.  Dawkins is mediocre at best.  And Spencer Brown blows.  End of story.  

He completely smoked Revis on that play, btw. That was discussed after the game and fed the narrative about how his very unorthodox route running (he was actually a unique player in that sense) often left Revis flummoxed. That was a real thing.

[Paup 1995MVP]

27 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He completely smoked Revis on that play, btw. That was discussed after the game and fed the narrative about how his very unorthodox route running (he was actually a unique player in that sense) often left Revis flummoxed. That was a real thing.

Stevie Johnson definitely had some game for us.  Who did you like better.  Him or Sammie Watkins?  Sammie had ability.  But was somewhat of a head case, and always seemed to have nagging foot and ankle injuries.  And playing with Tyrod Taylor as your QB sure did not help.  

[dave mcbride]

1 minute ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

Stevie Johnson definitely had some game for us.  Who did you like better.  Him or Sammie Watkins?  Sammie had ability.  But was somewhat of a head case, and always seemed to have nagging foot and ankle injuries.  And playing with Tyrod Taylor as your QB sure did not help.  

Watkins had so much talent -- far more than Johnson. When he first started, he looked absolutely amazing. He also completely abused Revis in 2015 in that game where the Bills knocked the Jets out of the playoffs. Of course, Revis was a worse player by then. 

 

Watkins was a head case, of course, but the real issue with him was the injuries. He has been missing time every season it seems due to hamstring issues.

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

He completely smoked Revis on that play, btw. That was discussed after the game and fed the narrative about how his very unorthodox route running (he was actually a unique player in that sense) often left Revis flummoxed. That was a real thing.

That play did happen, and agreed, it was a great play on Revis…but the issue is that it’s still one play.  Revis statistically dominated their matchups.  In 5 games, Stevie averaged 3.6 Rec for 47 yards with a poor 48% catch rate.  
 

This board talks about this play like it was the only play ever surrendered by Revis.  This lore that Stevie owned Revis (as someone previously put it) is just not accurate at all and solely based on this one play in a game we didn’t even win.
 

To put it in better context…Stevie literally had more game losing drops than he had amazing TD’s on Revis.