New stadium cost goes up from $1.4 billion to $1.54 billion.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Utah John said:

They get the money but it's not coming from their pockets, it's coming from the fans, the public.  Sure, fans don't have to buy tickets if they don't want to.  But they do want to.

 

When the Raiders moved back to Oakland, they charge a hefty PSL for the right to buy season tickets at Oakland Raiders games.  Those PSLs aren't worth anythng anymore.  

And where does the fans money come from?  Whatever business Joe blow works for.  The point is it’s not tax dollars it’s generated from a business.  I understand you don’t like it but it does come from the pegulas pockets once they extract it from the fans.  At that point it is theirs to do with what they want.  

[Matt_In_NH]

29 minutes ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

What about the Buffalo Bills fans that have health issues? What about the fact Erie County is a aging area of the country? Does that matter? You are trying to make it like it’s a tough guy thing or badge of honor. I went in blizzards back when I was healthy enough not just for the Buffalo Bills but the UB Bulls. The Buffalo Bisons were the best because you could get window seats in the restaurant to get around the freezing April cold weather. I once froze so badly at the Buffalo Bills game against the San Diego Chargers I couldn’t move my hand to make my power chair work. I had gloves on my brother in law thankfully had a blanket he bought he was using to put on my hand so I could get back to the car. And it sucked to battle the weather weekly as a Buffalo Bills and UB Bulls season ticket holder. I didn’t feel it was badge of honor at all. Again not all of us are in the same situation. It’s cold at these games and also for fans like me who are disabled in Power Wheelchairs we have to watch how much rain because it’s a power chair. I once had my power chair die at UB Stadium on the walk back at the end of the game because of nasty weather Miami Ohio RedHawks game with Ben Roelisburger it was a blizzard in the second half. Again sit in cold isn’t no badge of Buffalo honor. I only have been to one dome stadium football game ever the International Bowl Game in Toronto for the UB Bulls and I loved not freezing not having to layer on tons of clothes that isn’t enjoyable it’s a pain in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

 They have services to get people to and for seats.  They have boxes to stay inside.  You are seriously going to take a stadium and find reasons it discriminates against someone?   Lots of people have health issues and cannot go to an nfl game easily.  Some choose to give it up just like they might give up hunting as they age.   But the stadium will have to be fully accessible with wheel chair ramps and elevators per ADA.  
 

I dont think it’s a tough guy thing.  It is a football thing.  Most places football is played outside.  If you want to attend in Buffalo it will be outside.  They are not making a 5 billion dollar dome with thousands of amenities no matter how much people complain.   You are trying to find any reason to make your point….aging population.  Who goes to games?   It is not a random sampling of the population it trends younger.  

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, Utah John said:

They get the money but it's not coming from their pockets, it's coming from the fans, the public.  Sure, fans don't have to buy tickets if they don't want to.  But they do want to.

 

When the Raiders moved back to Oakland, they charge a hefty PSL for the right to buy season tickets at Oakland Raiders games.  Those PSLs aren't worth anythng anymore.  

And where does the fans money come from? You’re playing a circular logic game. You wanna really blow your mind? Close to $1 billion of the stadium costs is spent on the labor to construct it. So unless the construction workers are being bussed in from out of state, then vast majority of the state’s, county’s and the owner’s money goes right back into the local community who then uses it to by cars, refrigerators, groceries, and….football tickets. 

[mrags]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

And where does the fans money come from? You’re playing a circular logic game. You wanna really blow your mind? Close to $1 billion of the stadium costs is spent on the labor to construct it. So unless the construction workers are being bussed in from out of state, then vast majority of the state’s, county’s and the owner’s money goes right back into the local community who then uses it to by cars, refrigerators, groceries, and….football tickets. 

Well. Not all of it will be local. I understand your point. But I can tell you for a fact that Turner Construction who is one of the construction companies on the project, will be transferring workers into the area for the project. As well as Nyseg will for the electrical work. I know those 2 companies for sure, I can’t vouch for all of their workers, and I can’t vouch for any other company involved. Of course there will be plenty of local companies involved. 

[Jrb1979]

48 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

PSLs are useless and an incredible rip off in general but In this instance it is egregious.

 

taxpayers are giving pegula $1bill for a new stadium, the least he could do is not place an exorbitant fee on top of already raised ticket prices. it's a slap in the face to this community

 

but pegula is in florida, WTF does he care about our community

 

 

That's just part of staying in the NFL

[Matt_In_NH]

21 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

But it is money that comes from season ticket buyers and is used to fund the stadium.  Therefore, obviously, it cannot in any way be described as coming from the the pockets of "Pegs".

 

So when you go to work and get a paycheck and then use that paycheck to buy Bills tickets, can we way that money does not come from the Pocket of Mr. Weo and really it comes from your employer?  Same thing...he has a business that earns income from a PSL, at that point it is his.  He then chooses to build a stadium with it.   I totally understand you don't like it, it does feel like a hostage type deal but it is what it is...business.

7 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

PSLs are useless and an incredible rip off in general but In this instance it is egregious.

 

I'd say they have value since they are funding the stadium, not sure how you can call that useless.   The Tax money pays for part of it, not all of it.   Lots of people pay taxes and don't care about the Bills so shifting a bigger percentage on the actual consumers who will use the stadium seems reasonable even if we don't like it.  I think what you really want is for the Pegula's to just fund it from anywhere but PSL's....reasonable but it's not how it's going to go down.

[nucci]

I remember Ralph Wilson saying PSLs would never work in Buffalo. He may have been a bad owner but he was a smart man. Guess we'll see soon

[JoPoy88]

26 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

So when you go to work and get a paycheck and then use that paycheck to buy Bills tickets, can we way that money does not come from the Pocket of Mr. Weo and really it comes from your employer?  Same thing...he has a business that earns income from a PSL, at that point it is his.  He then chooses to build a stadium with it.   I totally understand you don't like it, it does feel like a hostage type deal but it is what it is...business.

 

 

You’re right in general terms but I think when specifically talking about PSLs it’s a little different. The PSL was invented and intended from its earliest days to do one thing: finance construction of venues. PSL holders get no benefit from providing that subsidy, other than the optional right to attend events there. Which is fine, that’s how it’s done nowadays and owners aren’t going to walk them back now.

 

I think a lot of people have trouble not with the things themselves, but how these stadium pacts are presented, given the PSLs existence - you always hear “state/public is contributing x, with the team/owner contributing y.” In more accurate terms it’s “the general public is contributing x, while consumers of the product (ticket buyers) are contributing y. With the possibility of the owner cracking the wallet for cost overruns.”

6 minutes ago, nucci said:

I remember Ralph Wilson saying PSLs would never work in Buffalo. He may have been a bad owner but he was a smart man. Guess we'll see soon

I think they’ll work if priced correctly, i.e. on the very low end.

[Mr. WEO]

32 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

So when you go to work and get a paycheck and then use that paycheck to buy Bills tickets, can we way that money does not come from the Pocket of Mr. Weo and really it comes from your employer?  Same thing...he has a business that earns income from a PSL, at that point it is his.  He then chooses to build a stadium with it.   I totally understand you don't like it, it does feel like a hostage type deal but it is what it is...business.

 

I'd say they have value since they are funding the stadium, not sure how you can call that useless.   The Tax money pays for part of it, not all of it.   Lots of people pay taxes and don't care about the Bills so shifting a bigger percentage on the actual consumers who will use the stadium seems reasonable even if we don't like it.  I think what you really want is for the Pegula's to just fund it from anywhere but PSL's....reasonable but it's not how it's going to go down.

 

No it's money I earned.  Pegula's earned money is in a bank (so to speak).  Your analogy doesn't make sense. 

 

He doesn't "have a business the earns income from PSLs". And he's not building a stadium either. If he was charging a PSL since he bought the team that would be different--just another billionaire squeezing as much from a loyal customer as possible.  But there are no PSLs as of yet.  He is using them solely to offset any actual money of his own he would have to spend (or borrow) to fund "his" portion.

 

PSLs are worthless for the most part.  It's money tied up in nothing tangible and, in Buffalo, they would be hard to resell for face value.  But for the Canadians, every attendee of a game is a taxpayer...so they have already contributed to the majority of the cost of building this stadium.  It makes no sense to say that there is "value" in making the same customers pay again out of pocket to fund the rest of the "private" contribution, nor is it "reasonable" when the billionaire could easily cover the difference with his own funds (which are not your funds, just to remind you). 

 

 

[Mister Defense]

On 4/8/2023 at 8:35 PM, McDeerInTheHeadlights said:

 

Backward or not, your theory certainly isn't validated by the Bills themselves.

 

I would venture to say that if there is one thing that anyone, from pundits to casual fans, could easily agree upon when it comes to the Bills, is that they're a rather soft team. So much that their QB is indisputably their toughest, most physical player.

 

So unless going through something like the Hamlin's scare and totally s**tting the bed afterwards is the definition of not being soft, yeah playing in the elements did pretty much nothing to make the Bills a though or physical team.

 

I never said that playing in the elements makes all teams tough and more resilient.  And I don't think all dome teams are soft.  For example, Detroit seems to rise above that obstacle lately.

 

But there does seem to be a pattern for the dome teams I mentioned as they are 'the same' kind of soft teams, year after year. 

[Gregg]

14 minutes ago, nucci said:

I remember Ralph Wilson saying PSLs would never work in Buffalo. He may have been a bad owner but he was a smart man. Guess we'll see soon

 

It's going to put pressure on Terry to field a competitive team. Could you imagine 5-12, 6-11 type seasons in the new stadium with those ticket prices and PSL fees. If Terry is under pressure, then you know McDermott and Beane will be as well. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Gregg

[John from Riverside]

They upgraded the toilets huh

[LabattBlue]

16 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

It's going to put pressure on Terry to field a competitive team. Could you imagine 5-12, 6-11 type seasons in the new stadium with those ticket prices and PSL fees. If Terry is under pressure, then you know McDermott and Beane will be as well. 

I know the dome vs open air has been beat to death, and a decision has been made, but what you stated is why there should have been a dome.  In the years when you combine a crappy team with crappy weather, no one wants to go in November, December & January. 

[mrags]

7 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

It's going to put pressure on Terry to field a competitive team. Could you imagine 5-12, 6-11 type seasons in the new stadium with those ticket prices and PSL fees. If Terry is under pressure, then you know McDermott and Beane will be as well. 

This is part of my whole gripe with everything. My whole argument has multiple angles. 
 

They want to charge PSLs for seat. That’s fine. But I want it to be a better experience than what we’re currently getting. They want to increase ticket sales, that’s fine but I want to be more comfortable in my seat. They want to do all this, but had a losing team, it’s not going to work. 
 

right now there’s a 7,000 person waiting list for season tickets. Up from 4,000 last season. Back when we were in a 17 year drought, there was no waiting list. They are absolutely striking while the iron is hot. And good for them. That’s good business. But if things go south with this team, they are going to have an extremely hard time selling tickets at the prices they expect to get. 
 

Been my deal the whole argument. I’m good with spending more. I’ve sat through the worst conditions every single game since 2006. Now that they are building this new thing and could have planned from beginning to make fans comfortable. I’m not soft by any means. But for the money they want to charge, I want to be comfortable. I don’t want to have to bundle up like the Christmas Story kid in the winter. Or have to wear rain coats and get soaked all game in 38* rain days. That’s me personally. But it is true of many other people. And it’s factual based on when it is crumby, our stadium isn’t full. I see it every year. When the weather turns, people start skipping Games. When we were not good those seats went empty. When we are good, they often got to opposing teams fans on the secondary market. The Bengals this past year in the playoffs was embarrassing imo. Way too many bengals fans for a home Div playoff game. 

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

He doesn't "have a business the earns income from PSLs".

So when the Buffalo Bills charge for PSL's and people pay it, what is that?  Are the Bills a business?   Are PSL's not revenue for the Bills business?

[Gregg]

1 minute ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

and he was right. It will be disastrous here

 

It will work as long as the Bills can put a winning product on the field that can compete for a Super Bowl. But if that changes then look to the 1970's, 1984, 1985 levels of attendance. Pressure is on Terry, and it will really be on Beane and McDermott to keep them a winning team.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I feel like the SOFI went from like 5 to 8 billion or something ridiculous.  And the Chargers are using it on the lease for like no money because the NFL forced it to happen.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

So when the Buffalo Bills charge for PSL's and people pay it, what is that?  Are the Bills a business?   Are PSL's not revenue for the Bills business?

 

Yes. Bills are a business.  It's more money squeezed out of ticket holders so the owner/company can avoid taking on debt.  Essentially the STHer's take on the debt burden so the Bills don't have to.

 

That's what PSLs are for--simply to shift the "private funding" from the owner to the fans.  Their sole purpose.  If it was just because the Bills wanted more revenue, they would charge a PSL new stadium or not.  So this extra revenue would never otherwise be "in the owner's pocket".

 

PSLs are the way an owner says to fans "you pay for it".  Pretending otherwise is being disingenuous.

[Gregg]

10 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

I disagree. PSLs have been a disaster in Dallas and they have been been at the same level we have been in recent years. I dont think anyone would argue they have a small or disinterested fanbase. 

 

PSLs are just a rip off whether the team is bad or good

 

I agree with you that it is a rip off. But if the team is winning then enough fans will deal with the cost and still go to the games. Unfortunately, many fans will be priced out from going.  The Bills know they will lose fans as the new stadium will only hold 65K.

[PromoTheRobot]

Has it been brought up yet that Pegula is on the hook for overruns?

15 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

I disagree. PSLs have been a disaster in Dallas and they have been been at the same level we have been in recent years. I dont think anyone would argue they have a small or disinterested fanbase. 

 

PSLs are just a rip off whether the team is bad or good

 

On the other hand, PSL's are like a user fee. Those attending games share in the cost of construction.