New stadium cost goes up from $1.4 billion to $1.54 billion.

[cba fan]

On 4/10/2023 at 2:34 PM, SUNY_amherst said:

 

i dont think they are getting $1billion from taxpayers anywhere in the US to build a Home Depot or Target 

 

NFL stadium seems a little bigger in scale than a car dealership

 

 

 

 

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds, fill in the blank ___________________developers of strip malls etc etc...... they all get tax welfare. And they in total get much much more than the occasional sports arena being built as sports are getting less and less public input. Developers and private businesses getting corporate tax welfare are increasing as the states and localities fight to entice them.

 

Just mention a Tesla or Lowes warehouse or Bass Pro or Amazon HQ, or a Casino, to an area, and they will rain money down on them to get them.

Edited April 12, 2023 by cba fan

[cba fan]

On 4/10/2023 at 7:15 PM, nucci said:

I live in Delaware. No sales tax here

it was a metaphor. And i was talking about tax on car sales off your comment about buying a car. Document car tax in Delaware. 1500 to over 2 k per car.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by cba fan

[Bob Jones]

17 hours ago, cba fan said:

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds, fill in the blank ___________________developers of strip malls etc etc...... they all get tax welfare. And they in total get much much more than the occasional sports arena being built as sports are getting less and less public input. Developers and private businesses getting corporate tax welfare are increasing as the states and localities fight to entice them.

 

Just mention a Tesla or Lowes warehouse or Bass Pro or Amazon HQ, or a Casino, to an area, and they will rain money down on them to get them.

Maybe, but not always. NY city TURNED AWAY a large Amazon project.

[mrags]

8 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Maybe, but not always. NY city TURNED AWAY a large Amazon project.

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

[Bob Jones]

2 minutes ago, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

You only get cahrged a fee if you want fast shipping for *free.* Not everybody is a Prime member. 😉

[Einstein]

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

in total Walmart collectively per company has received Billions to build all their many many locations.

 

Source? Don't think that happened. You might be able to find money going towards improvements of roads, or tax credits - but I see no evidence of the government giving Walmart billions to build stores.

 

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

same with Target, Home Depot, McDonalds

 

Again, source?

 

18 hours ago, cba fan said:

they all get tax welfare

 

This is much much much much different than cash.

 

Getting a tax credit to reduce the tax burden on a businesses land to incentivize them to come or stay, is way different than handing them a check for nearly $1 billion dollars.

 

[SoCal Deek]

42 minutes ago, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

No they don’t….not yet. Funny thing is that Barnes and Noble already does. While buying a paperback the other day I was asked if I was a loyalty customer, and when the guy then offered me the ‘deal’ I learned it came with an annual fee…and that was just to buy a book for $9.95. Sheeesh! 😉

[mrags]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

No they don’t….not yet. Funny thing is that Barnes and Noble already does. While buying a paperback the other day I was asked if I was a loyalty customer, and when the guy then offered me the ‘deal’ I learned it came with an annual fee…and that was just to buy a book for $9.95. Sheeesh! 😉

Eh. I feel like Barnes and Nobles is having the same issue that every single newspaper in the entire world is having. Nobody get paper newspapers or books anymore. You can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. Book stores will be a thing of the past very soon. Just like paper newspapers. But McDonalds will always have a home. The big box companies like Lowe’s and Bass Pro may be gone sooner or later as online shopping continues and expands. 

[Einstein]

20 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

It is expensive (modern/ridiculous), useless and without the charm of a historic facility.

 

Well said.

 

It completely lacks charm. A truly terrible design. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, mrags said:

Eh. I feel like Barnes and Nobles is having the same issue that every single newspaper in the entire world is having. Nobody get paper newspapers or books anymore. You can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. Book stores will be a thing of the past very soon. Just like paper newspapers. But McDonalds will always have a home. The big box companies like Lowe’s and Bass Pro may be gone sooner or later as online shopping continues and expands. 

I thought I would try this…so bear with me:

 

“Eh. I feel like small market sports franchises are having the same issues as other businesses. Nobody wants to pay big money to attend games in person when you can easily get everything you need online and it’s much easier to deal with. But big market teams will always have a home. The small market teams may soon be gone so long as online streaming continues and expands.”

 

Not too shabby, huh? I did that thumb typing on a cell phone. 😁

3 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Well said.

 

It completely lacks charm. A truly terrible design. 

Let me guess. You were hoping for some gothic columns and stone arches? 😉

[SoCal Deek]

8 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

i believe it does have arches actually in the end zone in the last rendering

 

But that’s the whole point, if you have the Mona Lisa and you trash it to paint a brand new portrait of a homely brunette woman that looks similar to the Mona Lisa, it is gonna lack charm

 

 

I was of course joking about the arches. Stadium design has gone through many aesthetic trends over the last century. There was a time when they were built to resemble classical buildings. Think of the LA Coliseum and Soldier Field. That eventually gave way to a more utilitarian aesthetic where the focus was on the field itself and much less on the ‘building’. Some were successful and some have already been demolished. Rich Stadium, as I still call it, would fit into this category. It has no architectural adornment of any kind, but it does have very elegant, non-stylistic lines…which is why in my opinion it’s not considered to be out of date by most who review these things. Fast forward, and the newest stadiums are back to being ‘buildings’ again but now with a decidedly forward looking aesthetic. Much different from even the newest baseball stadiums which typically draw from a more nostalgic looking aesthetic. 

[Just Jack]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:39 PM, SoCal Deek said:

I actually agree with a lot of that. I’m told that the existing concrete structure itself is in terrible condition.  But I’ve also heard that this is primarily in the upper desk, not the lower bowl which is built into the ground. So yes, I agree that each upper deck could have been torn down either all at once or in successive years and then rebuilt with new roof covered sideline grandstands including multi story indoor concourse structures. I’m guessing it would’ve been far cheaper. 

 

I'm in one of the club sections and I did notice some steel reinforcement was added this past season underneath the upper deck to the concrete.  Kind of a band aid to keep the upper deck concrete from coming apart. 

[SoCal Deek]

45 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

I'm in one of the club sections and I did notice some steel reinforcement was added this past season underneath the upper deck to the concrete.  Kind of a band aid to keep the upper deck concrete from coming apart. 

Exactly.
 

What you’re seeing there is a classic example of the structural properties of reinforced concrete. The concrete works in compression. Meaning it won’t ‘smoosh’ but it cracks easily if you bend it. Whereas the steel reinforcing bars are the opposite. They can bend without snapping but have almost no compressive strength. Put the two together and you have a structure that resists both tension and compression. However…if and when the concrete starts to deteriorate and water gets to the steel, it will rust, and then lose all of its tensile strength…and eventually the whole thing fails completely. 
 

How’s that for a quick structural engineering lesson? 

[cba fan]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:09 AM, mrags said:

The easier response is this:

 

yes, but Target, Walmart, Bass Pro, Casinos, Home Depot, Lowe’s, McDonalds, etc, don’t charge you a fee just to walk into the door before you even buy anything. 

Sams Club and Costco do.

If your above mentions are in tiff districts, then yes you pay every year in property tax lost that must be made up by raising yours. 

If tax welfare is funded through bonds then again you keep paying locally.

If fed money is given you are paying via income tax.

virtually all those locations also charge local and state sales tax. Just 4 states have no sales tax. 

 

You are splitting hairs. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by cba fan

[cba fan]

On 4/11/2023 at 4:24 PM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Question. If fans had a choice would they have chosen a renovation and no PSL’s at $900 million or what we’re getting at $1.6 billion and PSL’s that could be more? 
 

I should add that a renovation would mean playing games elsewhere for 2-3 years.

rebuilding would have ended up costing close to a new one and they would still have been left with an old crappy one. Not good money management.

 

moving Bills to another site(Syracuse?) for 3 years during a rare SB window with aQB in his prime would have been the most epic failure in NFL history killing home field advantage making all games like a road game.

[cba fan]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:53 AM, Einstein said:

 

Source? Don't think that happened. You might be able to find money going towards improvements of roads, or tax credits - but I see no evidence of the government giving Walmart billions to build stores.

 

 

Again, source?

 

 

This is much much much much different than cash.

 

Getting a tax credit to reduce the tax burden on a businesses land to incentivize them to come or stay, is way different than handing them a check for nearly $1 billion dollars.

 

Walmart argues the amounts but not the receiving of the welfare.

 

Walmart benefits from billions in government subsidies- Study.url Wal-Mart's Expansion Aided By Many Taxpayer Subsidies - The New York Times.url

[JoPoy88]

1 hour ago, cba fan said:

rebuilding would have ended up costing close to a new one and they would still have been left with an old crappy one. Not good money management.

 

moving Bills to another site(Syracuse?) for 3 years during a rare SB window with aQB in his prime would have been the most epic failure in NFL history killing home field advantage making all games like a road game.

not to mention there is no way in hell the league office and the other owners would have went for a billion dollar renovation of a 50 year old stadium. Never ever would have even been considered. Yet some people here talk about it like it would have been such a great option. 
 

And no don’t bring up Chicago. Totally different situation.

[mrags]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Sams Club and Costco do.

If your above mentions are in tiff districts, then yes you pay every year in property tax lost that must be made up by raising yours. 

If tax welfare is funded through bonds then again you keep paying locally.

If fed money is given you are paying via income tax.

virtually all those locations also charge local and state sales tax. Just 4 states have no sales tax. 

 

You are splitting hairs. 

Ok. But everything you just stated also applies to the Bills and the new stadium AND, they are also charging PSLs. Again. You can’t say that all these companies are getting breaks and profiting but then not include the Bills. And you can add Sams Club and Costco all you want. That’s a membership fee. But if you really want to include them and their $50-100 membership fees to prove your point then I guess I’ll just concede and that you refuse to listen to any argument. So have a good day. 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Walmart argues the amounts but not the receiving of the welfare.

 

Walmart benefits from billions in government subsidies- Study.url 99 B · 1 download Wal-Mart's Expansion Aided By Many Taxpayer Subsidies - The New York Times.url 128 B · 0 downloads

 

As I said, that isn’t cash. It’s counting the new infrastructure (such as roads) required around new Walmart stores, employees getting public assistance, tax credits, etc.

 

Not cash given to Walmart by the government to open stores. Not even remotely relatable to the nearly $1B in cash equivalent the Bills are receiving.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

10 hours ago, mrags said:

Ok. But everything you just stated also applies to the Bills and the new stadium AND, they are also charging PSLs. Again. You can’t say that all these companies are getting breaks and profiting but then not include the Bills. And you can add Sams Club and Costco all you want. That’s a membership fee. But if you really want to include them and their $50-100 membership fees to prove your point then I guess I’ll just concede and that you refuse to listen to any argument. So have a good day. 

 

I just love these whining folks who are always clutching their pearls because the Bills are getting help building a new stadium and OHMAGERD taxpayers are footing part of the bill. SO WHAT?!?! The Bills ARE WNY, period. It's a great investment for the region and thankfully all of those in the negotiations are pro public stadium financing.