New stadium cost goes up from $1.4 billion to $1.54 billion.

[Matt_In_NH]

30 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Yes. Bills are a business.  It's more money squeezed out of ticket holders so the owner/company can avoid taking on debt.  Essentially the STHer's take on the debt burden so the Bills don't have to.

 

That's what PSLs are for--simply to shift the "private funding" from the owner to the fans.  Their sole purpose.  If it was just because the Bills wanted more revenue, they would charge a PSL new stadium or not.  So this extra revenue would never otherwise be "in the owner's pocket".

 

PSLs are the way an owner says to fans "you pay for it".  Pretending otherwise is being disingenuous.

 

The only thing I disagree with you on is that it is the Pegula's money once fans make the choice to pay it.   If no one buys the PSL's, what happens?   The Pegula's are stuck with it, that wont happen of course because there is demand for their product.  They are supplying something that is demanded by the market and basic economics says the demand will consume the supply.  You could take a second job for the sole purpose of paying for your PSL....same reasoning, the sole purpose of the second job is to fund extra thing you want to have.  It is nice to be a billionaire and be able to make decisions like that without doing all that much but it really is the same thing.  We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that.  

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

 

The only thing I disagree with you on is that it is the Pegula's money once fans make the choice to pay it.   If no one buys the PSL's, what happens?   The Pegula's are stuck with it, that wont happen of course because there is demand for their product.  They are supplying something that is demanded by the market and basic economics says the demand will consume the supply.  You could take a second job for the sole purpose of paying for your PSL....same reasoning, the sole purpose of the second job is to fund extra thing you want to have.  It is nice to be a billionaire and be able to make decisions like that without doing all that much but it really is the same thing.  We are just going to have to agree to disagree on that.  

 

PSE demanded the new stadium.  Fans just buy tickets.  There is no demand for PSLs...except by PSE.

 

If there was no stadium, there would have been no PSLs.  PSLs are not necessary to fund this stadium.  PSE could simply charge fans for tickets, and not also for their (Bills) new stadium. 

[Matt_In_NH]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

There is no demand for PSLs

Lets see if they sell

[mrags]

5 hours ago, nucci said:

I remember Ralph Wilson saying PSLs would never work in Buffalo. He may have been a bad owner but he was a smart man. Guess we'll see soon

 

2 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

and he was right. It will be disastrous here

 

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

It will work as long as the Bills can put a winning product on the field that can compete for a Super Bowl. But if that changes then look to the 1970's, 1984, 1985 levels of attendance. Pressure is on Terry, and it will really be on Beane and McDermott to keep them a winning team.

FYI, for those of you that are unaware. They CURRENTLY do charge for PSLs in some seats in Highmark now. It’s worded differently but they do have it already. It’s been going on a while now. This doesn’t mean I’m arguing for or against any of your points. Simply stating they currently have PSLs now in the clubs. People do/did/will pay them. 
 

My argument is I think this is all fine considering the state of the franchise, the cost of PSLs, and ticket prices. Like @Greggsaid, the pressure will be on to continue to field a winning team. We shall see how that plays out over time. Hopefully not for a long while and likely until after Allen is gone/retired. 

[mrags]

2 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Has it been brought up yet that Pegula is on the hook for overruns?

 

On the other hand, PSL's are like a user fee. Those attending games share in the cost of construction.

I generally agree. However the issue with that is this:

 

after the stadium is completely built. After all the season tickets have been sold. After the state/county, and Pegula have recouped all their debt they payed to build this stadium. Will the Bills continue to charge PSL fees for new season ticket members down the line? If the answer is yes, then it’s not just for the cost of construction. Now it is a money grab by the already rich billionaire owner. 
 

and that’s fine. I’m ok with it. Again, he’s a smart and shrewd businessman for a reason. But let’s not make the excuse that it’s just for the construction costs. Because eventually this thing will be paid off and incoming PSLs will just be for putting gas in the yacht. 

[SoCal Deek]

35 minutes ago, mrags said:

I generally agree. However the issue with that is this:

 

after the stadium is completely built. After all the season tickets have been sold. After the state/county, and Pegula have recouped all their debt they payed to build this stadium. Will the Bills continue to charge PSL fees for new season ticket members down the line? If the answer is yes, then it’s not just for the cost of construction. Now it is a money grab by the already rich billionaire owner. 
 

and that’s fine. I’m ok with it. Again, he’s a smart and shrewd businessman for a reason. But let’s not make the excuse that it’s just for the construction costs. Because eventually this thing will be paid off and incoming PSLs will just be for putting gas in the yacht. 

Why is it that some on here keep going around and around on this? Every time you buy something at Home Depot, Target, McDonalds, or on Amazon you’re putting ‘gas in the yachts’. I’m not sure why people think the Buffalo Bills are a community center. 

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Why is it that some on here keep going around and around on this? Every time you buy something at Home Depot, Target, McDonalds, or on Amazon you’re putting ‘gas in the yachts’. I’m not sure why people think the Buffalo Bills are a community center. 

Purchasing items at those places is much different than paying $5K for the right to purchase a football ticket. 

[mrags]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Why is it that some on here keep going around and around on this? Every time you buy something at Home Depot, Target, McDonalds, or on Amazon you’re putting ‘gas in the yachts’. I’m not sure why people think the Buffalo Bills are a community center. 

I never said they were. I was simply arguing the point that the PSLs are specifically for construction costs is not true. If it was true, once the debts from building the stadium have been met, the PSLs would no longer be needed. 
 

 

1 minute ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

Home Depot & Target aren't getting $1 billion in taxpayer subsidies for a new building though

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

7 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

Home Depot & Target aren't getting $1 billion in taxpayer subsidies for a new building though

 

 

 

Maybe they are, and maybe they aren’t. These large companies get all sorts of subsidies to locate their stores and warehouses in communities all over America. For example, Car dealerships get tons of them, because the local auto center brings in $ millions each year in sales tax revenue. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Lets see if they sell

 There is a demand for tickets, not the PSL. that should be pretty obvious. 

 

STHers won't be given a choice to get seasons without PSL. 

[John Gianelli]

According to an online inflation calculator, $22,000,000 in 1972 is worth $158,336,842.11 today. So the cost increase alone for this stadium is only slightly less than what it cost to build the entire stadium in the first place, adjusted for inflation!

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Has it been brought up yet that Pegula is on the hook for overruns?

 

On the other hand, PSL's are like a user fee. Those attending games share in the cost of construction.

 

The ticket is the user fee.  The fans aren't "using" the new stadium.  Its sole tenant is. 

 

Only one class of ticket buyers are being asked to share in the cost of the construction. 

[nucci]

11 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Maybe they are, and maybe they aren’t. These large companies get all sorts of subsidies to locate their stores and warehouses in communities all over America. For example, Car dealerships get tons of them, because the local auto center brings in $ millions each year in sales tax revenue. 

true but I'm not writing a personal check for $2K to the dealership for the right to buy a car.

[mrags]

12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Maybe they are, and maybe they aren’t. These large companies get all sorts of subsidies to locate their stores and warehouses in communities all over America. For example, Car dealerships get tons of them, because the local auto center brings in $ millions each year in sales tax revenue. 

Same topic but the argument geared towards those that would say building downtown wouldn’t benefit the area surrounding it. And I’m not saying you believe this SoCal. Just pointing out that this argument goes against those that believe building the stadium downtown would accomplish nothing for the area.

 

yes, yes, I know. It’s a done deal. Nothing is going to change. I’m aware. 
 

I’ll hop off my soapbox now 

[PromoTheRobot]

1 hour ago, mrags said:

I generally agree. However the issue with that is this:

 

after the stadium is completely built. After all the season tickets have been sold. After the state/county, and Pegula have recouped all their debt they payed to build this stadium. Will the Bills continue to charge PSL fees for new season ticket members down the line? If the answer is yes, then it’s not just for the cost of construction. Now it is a money grab by the already rich billionaire owner. 
 

and that’s fine. I’m ok with it. Again, he’s a smart and shrewd businessman for a reason. But let’s not make the excuse that it’s just for the construction costs. Because eventually this thing will be paid off and incoming PSLs will just be for putting gas in the yacht. 

 

Yes and no. 

 

Let's assume the new stadium has 55,000 season tickets set aside, but only 53,000 sell. If someone buys a seat years later that wasn't part of an initial PSL, then yes, the Bills would charge one.

 

Now say you decide to give up your season tickets a few years from now. In order to buy your seats, a new buyer would have to pay you for your PSL. So yes, they will pay for a PSL but YOU get the money, not the Bills. If I understand the terms correctly.

[Gregg]

Just now, NUT said:

Home field advantage doesn't seem to help a McDermott coached team.

 

0-4 on the road in the playoffs as well.

[Matt_In_NH]

51 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 There is a demand for tickets, not the PSL. that should be pretty obvious. 

 

STHers won't be given a choice to get seasons without PSL. 

But in business demand does not mean someone really wants to pay for it....it means someone is willing to pay for it.

[PromoTheRobot]

1 minute ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

yes but it never works out that way. The PSLs become worthless as an "investment" because of the secondary marketplace

 

If someone down the road wants to buy your season ticket, they have to buy your PSL, don't they?

[mrags]

17 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Yes and no. 

 

Let's assume the new stadium has 55,000 season tickets set aside, but only 53,000 sell. If someone buys a seat years later that wasn't part of an initial PSL, then yes, the Bills would charge one.

 

Now say you decide to give up your season tickets a few years from now. In order to buy your seats, a new buyer would have to pay you for your PSL. So yes, they will pay for a PSL but YOU get the money, not the Bills. If I understand the terms correctly.

We don’t know that yet for sure. If I just cancel my seats, the Bills would definitely benefit from charging double the PSL fees. And again, I’m ok with the business aspect of it. Just not ok with people claiming this is only for stadium construction costs. 

2 minutes ago, SUNY_amherst said:

 

But they won't. What is the incentive for them?

 

They can keep the same seat. That is it. And realistically that incentive is not worth $5,000.
 

If they want to go to every game, they will buy tickets to 8 home games on any of the secondary marketplaces and save $5,000 (and probably get better seats in Nov & Dec). 

 

 

This I disagree with. First. If someone is looking for an investment opportunity they will gladly spend the money because they know they will make it back. 
 

You can absolutely sell your tickets in the secondary market and make back more than what you paid for them. I friend of mine last year sold all but 3 games and not only paid for his entire season, he banked some money for this seasons tix as well as out some away for what he expects to be more increases in tix prices and PSL fees in the future. 

[mrags]

9 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

If someone down the road wants to buy your season ticket, they have to buy your PSL, don't they?

Let’s hope that is an option. But again, that will depends on the market. Just like buying a house at the right time when prices are down as well as interest rates. A buyers market creates a sellers market and vice/Versa. It only works if the team is competitive and promising. If they are 7-10 then I would imagine it’s not going to benefit you much.