The Bills need worse recievers

[2003Contenders]

OK, I'll play along.

 

I get the mind-set that Allen is such a transitional QB that he makes all of his WRs better. Pretty much every receiver that has played with Allen has posted career-best numbers. In reality, what quality receiver has he ever had to throw the ball to BESIDES Diggs? Yes, Brown and Beasley posted quality numbers with Allen and the Bills -- but what they do after leaving the Bills? Nada -- both wound up on the trash heap and were available for free late last season.

 

Long story short, I don't think the Bills NEED an elite #2 to play opposite Diggs -- and the money spent on such a player would be better spent elsewhere, I believe. Of course, having a stud #2 would certainly help. They just need a reliable target who can haul in more than 50% of his targets (yes, I am talking to you Davis).

[Pirate Angel]

Miami gave him a contract that the Chiefs couldnt match

[Zerovoltz]

On 4/1/2023 at 7:10 PM, Zerovoltz said:

That isn't a typo.

 

Josh Allen is elite now.  Diggs served his purpose, much like Tyreek Hill served his in Kansas City.  They gave shooting star QB's reliable, talented targets they could confidently throw to, helping to establish confidence and develop the QB's mental game.  

 

Hill complained after being traded (at least he watied to make this public when he was already gone) that he wasn't being focused on enough, or getting enough targets...etc.

The Chiefs traded him away, used the assets and cap space to improve other parts of the team, AND then went out and performed even better on offense.  I strongly believe that a reason why this happend is becasue Mahomes was entirely free to run each and every play with the idea that making the most optimal throw is what mattered.  Not to massage an ego or placate a guy wanting a larger role etc.  You can make a strong case KC's WR room isn't any great shakes.  I'd agree with that.  They don't need to be.  Zach Wilson isn't our QB....and he's not the Bills QB either.  Josh Freaking Allen is.  Allen doesn't need elite, high cots WR's to shine now.   

 

I know the Bills are committed to this season as an all in, all chips to the middle of the table type season....that's fine.  I wouldn't even say that it's a bad idea....but I think it would be better if you moved Diggs for all you could possibly get, go sign a couple vets who need to prove it, who have maybe some low self esteem because they've fallen out of favor due to injury etc....get a couple mid level guys who you know are good pros.  Let ALLEN run the team.. let HIM dictate the best place for the ball to go.  It's his job to run as efficient, well managed offense as he possibly can....not make sure pouting WR's see the ball X number of times a game.

 

Use the resources to add to your team in areas that Allen doesn't directly impact, like the defense etc.  If the guys work out...they move on, sign big deal somewhere else...and you reload with a couple more dudes who need to prove it again.  There is never a shortage of these guys and they overplay their contracts consistantly.  Plus, you'll be supplimenting these WR's with WR's you draft who are cheap and cost controlled.  

 

ALLEN is it. He's why you are 3rd best odds to win Super Bowl this upcoming season.. LEAN INTO IT.

I stand by this now as much as I did back in April.  (and no, this was not an April Fool's joke)

[The Wiz]

37 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

I stand by this now as much as I did back in April.  (and no, this was not an April Fool's joke)

I missed this post apparently, but you left out a single word that makes all the difference in how you feel.

 

Kelce

 

Would you feel that if Kelce was traded last year the success would have been as great as it was with the WRs you had?

Edited June 23, 2023 by The Wiz

[Dr.Sack]

If you can work the cap it’s no big deal having a great WE. Add a possible star rookie TE and you get better. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Zerovoltz said:

I stand by this now as much as I did back in April.  (and no, this was not an April Fool's joke)

 

You seriously suck for bumping a horrible April Fool's joke.

 

Is it scaring you right now that Buffalo has a significantly better roster than last year (when they were widely considered the best roster in the NFL) and are likely not to suffer from as many "hands-of-God" events emotionally affecting the team?

 

In case you're wondering, I'm referring to 2 generational blizzards/snow storms and the unprecedented event of a teammates dying on the field.

 

That's leaving out a ton of stuff that I can educate you with if you want... but why don't you just figure it out.

 

This thread was stupid. Why did you bump it? Trepidation?

[CincyBillsFan]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:10 PM, Zerovoltz said:

That isn't a typo.

 

Josh Allen is elite now.  Diggs served his purpose, much like Tyreek Hill served his in Kansas City.  They gave shooting star QB's reliable, talented targets they could confidently throw to, helping to establish confidence and develop the QB's mental game.  

 

Hill complained after being traded (at least he watied to make this public when he was already gone) that he wasn't being focused on enough, or getting enough targets...etc.

The Chiefs traded him away, used the assets and cap space to improve other parts of the team, AND then went out and performed even better on offense.  I strongly believe that a reason why this happend is becasue Mahomes was entirely free to run each and every play with the idea that making the most optimal throw is what mattered.  Not to massage an ego or placate a guy wanting a larger role etc.  You can make a strong case KC's WR room isn't any great shakes.  I'd agree with that.  They don't need to be.  Zach Wilson isn't our QB....and he's not the Bills QB either.  Josh Freaking Allen is.  Allen doesn't need elite, high cots WR's to shine now.   

 

I know the Bills are committed to this season as an all in, all chips to the middle of the table type season....that's fine.  I wouldn't even say that it's a bad idea....but I think it would be better if you moved Diggs for all you could possibly get, go sign a couple vets who need to prove it, who have maybe some low self esteem because they've fallen out of favor due to injury etc....get a couple mid level guys who you know are good pros.  Let ALLEN run the team.. let HIM dictate the best place for the ball to go.  It's his job to run as efficient, well managed offense as he possibly can....not make sure pouting WR's see the ball X number of times a game.

 

Use the resources to add to your team in areas that Allen doesn't directly impact, like the defense etc.  If the guys work out...they move on, sign big deal somewhere else...and you reload with a couple more dudes who need to prove it again.  There is never a shortage of these guys and they overplay their contracts consistantly.  Plus, you'll be supplimenting these WR's with WR's you draft who are cheap and cost controlled.  

 

ALLEN is it. He's why you are 3rd best odds to win Super Bowl this upcoming season.. LEAN INTO IT.

The Bills have been using the lions share of their resources to try to create an elite playoff defense and it has failed.  This has included grossly neglecting, until this year, their Offensive line.

 

The Bills #1 need going into this season was to improve their O line.  It was by far the worst O line of the leading Super Bowl contenders. 

 

The Chiefs were able to part with Hill in part because they had a first ballot HOF TE that is one of the top 5 offensive players at any position in the NFL.  Who is the Bills equivalent of Kelsey that Allen could fall back on in the event they part ways with Diggs?

 

 

 

 

[Zerovoltz]

6 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You seriously suck for bumping a horrible April Fool's joke.

 

Is it scaring you right now that Buffalo has a significantly better roster than last year (when they were widely considered the best roster in the NFL) and are likely not to suffer from as many "hands-of-God" events emotionally affecting the team?

 

In case you're wondering, I'm referring to 2 generational blizzards/snow storms and the unprecedented event of a teammates dying on the field.

 

That's leaving out a ton of stuff that I can educate you with if you want... but why don't you just figure it out.

 

This thread was stupid. Why did you bump it? Trepidation?

 

Since you ask...I think the Bills are RIGHT THERE to be a contender again for the SB.  I consider the Bills the biggest obstacle for KC to get back...and there is no reason why the Bills shouldn't be considered a favorite again this year.  

 

I do think the Bills season, that got off to such a great start, got derailed by having to deal with so much emotionally.  Von getting hurt also seemed to take some of the wind out of the sails.

 

But....the main point was, and still is....to emphasize Josh Allen has become the elite QB that does not need to depend on star WR/TE/RB at this point.  Trading for Diggs at the time, was a great move.  It clearly helped....and Diggs reamains an elite WR that will still be a great player.....but Allen doesn't need that now.  You can put "good" WR's around Allen, and Allen is going to make plays, get the ball to the optimal target, etc.  

 

I see some have mentioned Kelce as the reason Mahomes was able to shine with no Hill and a hodge podge of WR's.  It's a fair point.  I would say that at this point, Mahomes is at a level where when Kelce declines/retires....Mahomes is going to make plays and find the optimal throw.  

 

When you have a QB who facilitates the offense efficiently, makes plays, and one who you have confidence in to deliver the ball to the best spot play after play...the need for a highly paid, WR1, is diminished.  And....might even be better off for the whole team if you don't have a WR who demands X throws his way....even if those aren't always the most efficient or best options play to play.  

 

At this point, I'd trust Allen to be every bit as good or better than he's been if you changed out Diggs for someone like .....Allen Robinson.....or Darnell Mooney.......JuJu....and so on.  

 

All this of course is just my opinion....but IMO...Bills would be better off (at this point or soon) spending less at WR...and more on Oline and D.  Allen is that QB that will operate well and elevate the WR's out there.  Get him the best line money can by and spend the rest on D, where Allen can't directly impact performance.  

[Freddie's Dead]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:10 PM, Zerovoltz said:

That isn't a typo.

 

Yes, it is.  The word is spelled "receivers".

[Nephilim17]

Once Stefon is past his prime, I would be good with spending more money to get elite O-linemen and settle for good but not great receivers. If there is to be a compromise — and managing an NFL roster when you're paying an elite QB demands it — then that's the one I'll make.

 

That said, I'm reasonably confident that when that time comes Kincaid will be elite. 

[Jon in Pasadena]

So... brainpower is measured in voltz ?

 

(To any EE's in the audience:  I know that would actually be brain potential, not power. I think it still works in this case.)

[SCBills]

5 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Once Stefon is past his prime, I would be good with spending more money to get elite O-linemen and settle for good but not great receivers. If there is to be a compromise — and managing an NFL roster when you're paying an elite QB demands it — then that's the one I'll make.

 

That said, I'm reasonably confident that when that time comes Kincaid will be elite. 

This is essentially what the Chiefs have done for Mahomes.  

 

Remains to be seen what it looks like without Kelce, given he’s an ironman, but if you give a QB like Mahomes/Allen time to throw, and have NFL quality WR’s .. good things are going to happen. 

[LABILLBACKER]

Voltz, is this some strange form of subliminal sabotage?

[BADOLBILZ]

23 hours ago, Nephilim17 said:

Once Stefon is past his prime, I would be good with spending more money to get elite O-linemen and settle for good but not great receivers. If there is to be a compromise — and managing an NFL roster when you're paying an elite QB demands it — then that's the one I'll make.

 

That said, I'm reasonably confident that when that time comes Kincaid will be elite. 

 

 

The Chiefs have done both for Mahomes.

 

The greatest common thread in Andy Reid's career failures was actually not having enough WR talent around his QB.    Easily the greatest criticism of the Eagles organization while he was HC there.

 

And it continued early on with the Chiefs.......so for about the first 18 years of his HC career that was mostly the case..........the one season he had an elite QB with an elite WR at the time was when his Eagles acquired TO, and subsequently, McNabb played like an MVP and they went to the SB.

 

That all changed over the course of 2016-2018 when Kelce emerged, then Hill and then they gave Sammy Watkins that 4 year $64M deal.  

 

They stacked the room and won a SB in 2019.

 

Even now they have Kelce and two second round picks from the last 2 drafts and a 1st rounder from 2021 that they acquired in trade in their receiving group. 

 

So yes they have more invested in the OL but they still have more invested in terms of capital and draft picks at receiving positions than the Bills have as well.

 

[Alphadawg7]

Oh joy, this got bumped up 🙄

[Rigotz]

On 6/23/2023 at 7:52 AM, Zerovoltz said:

I see some have mentioned Kelce as the reason Mahomes was able to shine with no Hill and a hodge podge of WR's.  It's a fair point.  I would say that at this point, Mahomes is at a level where when Kelce declines/retires....Mahomes is going to make plays and find the optimal throw.  

 

This seems like an extremely overconfident statement. I usually like your posts, but this one ... yeesh.

 

KC has arguably the greatest receiving Tight End of all time ... but you feel confident that if he was taken away, Mahomes would still shine? What makes you feel confident in this if you've never seen it?

 

Aaron Rodgers BEAT Mahomes twice in a row for the MVP in 2020 and 2021, then his best WR was taken away in 2022 and he was average that season.

 

How are you so confident that the same wouldn't happen to Mahomes? Is Mahomes that much better than Rodgers and everyone else?

[Zerovoltz]

15 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

This seems like an extremely overconfident statement. I usually like your posts, but this one ... yeesh.

 

KC has arguably the greatest receiving Tight End of all time ... but you feel confident that if he was taken away, Mahomes would still shine? What makes you feel confident in this if you've never seen it?

 

Aaron Rodgers BEAT Mahomes twice in a row for the MVP in 2020 and 2021, then his best WR was taken away in 2022 and he was average that season.

 

How are you so confident that the same wouldn't happen to Mahomes? Is Mahomes that much better than Rodgers and everyone else?

 

If you look at those seasons, Rodgers threw to Adams 169 times in 2020 and 149 times in 2021.  the next most targeted guys.  In those same 2 seasons, Tyreek Hill was targeted 135 and 159 times.  

 

When Mahomes lost Hill, he efficiently was able to distribute those lost targets to other players.  He actually had a career high comp% last season, without Hill.  as well as higher Y/A and YPG.  His QBR was up from 62 to 77, his QB Rating was up from 98.5 to 105.  NONE of Mahomes metrics got worse....they all got better after losing Tyreek Hill, who he threw to more than anyone on the team.  He threw for over 500 MORE yards, 4 MORE TD's  One fewer INT....

 

When Rodgers lost his leading WR (Adams)  ....all his metric got worse....

 

And so you might say that doesn't account for Kelce being gone....Rodger didn't have a Kelce.  We won't know for sure what Mahomes will do once Kelce declines/retires....but based on losing a top 5 WR and all those targets....Mahomes didn't have any trouble adjusting and distributing.  I'm confident that Mahomes will continue to play at a very high level.  I believe Allen is that same kind of player at this point.  If Diggs got hurt, holds out etc....Allen is going to deliver big plays, and get the ball into the right place at the right time most of the time.  

[90sBills]

59 minutes ago, Rigotz said:

 

This seems like an extremely overconfident statement. I usually like your posts, but this one ... yeesh.

 

KC has arguably the greatest receiving Tight End of all time ... but you feel confident that if he was taken away, Mahomes would still shine? What makes you feel confident in this if you've never seen it?

 

Aaron Rodgers BEAT Mahomes twice in a row for the MVP in 2020 and 2021, then his best WR was taken away in 2022 and he was average that season.

 

How are you so confident that the same wouldn't happen to Mahomes? Is Mahomes that much better than Rodgers and everyone else?

This same argument was made when Mahomes lost Hill. We all know what happened. Kelce was a great player before Mahomes. With Mahomes he’s first ballot HOF material. Hate to admit it since the Chiefs are the biggest obstacle to the Bills reaching their goal but Mahomes is just that good. After Kelce retires there will be other guys that Mahomes (along with Reid’s offense) will elevate. Other team fans will say if Mahomes doesn’t have so and so he won’t be as productive. All the while missing the point that Mahomes is the reason his receivers are productive. 
 

Here’s hoping that Allen can get to that level. Disagree with Voltz that he’s there already. Doesn’t mean he can’t get there eventually. 

[HappyDays]

15 minutes ago, Zerovoltz said:

When Mahomes lost Hill, he efficiently was able to distribute those lost targets to other players.  He actually had a career high comp% last season, without Hill.  as well as higher Y/A and YPG.  His QBR was up from 62 to 77, his QB Rating was up from 98.5 to 105.  NONE of Mahomes metrics got worse....they all got better after losing Tyreek Hill, who he threw to more than anyone on the team.  He threw for over 500 MORE yards, 4 MORE TD's  One fewer INT....

 

That's more about Mahomes' play in 2021 than his play in 2022. As you know there were periods of several consecutive games in 2021 where Mahomes completely sucked. He was forcing throws downfield, abandoning the pocket early, had more frequent poor/lazy footwork; a lot of his bad habits from Texas Tech reared their ugly head. Temporarily he stopped being the god that he's been every other year of his career. The last 31 minutes of the AFCCG that year was a microcosm of his season.

 

So it's disingenuous to compare his stats from 2021 to 2022. If Mahomes had played as well as he did in 2022 but with Tyreek Hill also added to the mix, no question it would have been an even better season. Losing Hill didn't make Mahomes a better QB. Mahomes himself did that by getting his standard of play back on track. Losing Hill changed the way Reid designed and called the offense. And considering he's one of the greatest offensive minds in NFL history and is used to designing highly productive offenses without elite WR talent this was an easy task.

 

But you're of course avoiding the whole point which is that he still has arguably the greatest pass catching TE of all time as his primary weapon.

[PBF81]

On 4/1/2023 at 8:10 PM, Zerovoltz said:

Allen doesn't need elite, high cots WR's to shine now.   

 

No QB should need the best WRs in the league to shine if they're any good, which Allen is.  He might need more mentoring on the importance of the much higher-percentage short-medium passing game, but otherwise he has what he needs, particularly with Kincaid.  

 

There's some misperception here that in order to succeed a QB seems to need two of the five top WRs in the league or the like.  

 

Look at what Brady did, often with incredibly average WRs.  In fact, he took very mediocre WRs like Welker, Branch, Givens, Brown, Caldwell, and Edelman, a 7th-round draft pick from a nothing school and made his living with them, largely.  Sure, he had Moss for a couple of years, and Gronk, a TE who was often injured and only posted four 1,000+ yard seasons contrary to some perceptions, but generally speaking Brady didn't have top WRs.  

 

Favre, Marino, and a whole bunch of others didn't always have more than very good WRs, and yet they were at the top of the league in passing regularly.  

 

The problem with us is that you have to use the players that you have optimally, and that isn't something that we've seen to date with Allen at QB.  Whether that changes this season remains to be seen.  But if not, at some point we have to quit blaming the WRs or bust draftees.  

 

Judging by last season, Dorsey's got his work cut out for him.