The Walls be Closing

[Kemp]

35 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Interesting twist here since Desantis has a conflict. This is wild. 
 

Trump is scum but the the energy to indict him for paying off a cheap tramp he banged while actual violent crime is being decriminalized in that district isn’t going to be mistaken as a genuine pursuit of a better community. 
 

 

 

Maybe we should wait to see what the indictments are.

[Doc]

9 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Irrelevant.

 

1. Biden’s case is more like Pence’s and Hillary’s than Trump’s.  Trump’s actions post-discovery of the documents are classic obstruction of justice and even the most junior prosecutor could prove it with their eyes closed.

2. The GOP is going to do what the GOP is going to do. They don’t need a pretense for impeaching Biden because he wore the wrong color tie or whatever else they want.

 

3. Whether or not someone is guilty of a crime shouldn’t be decided by whether or not some other person is guilty of a crime.

 

Exactly.  They push the documents thing, they'll impeach Joke for the same thing.  And make no mistake, it's the same thing.
 

Strike that, what Joke did was worse.  He had classified documents from his time as a Senator.  He certainly was not allowed to have those and certainly was not allowed to steal them from a SCIF.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Doc

[Kemp]

24 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Trump broke their brains.  That's the worst crime of all.

 

Person, woman, man, camera, TV.

2 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Exactly.  They push the documents thing, they'll impeach Joke for the same thing.  And make no mistake, it's the same thing.

 

No.

Only Trump's involves obstruction and perjury.

[SCBills]

40 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Interesting twist here since Desantis has a conflict. This is wild. 
 

Trump is scum but the the energy to indict him for paying off a cheap tramp he banged while actual violent crime is being decriminalized in that district isn’t going to be mistaken as a genuine pursuit of a better community. 
 

 

Trump would rather commit seppuku than let DeSantis protect him and become the story by not extraditing him. 
 

Trump knows this was a political gift from Bragg.  
 

He’ll pretend to be upset.  He’s undoubtedly overjoyed right now. 

[Doc]

6 minutes ago, Kemp said:

Only Trump's involves obstruction and perjury.

 

Once they found the cache of papers in November and then found more, it was the same thing.  There is no hiding behind "my underlings did it."  But what's worse is that Joke wasn't allowed to steal documents from a SCIF as a Senator.  Again the Rs will impeach Joke if the Dems push this one and do you trust the now Independent Sinema and on thin ice Manchin to save Joke from a conviction?

[ChiGoose]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Once they found the cache of papers in November and then found more, it was the same thing.  There is no hiding behind "my underlings did it."  But what's worse is that Joke wasn't allowed to steal documents from a SCIF as a Senator.  Again the Rs will impeach Joke if the Dems push this one and do you trust the now Independent Sinema and on thin ice Manchin to save Joke from a conviction?

You have both the facts and the law wrong. And also whether the GOP will impeach Biden is irrelevant to Trump’s potential guilt. 
 

People whose conduct was bad but would likely win in court: Hillary, Biden, Pence. 
 

People whose conduct was so bad that they would likely lose in court: Trump 

[Warcodered]

8 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Once they found the cache of papers in November and then found more, it was the same thing.  There is no hiding behind "my underlings did it."  But what's worse is that Joke wasn't allowed to steal documents from a SCIF as a Senator.  Again the Rs will impeach Joke if the Dems push this one and do you trust the now Independent Sinema and on thin ice Manchin to save Joke from a conviction?

It's not the same Biden's organization found document and turned them, found more and then turned them in. Trump told them he'd turned everything in and the FBI had to get a warrant to search and find everything, it's not the same at all.

[Doc]

13 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

You have both the facts and the law wrong. And also whether the GOP will impeach Biden is irrelevant to Trump’s potential guilt. 
 

People whose conduct was bad but would likely win in court: Hillary, Biden, Pence. 
 

People whose conduct was so bad that they would likely lose in court: Trump 

 

No I don't.  Joke cannot be in possession of classified documents, much less for 16+ years and from his time as a Senator, where he would have had to steal them from a secure location.  Much less keeping them in insecure locations like his garage.  And other places (and places and places).  And failing to report all of them when the first set was discovered. 

 

And true it's irrelevant to Trump's guilt.  But the question is whether the Dems want the leader of their party impeached and convicted with the election a year away?  Prod the bear and find out.  Please.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Doc

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

24 minutes ago, Kemp said:

 

Maybe we should wait to see what the indictments are.

Fair point!!
 

This was never ‘a crime happened… who did it?”

 

but instead “find some way to prosecute this guy”

Who knows what they went with 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Fair point!!
 

This was never ‘a crime happened… who did it?”

 

but instead “find some way to prosecute this guy”

Who knows what they went with 

 

I'll wait to see what the verdict is.  Again a GJ can indict a ham sandwich but the ham sandwich isn't always found guilty.

[ChiGoose]

10 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

No I don't.  Joke cannot be in possession of classified documents, much less for 16+ years and from his time as a Senator, where he would have had to steal them from a secure location.  Much less keeping them in insecure locations like his garage.  And other places.  And failing to report all of them when the first set was discovered. 

 

And true it's irrelevant to Trump's guilt.  But the question is whether the Dems want the leader of their party impeached and convicted with the election a year away?

Mere possession of the documents is almost never prosecuted. All the defense would have to do is establish a shred of doubt that the defendant specifically knew the documents were there. Cases that are successfully prosecuted involve the defendant knowing they had the documents and refusing to comply with the law. 
 

Hillary was not charged because, even though the FBI found her to be reckless, they did not believe they could prove she intentionally put the classified documents on her server. 
 

Likewise, both Biden and Pence could successfully argue that neither of them personally packed away the documents and there isn’t sufficient evidence to show that they knew that the documents were in their homes and/or were classified. I know you’ll scoff at this, but this is a pretty easy case for a defense attorney to make. 
 

What makes Trump’s case different is what he did once the documents were discovered. Instead of cooperating with authorities, he obstructed and lied. He even went so far as to send them a letter they he had returned them all when he had not. In addition to that, it’s been reported that some of the documents were stored in his office desk drawer intermixed with documents dated post-presidency.
 

All of this is damning evidence that shows Trump knew he had the documents and accessed them post-presidency. It would be difficult for a defense to overcome. Additionally, it also supports at least one additional charge of obstruction of justice in addition to the documents charge. 
 

And I cannot stress this enough: what the GOP does to Biden is irrelevant to all of the above. 

Edited March 31, 2023 by ChiGoose

[Doc]

Just now, ChiGoose said:

Mere possession of the documents is almost never prosecuted. All the defense would have to do is establish a shred of doubt that the defendant specifically knew the documents were there. Cases that are successfully prosecuted involve the defendant knowing they had the documents and refusing to comply with the law. 
 

Hillary was not charged because, even though the FBI found her to be reckless, they did not believe they could prove she intentionally put the classified documents on her server. 
 

Likewise, both Biden and Pence could successfully argue that neither of them personally packed away the documents and there isn’t sufficient evidence to show that they knew that the documents were in their homes and classified. I know you’ll scoff at this, but this is a pretty easy case for a defense attorney to make. 
 

What makes Trump’s case different is what he did once the documents were discovered. Instead of cooperating with authorities, he obstructed and lied. He even went so far as to send them a letter they he had returned them all when he had not. In addition to that, it’s been reported that some of the documents were stored in his office desk drawer intermixed with documents dated post-presidency.
 

All of this is damning evidence that shows Trump knew he had the documents and accessed them post-presidency. It would be difficult for a defense to overcome. Additionally, it also supports at least one additional charge of obstruction of justice in addition to the documents charge. 
 

And I cannot stress this enough: what the GOP does to Biden is irrelevant to all of the above. 

 

And what happened once the documents were discovered in Biden's home in November, secretly I might add?  Were his homes raided?  No because if they were, they'd have found the other sets of documents.  So failing to disclose those additional documents in November is obstruction.  Claiming "I didn't know they were there because my underlings took the classified documents they had no business handling for me and put them in my garage among other places" would be the stupidest defense possible. 

 

But since he's a sitting President, he can't be tried.  He can however be impeached.  And again the question Dems need to ask themselves is "is it worth pursuing Trump over this if it costs Biden his chance to run again"?

 

BTW, I find this case hilarious since Congress has, or at least had, a slush fund to quietly pay off sexual harassment/assault victims who undoubtedly signed NDAs. 

[ChiGoose]

Just now, Doc said:

 

And what happened once the documents were discovered in Biden's home in November, secretly I might add?  Were his homes raided?  No because if they were, they'd have found the other sets of documents.  So failing to disclose those additional documents in November is obstruction.  Claiming "I didn't know they were there because my underlings took the classified documents they had no business handling for me and put them in my garage among other places" would be the stupidest defense possible. 

 

But since he's a sitting President, he can't be tried.  He can however be impeached.  And again the question Dems need to ask themselves is "is it worth pursuing Trump over this if it costs Biden his chance to run again"?

You’re conflating notifying the authorities with notifying the public. 
 

Biden’s team immediately alerted law enforcement and began cooperating with them from the start. Originally that took the form of an internal investigation but when they found additional documents, they changed it and had law enforcement take over the searches.
 

At no point that we are aware of did the Biden team refuse to do what they were asked by law enforcement. Unlike the Trump investigation, there were no court filings between law enforcement and Biden’s team because they were cooperating. There was no need for a raid because Biden was working with law enforcement, not against them like Trump.
 

Despite your incorrect claim, there is no evidence to support an obstruction charge. And from what is known publicly, they case would never make it to trial. It’d be dismissed before it ever got to that point. 
 

It is very fair to criticize Biden for concealing this from the public as long as he did, but you’re just factually wrong when you say that he concealed it from law enforcement. You’re entire argument is based on that mistake and falls apart once the real facts are applied. 

[Warcodered]

13 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

And what happened once the documents were discovered in Biden's home in November, secretly I might add?  Were his homes raided?  No because if they were, they'd have found the other sets of documents.  So failing to disclose those additional documents in November is obstruction.  Claiming "I didn't know they were there because my underlings took the classified documents they had no business handling for me and put them in my garage among other places" would be the stupidest defense possible. 

 

But since he's a sitting President, he can't be tried.  He can however be impeached.  And again the question Dems need to ask themselves is "is it worth pursuing Trump over this if it costs Biden his chance to run again"?

 

BTW, I find this case hilarious since Congress has, or at least had, a slush fund to quietly pay off sexual harassment/assault victims who undoubtedly signed NDAs. 

Congress is free to try and Impeach Biden over this if they feel like it though the Republicans don't control the Senate, and with how McCarthy's Speaker confirmation went I'm not sure how well it would even start in the House.

[Kemp]

33 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Once they found the cache of papers in November and then found more, it was the same thing.  There is no hiding behind "my underlings did it."  But what's worse is that Joke wasn't allowed to steal documents from a SCIF as a Senator.  Again the Rs will impeach Joke if the Dems push this one and do you trust the now Independent Sinema and on thin ice Manchin to save Joke from a conviction?

 

Those are all odd words but it doesn't change the fact that Biden (and Pence) turned over docs immediately when it became an issue.

Trump denied having them a couple of times even after subpoenas. 

He told his lawyers he had turned in all of the docs when he hadn't. The lawyers relayed that info to the court. His lawyers have since been questioned under oath about what Trump told them. They can either lose their licenses and be charged or rat him out. I wonder what they'll do.

Judging by what Trump said on TV to Hannity and by the breaking of lawyer-client privilege, I'm guessing he still has some Top Secret docs. 

That you think Manchin and Sinema will become part of this story shows just how out of touch you are from what is transpiring.

I go back and forth about whether you actually believe the things you post here. 

[Doc]

8 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

You’re conflating notifying the authorities with notifying the public. 
 

Biden’s team immediately alerted law enforcement and began cooperating with them from the start. Originally that took the form of an internal investigation but when they found additional documents, they changed it and had law enforcement take over the searches.
 

At no point that we are aware of did the Biden team refuse to do what they were asked by law enforcement. Unlike the Trump investigation, there were no court filings between law enforcement and Biden’s team because they were cooperating. There was no need for a raid because Biden was working with law enforcement, not against them like Trump.
 

Despite your incorrect claim, there is no evidence to support an obstruction charge. And from what is known publicly, they case would never make it to trial. It’d be dismissed before it ever got to that point. 
 

It is very fair to criticize Biden for concealing this from the public as long as he did, but you’re just factually wrong when you say that he concealed it from law enforcement. You’re entire argument is based on that mistake and falls apart once the real facts are applied. 

 

Were all classified documents turned over in November?  No they were not.  Worse yet they were kept haphazardly in wholly insecure locations where people with no business seeing them could have accessed them, most notable his equally corrupt idiot son.  There are any number of charges that could be filed against Joke but again since he's a sitting President, nothing can happen to him legally.  So again if the Dems want to pursue their political witch hunt against Trump WRT his classified documents, they're going to see Joke impeached.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Doc

[Joe Ferguson forever]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Were all classified documents turned over in November?  No they were not.  Worse yet they were kept haphazardly in wholly insecure locations where people with no business seeing them could have accessed them.  There are any number of charges that could be filed against Joke but again since he's a sitting President, nothing can happen to him legally.  So again if the Dems want to pursue their political witch hunt against Trump WRT his classified documents, they're going to see Joke impeached.

Keep dreaming.  Better yet, wake the hell up

[Kemp]

6 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Were all classified documents turned over in November?  No they were not.  Worse yet they were kept haphazardly in wholly insecure locations where people with no business seeing them could have accessed them, most notable his equally corrupt idiot son.  There are any number of charges that could be filed against Joke but again since he's a sitting President, nothing can happen to him legally.  So again if the Dems want to pursue their political witch hunt against Trump WRT his classified documents, they're going to see Joke impeached.

 

Your argument is that Biden did it, too. That's it. You don't even offer up a defense for anything Trump does.

How many times does a man have to be caught stealing before you understand he's scum. I'd never heard of anyone being ordered to not be involved in charities because they stole from those charities. There probably are some others, I suppose, but it's piece of ***** behavior.

It's a different set of circumstances with Biden and Pence, plus a lot of things will come out in these prosecutions that won't have comparables.

Trump put himself in this position. He would have been smarter to never enter into politics and continue on his life of grifting and just play with an endless amount of lawsuits, but he couldn't stand being goofed on by Obama at a public dinner.

The biggest problem America now faces is that the Republican Party and people like you have followed Trump into the rabbit hole. The Dems are almost as crooked on the stealing money front, but they're not anti-democracy. 

It's scary to the rest of us that the Trump folks are now openly anti woman, black, Jewish, Islam, and anyone not white Christian male, but it's happening in many countries, now, kind of like in the 1920's. Don't you at least find it uncomfortable that you're on the same team as Nazis in America, or is that not repugnant to you?

 

On a side note, it's a bit weird that you can't write Biden's name and instead try and behave like Trump and think up nicknames. I suppose you fancy yourself as clever. 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Kemp said:

Your argument is that Biden did it, too. That's it. You don't even offer up a defense for anything Trump does.

How many times does a man have to be caught stealing before you understand he's scum. I'd never heard of anyone being ordered to not be involved in charities because they stole from those charities. There probably are some others, I suppose, but it's piece of ***** behavior.

It's a different set of circumstances with Biden and Pence, plus a lot of things will come out in these prosecutions that won't have comparables.

Trump put himself in this position. He would have been smarter to never enter into politics and continue on his life of grifting and just play with an endless amount of lawsuits, but he couldn't stand being goofed on by Obama at a public dinner.

The biggest problem America now faces is that the Republican Party and people like you have followed Trump into the rabbit hole. The Dems are almost as crooked on the stealing money front, but they're not anti-democracy. 

It's scary to the rest of us that the Trump folks are now openly anti woman, black, Jewish, Islam, and anyone not white Christian male, but it's happening in many countries, now, kind of like in the 1920's. Don't you at least find it uncomfortable that you're on the same team as Nazis in America, or is that not repugnant to you?

 

On a side note, it's a bit weird that you can't write Biden's name and instead try and behave like Trump and think up nicknames. I suppose you fancy yourself as clever. 

 

Trump shouldn't have taken the classified materials either.  But to get all geeked-up over "obstruction!" because his home got raided 2 months after he was told to keep the materials locked-up, which he did, is funny but expected.  So Joke gets zero leeway for having classified materials in wholly insecure locations, for decades, and especially when he would have had to steal them because he was just a Senator.  

[Warcodered]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Were all classified documents turned over in November?  No they were not.  Worse yet they were kept haphazardly in wholly insecure locations where people with no business seeing them could have accessed them, most notable his equally corrupt idiot son.  There are any number of charges that could be filed against Joke but again since he's a sitting President, nothing can happen to him legally.  So again if the Dems want to pursue their political witch hunt against Trump WRT his classified documents, they're going to see Joke impeached.

Most notably there's a purple giraffe, I'm sorry I thought we were just saying random ***** without actually adding anything to what we were saying, his son what? You didn't connect that to anything. They found more documents and turned them in when they found them and then turned over the process of searching, there's no apparent evidence that they knowingly still had those documents. Trump is in trouble for knowing he still had them and not turning them in lying about it and obstructing. That's ***** difference.

Edited March 31, 2023 by Warcodered