The Walls be Closing

[Joe Ferguson forever]

6 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Direct authority over children …. You mean people such as parents ? Sure, impressionable little minds should should learn the wonders of gay relationships and same sex b***jobs, at school , right ? This is not politics, just simply having some moral standards in what children are exposed to in school. They’re still free to seek out pornography on their own time . Dunce cap award to you again. 

These are public schools. What if the parents support their kids reading some of these books. The government makes the decision that they can’t get them at their school and implicitly tells the kids they are bad. What was your feeling on mandatory vaccines?  This is the same thing. Perhaps we should start private elementary schools for liberals.   Right now, most kids have to wait til college when they get a choice. What you are saying is that cons opinions are more highly valued than liberals or that liberals can be ignored by schools 

Edited August 16, 2023 by redtail hawk

[BillsFanNC]

 ⬆️ 

 

Quack Groomer MD

[Roundybout]

23 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

It’s not any tougher for them. This is a myth perpetuated by partisan liars such as yourself. Parents should have a say in what their children can access at school. This is not the same thing as a public library or bookstore. It’s not any more difficult for those of one race to vote than another. The rules are the same for all. Once again you receive the PPP dunce cap award. Bravo ! 

Fine, I refuse to let the Bible or anything Christian be allowed in my schools because it offends me. Now take them all away. 

[The Frankish Reich]

13 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

What if the parents support their kids reading some of these books. The government makes the decision that they can’t get them at their school and implicitly tells the kids they are bad

My issue with the Florida law: local control used to be a core Republican issue.

Miami Beach public schools are no doubt different than Naples public schools. If Miami Beach parents, through their school board and parent organizations, have no issue with certain books being in their school libraries, why is the Governor in Tallahassee telling them they must remove them?

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

My issue with the Florida law: local control used to be a core Republican issue.

Miami Beach public schools are no doubt different than Naples public schools. If Miami Beach parents, through their school board and parent organizations, have no issue with certain books being in their school libraries, why is the Governor in Tallahassee telling them they must remove them?

I’m guessing it’s because the Governor is the lead executive officer when it comes to K12 Education in all States. In a similar way all school boards have legal counsel sitting at the Dias telling them what they can and can’t do. School board members aren’t expected to know all of the ins and outs of the legal system. 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, SoCal Deek said:

I’m guessing it’s because the Governor is the lead executive officer when it comes to K12 Education in all States. In a similar way all school boards have legal counsel sitting at the Dias telling them what they can and can’t do. School board members aren’t expected to know all of the ins and outs of the legal system. 

That's probably correct. But my point is a different one: should the State legislature and the Governor be involved in what a local school wants to carry in its library collection? 

Traditionally, the answer - and particularly the Republican/conservative answer - would be that these are issues to be decided by the local community since they know what's best for themselves.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

That's probably correct. But my point is a different one: should the State legislature and the Governor be involved in what a local school wants to carry in its library collection? 

Traditionally, the answer - and particularly the Republican/conservative answer - would be that these are issues to be decided by the local community since they know what's best for themselves.

Frank: It’s actually, not probably, correct. 
 

The conservative viewpoint is that yes local control is generally better than distant control but not when local control harms kids, or breaks the law, or goes against standing regulations. In other words it’s not the Wild West where you can do whatever you want. 

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

or breaks the law, or goes against standing regulations

A circular argument. The State of Florida creates the law and the regulations, and is now saying certain local school library collections are in violation of that law.

Again: leave local issues to local control.

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

A circular argument. The State of Florida creates the law and the regulations, and is now saying certain local school library collections are in violation of that law.

Again: leave local issues to local control.

I’m not sure you understand. The conservative approach is NOT that local officials can do whatever they want. So until the Governor is stripped of his/her standing authority then the local board’s authority has limitations. This is similar to the Texas border issues. Conservatives understand that while Texas would like to stop the flow of illegal border crossings, they also know it’s the federal government that currently has authority over the border. Make sense? 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure you understand. The conservative approach is NOT that local officials can do whatever they want. So until the Governor is stripped of his/her standing authority then the local board’s authority has limitations. This is similar to the Texas border issues. Conservatives understand that while Texas would like to stop the flow of illegal border crossings, they also know it’s the federal government that currently has authority over the border. Make sense? 

Not even close to the same thing.

The idea - the American conservative idea - is this: not every community is the same. Not all of them share the same values or ideas about what may/may not be appropriate. Remember the old Supreme Court obscenity case? (A rather quaint notion in today's world.) The idea was the something was obscene if it appealed to the prurient interest and violated community standards. Community standards. Not every community is the same. So old X rated movies might be o.k. in NYC, but not o.k. in Lake Placid. 

Things like border control involve division of federal and state authorities, and there's no tie to community standards since the migrants are clearly not planning to stay put in McAllen TX.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Not even close to the same thing.

The idea - the American conservative idea - is this: not every community is the same. Not all of them share the same values or ideas about what may/may not be appropriate. Remember the old Supreme Court obscenity case? (A rather quaint notion in today's world.) The idea was the something was obscene if it appealed to the prurient interest and violated community standards. Community standards. Not every community is the same. So old X rated movies might be o.k. in NYC, but not o.k. in Lake Placid. 

Things like border control involve division of federal and state authorities, and there's no tie to community standards since the migrants are clearly not planning to stay put in McAllen TX.

Ugh! I’m amazed at how little people know about the governmental structure of the country they live in. K12 education is an arm of the State, not county, town, or city, government. When elected as a school board member you immediately take a governance class and learn that. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Ugh! I’m amazed at how little people know about the governmental structure of the country they live in. K12 education is an arm of the State, not county, town, or city, government. When elected as a school board member you immediately take a governance class and learn that. 

Every state is different on the devolution of the State's so-called "police powers" (a term that doesn't have anything directly to do with law enforcement, but encompasses the state's authority to regulate the health, safety, and morals of its populace) to local authorities. So you'd have to look at the state at issue.

 

But that's not the question. Whether the state has the authority to get deep into the weeds of what a school library may or may not carry in its collection is a different one than whether a state should do that (rather than leaving the decision to the local parents/board).

 

Imagine the tables are turned. (Which they often are!) A liberal state legislature/governor passes a law mandating that school libraries include all sorts of books about LGBT identities and choosing your own gender and all of that, and says that these books should be accessible to children starting in the 2nd grade (let's call that the Vivek Age). In my state, the People's Republic of Boulder says, "great, but we've already been doing that." Colorado Springs (until recently one of the most conservative cities in the USA) says "who are you to tell us what books our school librarian should order!" And they'd have a point. My point.

[SoCal Deek]

6 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Every state is different on the devolution of the State's so-called "police powers" (a term that doesn't have anything directly to do with law enforcement, but encompasses the state's authority to regulate the health, safety, and morals of its populace) to local authorities. So you'd have to look at the state at issue.

 

But that's not the question. Whether the state has the authority to get deep into the weeds of what a school library may or may not carry in its collection is a different one than whether a state should do that (rather than leaving the decision to the local parents/board).

 

Imagine the tables are turned. (Which they often are!) A liberal state legislature/governor passes a law mandating that school libraries include all sorts of books about LGBT identities and choosing your own gender and all of that, and says that these books should be accessible to children starting in the 2nd grade (let's call that the Vivek Age). In my state, the People's Republic of Boulder says, "great, but we've already been doing that." Colorado Springs (until recently one of the most conservative cities in the USA) says "who are you to tell us what books our school librarian should order!" And they'd have a point. My point.

I certainly can imagine that. But…in general, the conservative point of view is NOT that control be should be whittled down to the very most local level. (ie: street, neighborhood, house) On the topic of education conservatives understand that in most, if not all states K12 Education is under State authority. For example each local school district doesn’t write their own textbooks. This basic principle is why conservatives oppose the federal Department of Education. 
 

And the Governor of Florida understands this. When asked if he would continue with his current stance and actions on education should he become President, his answer has been ‘no’ he would not be the Chief Executive of education if elected President. 

Edited August 16, 2023 by SoCal Deek

[Biden is Mentally Fit]

1 hour ago, redtail hawk said:

These are public schools. What if the parents support their kids reading some of these books. The government makes the decision that they can’t get them at their school and implicitly tells the kids they are bad. What was your feeling on mandatory vaccines?  This is the same thing. Perhaps we should start private elementary schools for liberals.   Right now, most kids have to wait til college when they get a choice. What you are saying is that cons opinions are more highly valued than liberals or that liberals can be ignored by schools 

You sound as though you are an absolutist on the matter of public school reading materials. Is that right? Because of freedumb?

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, JDHillFan said:

You sound as though you are an absolutist on the matter of public school reading materials. Is that right? Because of freedumb?

People need to take a basic civics class. They have no idea how our government works. 

[Roundybout]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I certainly can imagine that. But…in general, the conservative point of view is NOT that control be should be whittled down to the very most local level. (ie: street, neighborhood, house) On the topic of education conservatives understand that in most, if not all states K12 Education is under State authority. For example each local school district doesn’t write their own textbooks. This basic principle is why conservatives oppose the federal Department of Education. 
 

And the Governor of Florida understands this. When asked if he would continue with his current stance and actions on education should he become President, his answer has been ‘no’ he would not be the Chief Executive of education if elected President. 

Sure, but then liberals such as myself argue that it’s a bad thing for the union overall to allow different states to have different standards. It results in some kids having a poorer education.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

7 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

You sound as though you are an absolutist on the matter of public school reading materials. Is that right? Because of freedumb?

Not absolutist. I don’t think the anarchists cookbook should be available in school libraries for example. But if parents are to have a say, liberal parents should have an equal say. Do u agree?

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Roundybout said:

Sure, but then liberals such as myself argue that it’s a bad thing for the union overall to allow different states to have different standards. It results in some kids having a poorer education.

Thanks. I’m certainly aware of that, and you can certainly work to transform it…. but that’s simply NOT how our country’s civic structure is designed to work. 

[The Frankish Reich]

19 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And the Governor of Florida understands this.

Does he?

Because he's getting involved in culture wars all over the place to try to boost his brand. As I've pointed out, he's even violating core Republican principles to get his name attached to anything "anti-woke." Why would I believe that he'd change course if he were in charge of the federal Department of Education?

[Biden is Mentally Fit]

6 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Not absolutist. I don’t think the anarchists cookbook should be available in school libraries for example. But if parents are to have a say, liberal parents should have an equal say. Do u agree?

They do have a say. That’s what school board elections and open school board and PTA meetings are for. 
 

Is your line in the sand for elementary school reading materials set at anal, oral, and jerking off? All appropriate?