The Walls be Closing

[Kemp]

7 hours ago, Wacka said:

He is a snob. Always throwing references to  country clubs, going to Europe, etc.

 

You should become his cult member if that's true. That's Trump’s  M.O.

[Westside]

30 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

It provokes your anger and resentment, doesn't it?  Kinda the point.  Much of the MAGA hate for the left stems from this.  While calling D's socialists and commies, when they illustrate their success in capitalism they are "elites" and are despised.  It's schizophrenic and pathetic.  You guys just want the govt to do whatever is best for you.  Doesn't matter how or who it hurts just as long as the actions improve your life.  Or you believe that they will.  That's the extent of the political philosophy of MAGAs and that's why they are at our throats.

So much hate inside you. Really sad. I pity you.

[Joe Ferguson forever]

33 minutes ago, Kemp said:

 

You should become his cult member if that's true. That's Trump’s  M.O.

Yup.  But they admire his accumulation and pride in wealth because he pretends to listen.  Schizophrenic, as I said.   Best recent example is covid.  The "freedom" to go unvaxed caused excess deaths to their own tribe and to everyone else.  But their "freedom" is more important...

Edited August 4, 2023 by redtail hawk

[TSOL]

14 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Yup.  But they admire his accumulation and pride in wealth because he pretends to listen.  Schizophrenic, as I said.   Best recent example is covid.  The "freedom" to go unvaxed caused excess deaths to their own tribe and to everyone else.  But their "freedom" is more important...

 

Still taking that lie like communion, huh. 

 

Good little trained monkey 

[Tommy Callahan]

Biden doesn't have a cult. 

 

He is just on team blue.  Team blue has loyalist that always support blue. and blue always supports the state.   but nothing cultish about that.

 

 

 

And anyone not blue, is a Trumper/cultist.

 

these are the rules.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chris farley

[Joe Ferguson forever]

39 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Biden doesn't have a cult. 

 

He just happens is team blue.  Team blue has loyalist that always support blue. and blue always supports the state.   but nothing cultish about that.

 

 

 

And anyone not blue, is a Trumper/cultist.

 

these are the rules.

 

 

 

 

The definition of red and blue has almost flipped.  The country club set were the R's.  The union workers etc and those needing to rely on social programs were the D's.     So it's important to describe red and blue in historical terms:  Old or new R.  Old or new D.  What a mess

Edited August 4, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

1 minute ago, redtail hawk said:

The definition of red and blue has almost flipped.  The country club set were the R's.  The union workers etc and those needing to rely on social programs were the D's.     So it's important to describe red and blue in historical terms:  Old or new R.  Old or new D.

OK. Blue is funded and represents the country club set (investment class).  like the GOP

 

Eff, most modern social programs are just jobs programs with no way to track productivity.  

 

the old DEMS are long gone.  

 

the GOP seems to be the same out of touch and incompetent group as ever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

5 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

OK. Blue is funded and represents the country club set (investment class).  like the GOP

 

Eff, most modern social programs are just jobs programs with no way to track productivity.  

 

the old DEMS are long gone.  

 

the GOP seems to be the same out of touch and incompetent group as ever.

 

 

 

 

 

 

It actually worked pretty well the old way.  And would work better if both adopted a more hybrid model.  For instance, it would make sense for those who heavily utilize social programs to support the politicians that do.  But they don't.  In some ways, the hybrid model is in effect in the D party with many of the old R's now identifying as D's.  

Edited August 4, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

5 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

It actually worked pretty well the old way.  And would work better if both adopted a more hybrid model.  For instance, it would make sense for those who heavily utilize social programs to support the politicians that do.  But they don't.  In some ways, the hybrid model is in effect in the D party with the old R's now identifying as D's.  

I would argue that if it was working so well. The dems would not have chosen the outsider Obama over the established Clinton. and in turn the GOP base would not have chosen the outsider trump over the establishment.  

 

what an effin mess.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chris farley

[All_Pro_Bills]

12 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

People get charged with conspiracy even if they don’t get charged with another crime because requiring that the crime be done successfully in order to charge someone is dumb. 
 

(Queue Sideshow Bob: “Attempted murder. Now honestly what is that? Can you win a Nobel Prize for attempted chemistry?”)

 

Also, Trump was charged with a non-conspiracy charge in the indictment anyway. 
 

For people who are unfamiliar with indictments, a good place to start is to look at the specific statutes cited and what their elements are. You can only be convicted of a crime if you meet all of the elements of the crime as defined in the statute. The job of the prosecutor is to convince a jury that all of the elements are met beyond a reasonable doubt. 
 

Here, Trump was charged with violating a handful statutes, so we can check the elements of those statutes:

 

18 U.S.C. § 371 - Conspiracy to Defraud the United States

 

Elements:

-Two or more persons 

-Conspire to either commit an offense against the US or to defraud the US or any agency thereof

-In any manner or for any purpose

-One or more of such persons do any effect to the object of the conspiracy

 

18 U.S.C. § 1512(k) - Conspiracy to Obstruct an Official Proceeding

 

This is a bit of a catch-all that basically states that you face the same penalties for conspiring to commit any offense under 18 U.S.C. § 1512 as you would for actually committing one. 

 

18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2), 2 - Obstruction of an Official Proceeding and Attempt to Obstruct an Official Proceeding

 

Elements:

-Someone corruptly either:

    -Obstructs

    -Influences

    -Impedes

-Any official proceeding

OR

-Attempts the above 

18 U.S.C. § 241 - Conspiracy Against Rights

 

Elements:

-Two or more people conspire to do any of:

   -Injure

   -Oppress

   -Threaten

   -Intimidate

-Any person in any state, territory, Commonwealth, possession, or district 

-In the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured by the Constitution; 

Or

-Two or more persons

-Go in disguise on the highway or on the premises of another

-With intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise of any right or privilege secured by the Constitution 

 

People get charged with conspiracy even if they don’t get charged with another crime because requiring that the crime be done successfully in order to charge someone is dumb. 

 

Again, I'm not saying the crime needs to be "successful".  But there must be an act representative of the planning or commission of the crime beyond conspiracy.  And we have a different definition of "success".  In my thinking nobody gets charged with a successful crime because one element of success is getting away with it.  Being arrested is a condition of failure.  

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

3 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

I would argue that if it was working so well. The dems would not have chosen the outsider Obama over the established Clinton. and in turn the GOP base would not have chosen the outsider trump over the establishment.  

 

 

Clinton was a terrible candidate as is trump.  Obama was an attractive candidate to many including some establishment people.  From my perspective, he was the hybrid.  For example, while espousing a national healthcare system he got a much less radical program enacted.  I don't think you can lump the 3 together.

Edited August 4, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

2 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

Clinton was a terrible candidate as is trump.  Obama was an attractive candidate to many including some establishment people.  I don't think you can lump the 3 together.

you are correct that he was attractive to the investment class that broke records supporting him.  (Priorities USA)

 

But he was an outsider with no baggage.  No one knew he was going to be a war monger. shoot. they gave him a Nobel before he even got in office based on his speeches.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Chris farley

[Tiberius]

🤣

 

Former president Donald Trump and some of his legal advisers see an upside to the latest criminal case against him: He can use his upcoming trial to further argue his false claims of a stolen 2020 election.

The looming courtroom showdown is poised to push his insistence that election fraud occurred in 2020 toward the center of the 2024 presidential campaign, a dismaying prospect for Republicans and some of Trump’s advisers who have urged him to stop belaboring that subject. Trump’s defense team has signaled that they’ll focus on rebutting prosecutors’ allegations that Trump knew his fraud claims were false.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/08/03/donald-trump-charges-election-republicans/?itid=hp-top-table-main_p001_f001

[BillStime]

10 hours ago, Westside said:

You like to label people.

So do you

 

 

Why don’t these people ever think?

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

5 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

you are correct that he was attractive to the investment class that broke records supporting him.  (Priorities USA)

 

But he was an outsider with no baggage.  No one knew he was going to be a war monger. shoot. they gave him a Nobel before he even got in office based on his speeches.

 

 

yes.  money heavily influences politics. I wouldn't label Obama a war monger but he certainly was less of a pacifist than I expected.  At any rate, I think your points support my belief that the "culture war" and the anger between new red and blue is just a proxy term for "class war" which few will admit.  With the old R party, it was more clear and open.

Edited August 4, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Kemp]

1 hour ago, TSOL said:

 

Still taking that lie like communion, huh. 

 

Good little trained monkey 

 

Those were the statistics.

 

Pesky facts.

[Tommy Callahan]

5 minutes ago, redtail hawk said:

yes.  money heavily influences politics. I wouldn't label Obama a war monger but he certainly was less of a pacifist than I expected.  At any rate, I think your points support my belief that the "culture war" and the anger between new red and blue is just a proxy term for "class war" which few will admit.  With the old R party, it was more clear and open.

yes.  people kind of expect government to represent them and their needs. not the wills of the investment class that openly purchase them.

 

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

2 minutes ago, Kemp said:

 

Those were the statistics.

 

Pesky facts.

sadly, vaccines were a hill that many MAGA's chose to die on.

[Tommy Callahan]

Just now, redtail hawk said:

sadly, vaccines were a hill that many MAGA's chose to die on.

 it seems you are choosing a hill to kill any integrity you had left.

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

Just now, Chris farley said:

yes.  people kind of expect government to represent them and their needs. not the wills of the investment class that openly purchase them.

 

 

 

 

And yet the champion of many of those people is now a poster child for the worst of the investment class...