WR Trent Sherfield signed

[Solomon Grundy]

Just had the pleasure of meeting the newest member of the Bills and his family. Very friendly and classy. I welcomed them to Buffalo and members of the Mafia 

[Back2Buff]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "They already made the decision to" and "the money is tied up".

 

Could you explain please?

 

What more is there to explain?  Just listen to a Beane press conference.  We are broke and he continues to point to Davis ankle injury.

[John from Riverside]

16 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

 

What more is there to explain?  Just listen to a Beane press conference.  We are broke and he continues to point to Davis ankle injury.

You’re pointing to coach speak as proof?

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

I look at this and go back and forth a bit.  Fundamentally, I agree much more than I disagree that the two biggest areas for improvement are OL and Dorsey, with Allen re-discovering his willingness to play a more diverse game and take advantage of the timely short pass to a player who can create YAC a strong third.

 

That said, let me ask you this:  the Bills came out of 2019 with John Brown as a proven >1000 yd receiver and Beasley as a 67 reception, ~800 yd slot.  They went into 2020 with Stefon Diggs as #1 and Brown and Beasley as #2 and #3, then added Davis as a promising rookie "ahead of schedule".

 

Do you feel we are anything near to the same place as far as proven WR talent to where we were going into the 2020 season?

 

Likewise, in 2021 we went into the season with Diggs, Emmanuel Sanders (a more complete WR than Brown with several >1000 yd seasons and still capable), Beasley just off an almost-1000 yd season, and Davis just off a promising, 35 reception 600 yd rookie year.

 

Do you feel we are anything near to the same place as far as proven WR talent to where we were going into the 2021 season?

This is fun to talk about, but I think you're playing with words a little bit.  Going into the season in 2020 I was really excited.   I thought the Bills have proven, natural 1, 2, and 3.  The reality of what we had was different, at least with respect to Brown.   Brown rarely had seasons where he was a really solid, versatile 2, and I didn't think he did in 2020.  How would I compare now to then?   I'd give the edge to 2020, but not by so much that it matters.  Davis is a better 2 than Brown was, able to get deep surprisingly well - not in Brown's class, but quite good, a better possession receiver and a better blocker.  Beas that season was hard to beat.  

 

2021?  Proven wide receiver talent?  Well, of course, Emmanuel was proven, but he turned out to be not so good.  He looked like an upgrade over Brown, but he wasn't.  And 2021 Beas was showing his limitations, particularly in the deep game.  I'd say right now, Shakir and what I've heard about Sherfield, some combination of them will be better than Beas turned out to be in 2021.  Plus each of those two fit more naturally into the wideout role than Beas, when the Bills want to put Diggs in the slot.  

 

Do I know all that for sure?   No.  But I'm quite confident they have a room full of receivers who can make more than enough catches.  

 

I also think that in making the comparison, you also have to consider the running backs.  Bills could have their 1, 2, and 3 on the field AND have Cook and Hines.  Or Harris and Hines.   If Harris runs anything like he has, he's going to force defenders into the box, and the Bills definitely have the talent to attack deep and on the perimeter when that happens.   

 

Bottom line, I think the Bills have the skill positions covered.   Work on the line.   And it's a make or break year, in my mind, for Dorsey.  The oline is his job, and utilizing those skill players is his job.  

[Beck Water]

49 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

You’re pointing to coach speak as proof?

 

Worse, GM speak - during FA

[Augie]

49 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

You’re pointing to coach speak as proof?

 

It is generally only proof that coaches speak. Not quite the same. 

[Beck Water]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

This is fun to talk about, but I think you're playing with words a little bit.  Going into the season in 2020 I was really excited.   I thought the Bills have proven, natural 1, 2, and 3.  The reality of what we had was different, at least with respect to Brown.   Brown rarely had seasons where he was a really solid, versatile 2, and I didn't think he did in 2020.  How would I compare now to then?   I'd give the edge to 2020, but not by so much that it matters.  Davis is a better 2 than Brown was, able to get deep surprisingly well - not in Brown's class, but quite good, a better possession receiver and a better blocker.  Beas that season was hard to beat.  

 

2021?  Proven wide receiver talent?  Well, of course, Emmanuel was proven, but he turned out to be not so good.  He looked like an upgrade over Brown, but he wasn't. 

 

So now you're puzzling me.  You say in your previous post, that you think we've got the skill positions covered.  In this post, that we (already) have a room full of receivers who can make more than enough catches.

 

Then you say that Emmanuel was proven, but "turned out to be not so good".  But in 2021, he had 42 catches for 626 yds, 14.9 y/r, 31 1st downs on 77% of the snaps - compare with Davis, who had 35 receptions for 549 yds, 29 1st downs, 15.7 y/r on 91% of the snaps.  So if those #s for Emmanuel Sanders "turned out to be not so good", what do you say about Sanders, whose numbers were actually a bit better?

 

I'm having trouble parsing both those notions.

 

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

Do I know all that for sure?   No.  But I'm quite confident they have a room full of receivers who can make more than enough catches.  

 

 I'm glad you're confident, but I  think we're way short of having the "skill positions covered".  I think we have some guys with potential - but it remains to be seen whether they can haul in Josh Allen "Piss Missiles" in cold wet weather and make enough plays.

 

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I also think that in making the comparison, you also have to consider the running backs.  Bills could have their 1, 2, and 3 on the field AND have Cook and Hines.  Or Harris and Hines.   If Harris runs anything like he has, he's going to force defenders into the box, and the Bills definitely have the talent to attack deep and on the perimeter when that happens.   

 

Bottom line, I think the Bills have the skill positions covered.   Work on the line.   And it's a make or break year, in my mind, for Dorsey.  The oline is his job, and utilizing those skill players is his job.  

 

We have strong agreement about "work on the line", because we're not going to be able to put two RBs on the field (especially Cook and HInes) unless we improve at RT enough that we don't need Knox over there to chip, nor will Harris run anything like what he has, nor will Josh Allen have time to attack deep reliably.

 

[John from Riverside]

I honestly have not followed this guy much so I’m not gonna act like I know anything about him

 

What I do know is this I’m a big fan of poaching free agents off of teams at positions of their strength

 

Even if a player is the third wide receiver on their team if they have superstars in front of them, that doesn’t mean that that third player is a bad player might actually be a very good player

 

He has speed and size plays special teams

and blocks for the run seems like a Buffalo Bill

[Mr. WEO]

10 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

He was their WR3, so it does 

 

 

The WR 1 and 2 had 3066 yards--68% of the total passing yards went to 2 guys!  This kid had 417.  

 

He was a third testicle in that WR room. 

[Sierra Foothills]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:47 PM, Warcodered said:

 

 

Good read. Thanks for posting the link.

 

On 3/20/2023 at 1:50 PM, Gambit said:

You're talking about Hodgins not Hopkins. That's what was confusing about your original comment.

 

In discussions on this forum, there's no difference between Hodgins and Hopkins for all intents and purposes.

 

On 3/20/2023 at 3:41 PM, Kirby Jackson said:

Thought the comments were interesting from Dolphins fans. They really liked him.

 

 

8 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Dorsey, Dorsey, Dorsey. 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Sierra Foothills

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

So now you're puzzling me.  You say in your previous post, that you think we've got the skill positions covered.  In this post, that we (already) have a room full of receivers who can make more than enough catches.

 

Then you say that Emmanuel was proven, but "turned out to be not so good".  But in 2021, he had 42 catches for 626 yds, 14.9 y/r, 31 1st downs on 77% of the snaps - compare with Davis, who had 35 receptions for 549 yds, 29 1st downs, 15.7 y/r on 91% of the snaps.  So if those #s for Emmanuel Sanders "turned out to be not so good", what do you say about Sanders, whose numbers were actually a bit better?

 

I'm having trouble parsing both those notions.

 

 

 I'm glad you're confident, but I  think we're way short of having the "skill positions covered".  I think we have some guys with potential - but it remains to be seen whether they can haul in Josh Allen "Piss Missiles" in cold wet weather and make enough plays.

 

 

We have strong agreement about "work on the line", because we're not going to be able to put two RBs on the field (especially Cook and HInes) unless we improve at RT enough that we don't need Knox over there to chip, nor will Harris run anything like what he has, nor will Josh Allen have time to attack deep reliably.

 

As to the first - Davis had a much better season in 2022 than Sanders had in 2021.  Sanders wouldn't have been a disappointment in 2021 if he had the season Davis had in 2022.  

 

As to the second, we already know Shakir can handle Allen throws, and we know Diggs, Knox, and Davis can.  I really am comfortable.  

 

As to your last point, I really think that we as fans tend to magnify the problems in our mind.  Allen threw plenty of deep balls last season, even with the lousy pass protection.  Yes, the offense needs to be better, but the offense was not far away from where it needed to be last season.  As I keep saying, improve the line and get a quality job out of Dorsey.  

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

So now you're puzzling me.  You say in your previous post, that you think we've got the skill positions covered.  In this post, that we (already) have a room full of receivers who can make more than enough catches.

 

Then you say that Emmanuel was proven, but "turned out to be not so good".  But in 2021, he had 42 catches for 626 yds, 14.9 y/r, 31 1st downs on 77% of the snaps - compare with Davis, who had 35 receptions for 549 yds, 29 1st downs, 15.7 y/r on 91% of the snaps.  So if those #s for Emmanuel Sanders "turned out to be not so good", what do you say about Sanders, whose numbers were actually a bit better?

 

I'm having trouble parsing both those notions.

 

 

 I'm glad you're confident, but I  think we're way short of having the "skill positions covered".  I think we have some guys with potential - but it remains to be seen whether they can haul in Josh Allen "Piss Missiles" in cold wet weather and make enough plays.

 

 

We have strong agreement about "work on the line", because we're not going to be able to put two RBs on the field (especially Cook and HInes) unless we improve at RT enough that we don't need Knox over there to chip, nor will Harris run anything like what he has, nor will Josh Allen have time to attack deep reliably.

 

yep to bolded. that equation might include RG and the synergy needed to prepare for stunts and passing off a T or LB. and by golly some screen plays !
 

 But you had me at PISS MISSILE

 

This descriptor of Joshes wet passes should be inked into the history Books.

 

Josh Allen. All the Velocity, all the time !

[Richard Noggin]

5 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

Bottom line, I think the Bills have the skill positions covered.   Work on the line.   And it's a make or break year, in my mind, for Dorsey.  The oline is his job, and utilizing those skill players is his job.  

 

Forgive me for isolating this last bit of your thoughtful post - but while I agree that for 2023 the Bills have enough talent at the skill positions assuming no injuries (minus the hole at TE2...still see Q. Morris as solid TE3 at this time), I think the fairly pervasive opinion is that the team NEEDS to add a HIGH VALUE talent to the receiving pipeline because after Diggs we don't seemingly have anyone who has the potential to rise to that level.

 

For one ill-fated playoff game, we all saw Davis become a righteous and repeated punishment for Spagnuolo's unwavering, dedicated doubling of Diggs. It was legendary. And on the heels of a perfect offensive game the week prior, in those conditions in front of that crowd, there was a natural spoiling of our collective expectations for what Gabe Davis could be with more opportunities. 

 

But with a QB like Allen and a WR1 like Diggs, it really does boil down to oline play: pass protection and the valid threat of a running game.

[Shaw66]

11 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Forgive me for isolating this last bit of your thoughtful post - but while I agree that for 2023 the Bills have enough talent at the skill positions assuming no injuries (minus the hole at TE2...still see Q. Morris as solid TE3 at this time), I think the fairly pervasive opinion is that the team NEEDS to add a HIGH VALUE talent to the receiving pipeline because after Diggs we don't seemingly have anyone who has the potential to rise to that level.

 

For one ill-fated playoff game, we all saw Davis become a righteous and repeated punishment for Spagnuolo's unwavering, dedicated doubling of Diggs. It was legendary. And on the heels of a perfect offensive game the week prior, in those conditions in front of that crowd, there was a natural spoiling of our collective expectations for what Gabe Davis could be with more opportunities. 

 

But with a QB like Allen and a WR1 like Diggs, it really does boil down to oline play: pass protection and the valid threat of a running game.

I hear you, and most of what you say in this post is exactly right.   I disagree with the bolded "pervasive opinion."  I agree that it IS the pervasive opinion, but think that opinion is wrong for one very clear reason:   the needs of the team in general and the resources available to fill those needs. 

 

The Bills need to prioritize its needs, and no matter how much the team's management may think it needs another wideout, I think quality management will recognize that it needs another offensive lineman more.  They also need a linebacker more.  Given the resources available (in the grand scheme of things, relatively little cap room and relatively little draft capital), it's simply not reasonable to expect the Bills to acquire the kind of receiver people are talking about.  Not OBJ, not Beckham, not (please not) Jeudy.  Beane may surprise me, but I don't see it.  

 

For years here, discussion at this time of year was about how the Bills were going to fill the holes in their starting lineup.   There always were holes, and it seemed the Bills had more holes to fill than they had resources to fill them.   That's changed.  Last year at this time, and this year, too, the Bills can see that they have their holes under control (they must have some plan for middle linebacker), and they're in the business of trying to upgrade positions.  Wideout is definitely in that category.  Davis is by no means a problem.   There is no hole at #2 receiver like there was when the Bills tried to make Beasley a #2.  

 

Given the resources available to acquire talent and give the current areas that most require improvement, I don't get talking about getting a major upgrade over Davis. 

 

  

[Green Lightning]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I hear you, and most of what you say in this post is exactly right.   I disagree with the bolded "pervasive opinion."  I agree that it IS the pervasive opinion, but think that opinion is wrong for one very clear reason:   the needs of the team in general and the resources available to fill those needs. 

 

The Bills need to prioritize its needs, and no matter how much the team's management may think it needs another wideout, I think quality management will recognize that it needs another offensive lineman more.  They also need a linebacker more.  Given the resources available (in the grand scheme of things, relatively little cap room and relatively little draft capital), it's simply not reasonable to expect the Bills to acquire the kind of receiver people are talking about.  Not OBJ, not Beckham, not (please not) Jeudy.  Beane may surprise me, but I don't see it.  

 

For years here, discussion at this time of year was about how the Bills were going to fill the holes in their starting lineup.   There always were holes, and it seemed the Bills had more holes to fill than they had resources to fill them.   That's changed.  Last year at this time, and this year, too, the Bills can see that they have their holes under control (they must have some plan for middle linebacker), and they're in the business of trying to upgrade positions.  Wideout is definitely in that category.  Davis is by no means a problem.   There is no hole at #2 receiver like there was when the Bills tried to make Beasley a #2.  

 

Given the resources available to acquire talent and give the current areas that most require improvement, I don't get talking about getting a major upgrade over Davis. 

 

  

I see both sides of this. Last year, when we really needed a play and Diggs was doubled, nobody could seem to get separation and get open.  My opinion is it's both on Dorsey and our #2&3 receivers. Dorsey had little care of situational football awareness when dialing up a bomb on a 3rd and 2 on a crucial ball control drive.  Davis caught only 50% of his targets and Knox was kept in to chip or outright block as our RT is dreadful. So we signed some speed, but it's only potential. How good would it be to have a real proven #2 to give Josh another quality option? And if not now, when? 

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Green Lightning said:

I see both sides of this. Last year, when we really needed a play and Diggs was doubled, nobody could seem to get separation and get open.  My opinion is it's both on Dorsey and our #2&3 receivers. Dorsey had little care of situational football awareness when dialing up a bomb on a 3rd and 2 on a crucial ball control drive.  Davis caught only 50% of his targets and Knox was kept in to chip or outright block as our RT is dreadful. So we signed some speed, but it's only potential. How good would it be to have a real proven #2 to give Josh another quality option? And if not now, when? 

It's this notion that Davis somehow is not "a real proven #2" that I don't get.   What's not real and proven about 48 receptions for 836 yards (17.4 per reception) and 7 touchdowns in 15 games?   I think there were three teams with two receivers over 1000 yards each, and that proves that it's unusual to have two.   Davis doesn't have to go over 1000 to be a "real proven #2."   What he did in 2022 proved it.  

 

It's a luxury to have two receivers over 1000 yards, and it's a luxury that is short-lived.  Teams can't afford to pay two.  (And, by the way, ten more receptions gets Davis over 100 yards, and do you really doubt that better protection and better work from Dorsey won't get Davis ten more receptions?  I don't.) 

 

Now, if you're operating the team from the perspective that you have a "window" to succeed, then, yes, sometimes you blow out the budget to try for one magical season.  But Beane and McDermott have been completely clear that they are building for sustained, long-term success, and they are not going to blow the future by writing big checks to create some kind of dream receivers room for one year.  

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Green Lightning said:

I see both sides of this. Last year, when we really needed a play and Diggs was doubled, nobody could seem to get separation and get open.  My opinion is it's both on Dorsey and our #2&3 receivers. Dorsey had little care of situational football awareness when dialing up a bomb on a 3rd and 2 on a crucial ball control drive.  Davis caught only 50% of his targets and Knox was kept in to chip or outright block as our RT is dreadful. So we signed some speed, but it's only potential. How good would it be to have a real proven #2 to give Josh another quality option? And if not now, when? 

And the offensive line to give them time to get open….

[Alphadawg7]

On 3/20/2023 at 12:47 PM, Warcodered said:

 

 

This really is a fantastic read, and it really lets fans into the real world business behind the scenes of the NFL that they don't see on TV or even know exists.  There is a reason every Dolphin fan I know hates that we got him too.  

 

I think this guy brings a lot to this team, and I keep seeing everyone listing him as 5th on the depth chart or looking at him as just a ST guy.  But he is going to be the immediate backup on the outside, and I wouldn't be surprised if he eats into Davis snaps this season unless Davis has a major bounce back.  

 

I actually think it could potentially mirror 2021 when Sanders was the #2 and Davis started eating into his snaps in the 2nd half of the season and Davis started carving out a bigger role.  

 

I think Diggs/Davis/Sherfield will resemble snap counts of Diggs/Sanders/Davis in 2021 and Harty (having replaced McKenzie) will compete with Shakir for the starting slot position and could have some rotation there too as they both bring different things to the table.  

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

It's this notion that Davis somehow is not "a real proven #2" that I don't get.   What's not real and proven about 48 receptions for 836 yards (17.4 per reception) and 7 touchdowns in 15 games?   I think there were three teams with two receivers over 1000 yards each, and that proves that it's unusual to have two.   Davis doesn't have to go over 1000 to be a "real proven #2."   What he did in 2022 proved it.  

 

It's a luxury to have two receivers over 1000 yards, and it's a luxury that is short-lived.  Teams can't afford to pay two.  (And, by the way, ten more receptions gets Davis over 100 yards, and do you really doubt that better protection and better work from Dorsey won't get Davis ten more receptions?  I don't.) 

 

Now, if you're operating the team from the perspective that you have a "window" to succeed, then, yes, sometimes you blow out the budget to try for one magical season.  But Beane and McDermott have been completely clear that they are building for sustained, long-term success, and they are not going to blow the future by writing big checks to create some kind of dream receivers room for one year.  

I don’t think those stats, in this offense, with our QB proves anything except he was the #2 option.  I think many WRs would have put up those stats playing in our offense with Josh allen throwing him passes, running routes opposite Diggs. 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I don’t think those stats, in this offense, with our QB proves anything except he was the #2 option.  I think many WRs would have put up those stats playing in our offense with Josh allen throwing him passes, running routes opposite Diggs. 

I think that's nonsense.  KC won the Super Bowl with a great QB, and they didn't have a number 2 over 1000 yards.  They just had Kelce.   That's my whole point.  A super stud number 2 is a luxury, not a necessity.   Allen can get 4000 yards with the receivers and backs he has.  No problem