Lil dirty update - McKenzie released

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

I know you are big time in the Jeudy/ OBJ/ Hopkins or bust camp. It is a popular trend here.

I will agree with you that the top end talent in this draft is meh.

Few if any identifiable future WR1 in this draft.

 

I know my thoughts on D Hop are well known on this board. Same with OBJ.

 

What exactly has Jeudy done in this league to make you think he is the boom or bust answer to WR?

 

If Denver wanted a 2nd this year and a conditional pick next year, I would consider that.

But a 1st and a second and other considerations? No way.

Not with the holes/ contracts/ age on this team.

 

I'd rather trade down the 1st for a 2nd and 3/4th than blow 2 high picks on Jeudy.

If that happened, and the higher 2nd could be traded, draft day for him, yeah, I would consider that too.

 

Most of the conversation between us amateurs has been around a simple "27th overall for Jeudy" deal. Would you do that?

[Dr. Who]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree about this.  With Shakir and Harty, they have the slot covered.  With Hines and Harty, they have the gadgets covered.  They have the return game covered.  There just isn't a lot of reason to spend additional dollars on the slot, or on receivers in general.   If the Bills get a great wideout in the first round, fine, but it isn't essential. 

 

As for McKenzie, I'm not sorry to see him go.   He never became what the Bills need him to become.   He has talent, he worked hard, and he made some plays, but he never became a major threat in any part of the game.  He was replaceable, and the Bills now have replaced him. 

Are you convinced Davis is a reliable #2? I think a more consistent, talented wr to play on the outside is needed for the wr room to be complete. I sure as Hades ain't comfortable saying everything is now fine. They need to add a te#2 and at least one more olineman while they are at it.

[BillsShredder83]

4 hours ago, Tortured Soul said:

Anyone else afraid he’s going to go to Miami?

He is... To work his bbq stand full time lol im calling it now, hes this years Feliciano in that he'll air out some sour grapes stuff publicly. i didnt care for his live interview/show at the bar last offseason, but chalked it up to some fair frustration.  then i heard a very credible story on how he treats regular people (not even a fan, cause I know we've been rough on him at times), and cant say i buy into the silly guy schtick.  im sure theres plenty of that around the league, but cant say im a fan of the guy. fully expect some more sour grapes from him within the next few weeks

[Beck Water]

42 minutes ago, Protocal69 said:

I can McKenzie signing with the Giants on a vet min deal

It’s not impossible, but I’m thinking Jacksonville is a possibility

[ngbills]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

5M is a big price tag?  Spotrac had his market value @ 8.5M aav

 

we can cut him after the years with slightly over 1M in dead cap.  That’s not a big price tag…. Maybe it is to you, because you don’t know a lot about him and probably listened to other people say how it’s an overpay.  
 

 

Based on what he has done. I hope I’m wrong, just don’t have a good feeling about this especially if this is our big move at wr. 

[wppete]

3 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Thanks Pete we had no idea

Slow to the game. 

[RocCityRoller]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Most of the conversation between us amateurs has been around a simple "27th overall for Jeudy" deal. Would you do that?

 

Good question, since that is not the current asking price.

Last I checked, Denver was looking for more than MN got for Diggs in exchange.

 

I don't know if Denver has backed off the ask price, I've been enjoying the NCAA tourney the past couple of days.

 

I might pull the trigger at #27 for Jeudy. Nothing more, but I'm waiting till draft day.

 

I really like the idea of trading back this draft and picking up a 2nd and 3/4th for a lot of reasons.

It doesn't seem like a good 1st round draft for franchise changers, much less at #27.

 

I'd let Denver know I'll trade them #27 for Jeudy in the first round, unless there is a player I want (Avila etc)

Likewise if a team wants to trade me their #2 and #3/#4 for our #1 I would probably do that too.

 

I'm really 'meh' on Jeudy, but I think he is probably better than any WR Buffalo could draft at #1, especially outside.

But if I trade a first for a WR, I need to get a guy that can be by #1 in a season or two. Like Diggs. (1/4/5/7)

 

I don't know if Jeudy is that guy. Out of the current options available, he may be the best bet.

Getting 2 more years on a rookie contract +1 year of contract control does sweeten that deal.

Denver knows this, but wants too much for a guy who never broke 1k receiving for a season.

[Shaw66]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Are you convinced Davis is a reliable #2? I think a more consistent, talented wr to play on the outside is needed for the wr room to be complete. I sure as Hades ain't comfortable saying everything is now fine. They need to add a te#2 and at least one more olineman while they are at it.

I knew it was only a matter of time before I got into the Davis debate.   I think Davis is excellent.   I never thought Davis was the 4-TD per game guy we saw in the playoffs, but I think he's an excellent #2.  Good hands (I can't explain his drop totals in 2022, but I don't think that's who he is).  Decent deep speed - not a burner, but he gets downfield.   Good connection with Allen.   I love his size.   Good red zone threat.   Would I like two #1s, like Cincy has, and a few other teams?  Sure, but I would much rather find an offensive lineman who can start in year 1 than go after that second #1 guy.   

 

One way to look at #2 is to think of it this way:  Who wants Robert Woods in his prime as the #2?   I do, and I think most everyone here does.  Davis is as complete a player, with a slightly different skill set.   

 

If I'm replacing someone, it's Knox.   I'd like a more consistent threat there, too, and I'm not sure why he hasn't risen.  

 

I'm happy with him.  As far as I'm concerned, if they get Allen the pass protection he deserves, the success of the passing game lies much more with Dorsey than with the #2 or the TE.   I think if Dorsey can run a creative passing attack, we all will be more than satisfied with Davis and Knox. 

 

  

And I didn't say it before, but thanks to McKenzie for the years he put in in Buffalo.   He worked his tail off, ran millions of fake jet sweeps, and kept the mood light.   He was a good guy to have on the team.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Shaw66

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, RocCityRoller said:

In his best season Harty generated 23 first downs.

BBQ generated 30 last season.

 

Harty has finished the season on IR 2x out of 4 seasons.

Lil Dirty... nope

 

I understand cutting ways with McKenzie. He was an adventure at KR/PR, and he could not rise to the occasion as a WR3.

Nor sure Harty is anymore than a PR/KR, gadget guy though.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/deonte-harris-player-injuries

 

While technically true, its more nuanced then that. His first trip to IR was on December 19, 2020th for a neck stinger, not exactly a recurring injury risk.

 

2019 he was ruled out for 2 games due to a hamstring. Was ruled out again for 1 game 2021 for a hammy.

 

Last year sent him to IR w/ turf toe w/ week 5 injury.  If operated on (it was) its not considered to be a major re-injury risk.

 

if you want to argue he's too small to hold up through an NFL season that's one thing, but the history is pretty far from being problematic, and unlikely any of these injuries had anything to do with his size.  He's an unproven guy with nice upside, and a skill that cant be taught, that several teams were trying to sign. He chose to sign here for less, on a contract we can get out of easily after this year if we don't like it.  Sounds like a player willing to work and that's betting on himself.  

 

McK has absolutely proven what he is. I like his odds of beating a 400 yard season. Similar floor to mck, much higher ceiling. Can we let the dude play a game before we all decide he's trash and a dumb signing lol

[BillsFanForever19]

3 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

 

Lack of production?  He doubled his output from 2021.  How much more was he supposed to produce, triple his output from 2021?  As far as mistakes, fewer drops than Gabe and Knox.  He had more first downs than Dawson Knox on 6 fewer catches.  

 

As far as Harty goes, we're paying him a lot more than McKittrick.  Harty had one decent year, 2021, with numbers fairly similar to McKittrick's 2022 numbers.  He's not a massive upgrade right now, but I'll admit he has potential.  As far as Shakir, he only caught 50% of his targets.  He's still developing, let's hope he doesn't get the sophomore jinx.

 

And how did Isaiah's stats look compared to Cole Beasley's in any year he was the full time starting slot?

 

Isaiah was given the starting slot role to fill Cole's shoes. In 2020 Cole had 82 catches. In 2021 Cole had 82 catches. In 2022 Isiah had 42 catches.

 

That speaks to a lack of getting open.

Edited March 17, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

5M is a big price tag?  Spotrac had his market value @ 8.5M aav

 

we can cut him after the years with slightly over 1M in dead cap.  That’s not a big price tag…. Maybe it is to you, because you don’t know a lot about him and probably listened to other people say how it’s an overpay.  

 

Saints team knows him better than anyone and didn't keep him despite being thin at WR.

Saint's fans know him better than any other fans and LAUGHED at us for signing him to that amount of money.

 

The team and fans that know him best say "nay".

[RocCityRoller]

20 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/deonte-harris-player-injuries

 

While technically true, its more nuanced then that. His first trip to IR was on December 19, 2020th for a neck stinger, not exactly a recurring injury risk.

 

2019 he was ruled out for 2 games due to a hamstring. Was ruled out again for 1 game 2021 for a hammy.

 

Last year sent him to IR w/ turf toe w/ week 5 injury.  If operated on (it was) its not considered to be a major re-injury risk.

 

if you want to argue he's too small to hold up through an NFL season that's one thing, but the history is pretty far from being problematic, and unlikely any of these injuries had anything to do with his size.  He's an unproven guy with nice upside, and a skill that cant be taught, that several teams were trying to sign. He chose to sign here for less, on a contract we can get out of easily after this year if we don't like it.  Sounds like a player willing to work and that's betting on himself.  

 

McK has absolutely proven what he is. I like his odds of beating a 400 yard season. Similar floor to mck, much higher ceiling. Can we let the dude play a game before we all decide he's trash and a dumb signing lol

I agree McKenzie ended up being the answer to no questions. I like Lil Dirty, but not a player that is needed to go forward. But no reason to bag on the guy, as some have done. He was a fun WR4 when Daboll dialed up plays for him. Had a knack for finding 1st downs (30 last year). That is almost 2 per game, or one per half. He also had big time boneheaded plays and some untimely turnovers.

Would not be surprised to see him on the Giants though.

 

I was alluding to the fact the player 'formerly known as Harris' is 5'6" 170 lbs wet.

I don't think he will hold up and the contract was too rich.

 

You fleshed out why he missed games, thanks for the info.

But Harty has missed a lot of games. He will be compared to Mckenzie for the next season or two.

The fact is he did end 2 of 4 seasons on IR.

 

Not a fan of the signing, but that doesn't mean you keep McKenzie instead either.

I would have gone with a Berrios or James signing to help fill slot or WR4 duties for the same or less money.

 

If a guy can produce in a Daboll offense (James) he may produce here too...

 

That is my line of thinking.

Edited March 17, 2023 by RocCityRoller

[RocCityRoller]

21 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

And how did Isaiah's stats look compared to Cole Beasley's in any year he was the full time starting slot?

 

Isaiah was given the starting slot role to fill Cole's shoes. In 2020 Cole had 82 catches. In 2021 Cole had 82 catches. In 2022 Isiah had 42 catches.

 

That speaks to a lack of getting open.

 

This is incorrect. Crowder was supposed to be WR3 and fill the slot role.

 

When Crowder went down, McKenzie was asked to fill the role.

 

That is how forgettable Crowder was. Mckenzie was not up to the task to rise to WR3 after injury.

He also failed as KR/PR and Hines was brought in.

 

That is why McKenzie is gone.

 

Buffalo could have gone more safe at slot insurance than Harty, but swung for big play potential instead.

Edited March 17, 2023 by RocCityRoller

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

 

This is incorrect. Crowder was supposed to be WR3 and fill the slot role.

 

When Crowder went down, McKenzie was asked to fill the role.

 

That is how forgettable Crowder was. Mckenzie was not up to the task to rise to WR3 after injury.

They paid McKenzie more money last year than Crowder … I think they expected both to do the role…in the end they had to get Beasley back…

[RocCityRoller]

2 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

They paid McKenzie more money last year than Crowder … I think they expected both to do the role…in the end they had to get Beasley back…

I agree both failed in the role.

 

I disagree McKenzie was the 'expected' Bease replacement.

 

Need a WR3 and Harty is fools gold.

[Aussie Joe]

5 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

I agree both failed in the role.

 

I disagree McKenzie was the 'expected' Bease replacement.

 

Need a WR3 and Harty is fools gold.

I agree that McKenzie wasn’t the expected replacement,  but neither was Crowder… like I said .. I think they expected both to share the role …

 

Harty is WR 4 as Beane said yesterday…. Inside and outside…
 

I want them to draft Davis’s replacement this year… not a slot guy…in the meantime lists see what Shakir can offer sharing the slot with Harty

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by Aussie Joe

[Beck Water]

34 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/deonte-harris-player-injuries

 

While technically true, its more nuanced then that. His first trip to IR was on December 19, 2020th for a neck stinger, not exactly a recurring injury risk.

 

2019 he was ruled out for 2 games due to a hamstring. Was ruled out again for 1 game 2021 for a hammy.

 

Last year sent him to IR w/ turf toe w/ week 5 injury.  If operated on (it was) its not considered to be a major re-injury risk.

 

if you want to argue he's too small to hold up through an NFL season that's one thing, but the history is pretty far from being problematic, and unlikely any of these injuries had anything to do with his size.  He's an unproven guy with nice upside, and a skill that cant be taught, that several teams were trying to sign. He chose to sign here for less, on a contract we can get out of easily after this year if we don't like it.  Sounds like a player willing to work and that's betting on himself. 

 

You left out the 2021 3 game suspension for drunk driving

 

Look, obviously, the Bills aren't concerned about re-injury risk; they're paying him like a guy they expect to have available for 15-16 games.

 

But, the fact is, he hasn't seen a very high workload to date.  Let's leave out the turf toe season and just look at the season he was available.  The Saints had 3107 offensive plays in those 3 seasons.  Harty was on the field for 533 of them, 17%.  In his career, he's also missed 40% of his possible games.

 

Now maybe he'll be able to hold up and contribute if he's used more by the Bills (and his contract/incentives say they intend to give him a real shot at WR). 

 

Another perspective could look at Harty and say "he's had 4 years to make it through a full season, and for different reasons he hasn't managed yet".

 

I hope that's wrong but I understand the logic.

 

7 minutes ago, RocCityRoller said:

I agree both failed in the role.

 

I disagree McKenzie was the 'expected' Bease replacement.

 

Need a WR3 and Harty is fools gold.

 

From what Beane was saying in his presser yesterday (2 days ago? losing track) it sounded as though they expected Shakir to be the #3 and Harty to be the #4 guy.

Edited March 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

31 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

They paid McKenzie more money last year than Crowder … I think they expected both to do the role…in the end they had to get Beasley back…

 

I think they did expect the two of them to platoon in the role with McKenzie seeing more snaps against man and Crowder more snaps against zone.  It was pretty clear that Josh did not trust McKenzie to be open vs. zone At All.  (ditto for Shakir pretty much). 

 

The Bills paid McKenzie a little more but not significantly - $2M vs $2.25M I think, money that says "we aren't anointing either of you".

 

1 hour ago, LABILLBACKER said:

The fact that you even thought it has jinxed it into existence. 

 

Forgive me Father for I have Sinned

What must I do to atone?

Edited March 17, 2023 by Beck Water

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Good luck to wide receiver Isaiah McKenzie unfortunately he has hands like former Buffalo Bills tight end Rueben “Butterfingers” Gant in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[RocCityRoller]

31 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I knew it was only a matter of time before I got into the Davis debate.   I think Davis is excellent.   I never thought Davis was the 4-TD per game guy we saw in the playoffs, but I think he's an excellent #2.  Good hands (I can't explain his drop totals in 2022, but I don't think that's who he is).  Decent deep speed - not a burner, but he gets downfield.   Good connection with Allen.   I love his size.   Good red zone threat.   Would I like two #1s, like Cincy has, and a few other teams?  Sure, but I would much rather find an offensive lineman who can start in year 1 than go after that second #1 guy.   

 

One way to look at #2 is to think of it this way:  Who wants Robert Woods in his prime as the #2?   I do, and I think most everyone here does.  Davis is as complete a player, with a slightly different skill set.  

Be careful Shaw. I took it on the chin defending Davis here the other night. A lot of folks here are convinced Davis stinks. The masses are out with the pitchforks.

 

Davis is a very good WR#2. Ask the mob what WR#2 produced more yards and TDs than Davis, you get a bunch of gibberish and nonsense.

A few exceptions like Cincy that have 2-3 WR#1. (Yep Boyd could be a WR#1 on some teams).

 

Point out even D Hop himself never passed 60% catch rate his first 5 years in the league and get a bunch of silly responses.

Point out that Davis was equal to or outproduced Hopkins the past two seasons, more gibberish.

At least the D Hop crowd has quieted down a bit.

 

I think OL and WR3 is the biggest issue. Add a 'between the tackle' RB for me.

I'm as down on 'JuggerKnox' as you are.

 

A productive WR3 like Beasley goes a long way. But then again TSW wanted him gone too.

Whelp, even a reduced Beasely produced more than the McKenzie/ Crowder/Shakir experiment.

 

Of course Beasely goes and gets stupid on social media again....

 

Either way, I agree Diggs and Davis are a nice 1-2 combo.WR3 is a major issue.

Crowder was a bust. Mckenzie failed to rise up, and Harty is fools gold.

 

Whether it is WR3 or TE, someone has to work the underneath better and be productive.

We agree 100% there.