Conner McGovern to Bills

[Royale with Cheese]

10 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I'm not sure where Andy Reid entered this conversation but Andy has a history of signing bad offensive linemen, so that doesn't surprise me.

 

His terrible o-line is what got Mahomes crushed in the SB a couple years ago and cost him a ring. He also traded a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Orlando Brown who was a total disappointment and they just let him walk after only two seasons. Based on his history, I would guess that him drafting Creed was luck more than skill.

 

He probably should be using PFF more.

LOL at you saying PFF is better at evaluating OL talent than Andy Reid.

 

But PFF said that the Chiefs offensive line was just outside of the top 10.  But you said they were terrible that year.  Now I don't know what to believe.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2020-offensive-line-rankings

 

 

11. KANSAS CITY CHIEFS

Any time you can lose one of the best offensive linemen in the NFL for over half the season and keep your head above water as an offensive line, that’s not a bad result. That’s what we’ve seen from the Chiefs this season, with right tackle Mitchell Schwartz missing every game since Week 6 with a back injury. His replacement, Mike Remmers, has fared admirably in pass protection in his stead. Remmers’ pressure rate allowed of 4.4% this season would be his lowest mark at the tackle position since 2014.

The Chiefs’ offensive line can be made out to look worse than it is in pass protection because of the way Patrick Mahomes plays the position and the deeper drops he takes. In fact, a position-high 53 pressures were charged to Mahomes himself over the course of the regular season. It’s something that the Chiefs will gladly live with because of the plays that Mahomes can make and the way he avoids negative plays, but it’s something to keep in mind when evaluating the offensive line.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2021-offensive-line-rankings - Chiefs #5

https://www.pff.com/news/pro-2018-nfl-offensive-line-rankings-all-32-teams-units-after-week-17 - #13

 

 

 

[QLBillsFan]

30 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

I'm not sure where Andy Reid entered this conversation but Andy has a history of signing bad offensive linemen, so that doesn't surprise me.

 

His terrible o-line is what got Mahomes crushed in the SB a couple years ago and cost him a ring. He also traded a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Orlando Brown who was a total disappointment and they just let him walk after only two seasons. Based on his history, I would guess that him drafting Creed was luck more than skill.

 

He probably should be using PFF more.

Well actually not true. Reid has been outstanding in OL evaluation. Your point that he’s not good at it uses the SB loss to TB. Where both OT’s were injured and they had to play back ups. Lucky on Creed ? Well others teams were not smart enough to be lucky? PFF if paid by agents seems to have some flaws along with what is the player’s assignment. PFF has some value but it has some flaws as well. I’ll take SB winning Reid as a better talent evaluator on this one.

[Gunsgoodtime]

This thread has become unreadable due to the arguments about pff

[Royale with Cheese]

16 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Well actually not true. Reid has been outstanding in OL evaluation. Your point that he’s not good at it uses the SB loss to TB. Where both OT’s were injured and they had to play back ups. Lucky on Creed ? Well others teams were not smart enough to be lucky? PFF if paid by agents seems to have some flaws along with what is the player’s assignment. PFF has some value but it has some flaws as well. I’ll take SB winning Reid as a better talent evaluator on this one.

 

They were missing 3 starters because Kelechi Oseleme was on IR.

[JohnBonhamRocks]

So… Connor McGovern huh?

[Einstein]

55 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Well actually not true. Reid has been outstanding in OL evaluation. Your point that he’s not good at it uses the SB loss to TB. Where both OT’s were injured and they had to play back ups. Lucky on Creed ? Well others teams were not smart enough to be lucky? PFF if paid by agents seems to have some flaws along with what is the player’s assignment. PFF has some value but it has some flaws as well. I’ll take SB winning Reid as a better talent evaluator on this one.

 

Not just the SB loss, where he was missing both tackles who were bad enough that neither one of them ever started another game in the NFL. It's also his complete misjudgment on Orlando Brown and his overall inability to put a quality offensive line in his offense for close to a decade before the current iteration. For more than half of Reid's tenure in KC, his line averaged of 22nd in the league in adj sack rate. The reason he made that horrible trade for Brown is because he was chasing linemen to try to improve his horrible line.

 

When Mahomes got there, the line suddenly had better numbers (but were not actually better) because he is so masterful at moving around the pocket and escaping the pocket. In no universe is Reid outstanding OL evaluation.

 

Kelechi Osemele was another terrible player that never started another game in the NFL. 

 

42 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

This thread has become unreadable due to the arguments about pff

 

I agree. I'm done with the PFF stuff.

 

.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein

[BullBuchanan]

19 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

"Baseless assumption?"  You don't know the play or the check offs or the audibles.  They do not know the entire responsibility of the player.  Neither does the PFF grader which is what Kelce is saying.

 

So now its with you:

PFF > Bills

PFF > Kelce's

 

Where's your supporting evidence?  A PFF link where you don't have a subscription to isn't evidence lol.  

What do you mean "you don't know the play". Are you suggesting you can't determine the play call from watching a play?

Football x's and o's are fairly standard my dude. The responsibility of a player in a cover 4 is known. The responsibility of a guard on a sweep vs a given run fit is known. Playcalls aren't just random braindumps of brand new route concepts and responsibilities. Often times they're exact plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades and other times they are combinations of plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades.

If you pop on youtube, there's a whole industry of guys doing film breakdowns now and explaining in intricate detail playcalling concepts, play design, player responsibility and execution. The overwhelming majority of the time you can know exactly what the play is and what the responsibilities are just by watching it as long as you have enough background knowledge to know what the possibilities are. It's really not that complicated.

 

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I'm not sure where Andy Reid entered this conversation but Andy has a history of signing bad offensive linemen, so that doesn't surprise me.

 

His terrible o-line is what got Mahomes crushed in the SB a couple years ago and cost him a ring. He also traded a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Orlando Brown who was a total disappointment and they just let him walk after only two seasons. Based on his history, I would guess that him drafting Creed was luck more than skill.

 

He probably should be using PFF more.

That’s why we need to keep drafting offense of lineman
 

Even if you suck at it, eventually, the sun shines on a dogs ass even some days

[Royale with Cheese]

15 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

What do you mean "you don't know the play". Are you suggesting you can't determine the play call from watching a play?

Football x's and o's are fairly standard my dude. The responsibility of a player in a cover 4 is known. The responsibility of a guard on a sweep vs a given run fit is known. Playcalls aren't just random braindumps of brand new route concepts and responsibilities. Often times they're exact plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades and other times they are combinations of plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades.

If you pop on youtube, there's a whole industry of guys doing film breakdowns now and explaining in intricate detail playcalling concepts, play design, player responsibility and execution. The overwhelming majority of the time you can know exactly what the play is and what the responsibilities are just by watching it as long as you have enough background knowledge to know what the possibilities are. It's really not that complicated.

 

I’m not sure if I should believe you or Travis Kelce.  I don’t know who would have more direct knowledge. 

[BullBuchanan]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

I’m not sure if I should believe you or Travis Kelce.  I don’t know who would have more direct knowledge. 

I have a higher wonderlic score.

[HappyDays]

2 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I’m not sure if I should believe you or Travis Kelce.

 

Never trust a man who hangs an extra pair of sleeves over his groin.

 

[Einstein]

18 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

That’s why we need to keep drafting offense of lineman
 

Even if you suck at it, eventually, the sun shines on a dogs ass even some days

 

AMEN!

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, Einstein said:

I agree. I'm done with the PFF stuff.

I see that because you’re now using adjusted sack rate now to prove Reid is a terrible OL evaluator since PFF said he’s pretty good.

 

BTW, Kelechi Osemele was an All Pro and Pro Bowler.  He stopped playing after one season with the Chiefs because he tore BOTH knees.  That’s why he stopped playing, not because he was just terrible.

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Never trust a man who hangs an extra pair of sleeves over his groin.

 

This style will never pick up.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Motorin']

2 hours ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

This thread has become unreadable due to the arguments about pff

 

He's stout in pass pro, much better against power rushers than anyone we've had on the inside. 

 

https://youtu.be/rucXFyIRbBg

 

 

[Thurman#1]

On 3/14/2023 at 9:06 AM, BullBuchanan said:

If you watched him play and didn't come away with the knowledge that he's an average pass blocker and an awful run blocker, you didn't learn anything useful

by watching him.

 

 

Nonsense.

 

You're a good and interesting poster, I go out of my way to read your stuff, but what you've got there is an opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion ... until you start to think that anyone with a different one is simply clueless.

 

There's plenty of room for differing opinions on this guy. Don't know whether this has been posted here, but Joe Marino, for instance, watched five games and came away with a very different opinion. Which you can also disagree with, but Joe's not an idiot.

 

 

 

Joe came away with the opinion that he's an above average pass blocker, very good at absorbing power rushes. A major step up from Saffold.

 

Also that he's not as good of a run blocker. He thought that he's a positional guy, who will get in the right spot, but not by any means a road grader or a people mover. But that he's good at blocking in space and in finding and eliminating guys at the second level. 

 

Joe further thought he'd fit the Bills scheme a lot better than he had fit the Cowboys, as he'll be getting a lot of angle blocks here rather than the more straight forward power scheme the Cowboys use.

 

This is at the very least a reasonable argument from a guy who knows his stuff. Not that you have to agree with him.

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

13 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I specifically stated PFF is good for data and analytics but the player grading is for the fans.

Everything you stated from Kelly to Shanahan to Reich is about that and not player grading.

 

If a coaches grade is different from PFF grades...who is right?  Are you legitimately telling me PFF knows more about the responsibility of the player than the positional coach?  I'm letting you know, I'm sure the Bills watch their own film and Beane's Big Board is from his evaluations and not PFF's lol.

 

LOL at me not liking PFF because they say unflattering things.  PFF has been very favorable of the Bills with my favorite players like Allen, Diggs, Milano and several others.  I don't like it because of the reasons already I put down and it's incredibly inconsistent grading system.

 

Stuff like this.

 

https://arrowheadaddict.com/2022/09/12/twitter-reaction-patrick-mahomes-disrespectful-pff-grade-week-1/

 

Mahomes completed 30-of-39 pass attempts for 360 yards and five touchdowns. He accrued a 144.2 passer rating (158.3 is a “perfect passer rating”), the highest of any quarterback in Week 1 by far, and yet, somehow, PFF slotted him behind seven others.

 

And this.  This is absolute garbage below.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/why-aaron-rodgers-earned-a-slightly-negative-grade

 

And on top of that, you absolutely do not trust the Bills FO.  You constantly criticize them all the time so if Bills = PFF....why don't you constantly criticize PFF then?

 

 

 

 

"The player grading is for the fans"? Do you have some quotations stating fro coaches and FO folks saying they never use the player grading?

 

In one article I saw a while back a coach said that if their opinion on a player differs from PFF's, that's a signal for them to go back and watch some more tape to see where the disagreement comes from. That's a sign of respect.

 

As for your Mahomes article above, I don't see any problem there, it looks like Chiefs fans whining to me. Allen was rated #1 that week. Waah, wash, said theChiefs fans.  Did PFF say Mahomes was awful? Kinda bad? Average? They had him 8th in the league. The Chiefs fans are all wound up about this, calling it "disrespectful," and that's nonsense. Being graded 8th best in the league any particular week isn't disrespectful.

 

Sometimes when QBs have a good statistical grade, it's because they do a tremendous job putting throws into tiny windows, keeping plays alive with their feet, and making great decisions. Other times it can be hitting throws where guys have been schemed wide open and the OL is giving him all day. I'm certainly not going to go back to watch those games and decide, but saying a guy who had a good game only had the 8th best game isn't unreasonable at all, at least not on the face of it it's not.

 

What - specifically - is absolute garbage about that Packers article? Again, not going to go back and watch that Packers game, but from watching the highlights I agree with the specifics of the article. One thing that might be confusing is this, "No, they were expected throws with the credit going to Cobb for fighting through contact or defeating the coverage with speed to the edge. That makes these zero-graded throws: Three passes that have a massive effect on Rodgers’ statistical performance but do not increase his grade." That might seem a bit outrageous at first glance, but make a ton more sense when you understand that a zero grade for PFF does not have a bad meaning. It means you did what is expected, you did your job. Bad plays get graded negatively. I watched those three TD plays and I'd agree. Not especially good plays, just what you'd expect from any decent QB.

 

Not that I think Einstein is right here. It's pretty clear that he's doing his twisty dance to blame everything possible on Beane and McDermott. Which makes zero sense, as though far from perfect, they're overall doing an excellent job.

[Richard Noggin]

6 hours ago, BullBuchanan said:

What do you mean "you don't know the play". Are you suggesting you can't determine the play call from watching a play?

Football x's and o's are fairly standard my dude. The responsibility of a player in a cover 4 is known. The responsibility of a guard on a sweep vs a given run fit is known. Playcalls aren't just random braindumps of brand new route concepts and responsibilities. Often times they're exact plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades and other times they are combinations of plays that have been run thousands of times going back decades.

If you pop on youtube, there's a whole industry of guys doing film breakdowns now and explaining in intricate detail playcalling concepts, play design, player responsibility and execution. The overwhelming majority of the time you can know exactly what the play is and what the responsibilities are just by watching it as long as you have enough background knowledge to know what the possibilities are. It's really not that complicated.

 

 

I agree with you that generally, informed analysts can break down NFL game film with some degree of accuracy and insight. But there is danger in the proliferation of a "youtube (sic)...whole industry of guys doing film breakdowns now and explaining in intricate detail playcalling concepts, play design, player responsibility and execution." The medium encourages/rewards the projection of self-confident/certain expertise. 

 

 

Greg Cosell (a broadly respected pro), on the other hand, continually reminds Schopp and the Bulldog that there are NUANCES WE CANNOT KNOW when watching film. And this has been his credentialed day job for a long time. He will offer his best educated guesses and opinions, and be repeatedly (maybe evasively) insistent that the scheme-specific and even play-specific nuances in overall design, individual techniques, pre- and post-snap checks, calls, and reads, etc., are difficult to know for sure, especially in the cases of breakdowns and missed assignments. It's actually fascinating to explore and acknowledge these possibilities. But it won't get the same online engagement, most likely... 

[Royale with Cheese]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

"The player grading is for the fans"? Do you have some quotations stating fro coaches and FO folks saying they never use the player grading?

 

In one article I saw a while back a coach said that if their opinion on a player differs from PFF's, that's a signal for them to go back and watch some more tape to see where the disagreement comes from. That's a sign of respect.

 

As for your Mahomes article above, I don't see any problem there, it looks like Chiefs fans whining to me. Allen was rated #1 that week. Waah, wash, said theChiefs fans.  Did PFF say Mahomes was awful? Kinda bad? Average? They had him 8th in the league. The Chiefs fans are all wound up about this, calling it "disrespectful," and that's nonsense. Being graded 8th best in the league any particular week isn't disrespectful.

 

Sometimes when QBs have a good statistical grade, it's because they do a tremendous job putting throws into tiny windows, keeping plays alive with their feet, and making great decisions. Other times it can be hitting throws where guys have been schemed wide open and the OL is giving him all day. I'm certainly not going to go back to watch those games and decide, but saying a guy who had a good game only had the 8th best game isn't unreasonable at all, at least not on the face of it it's not.

 

What - specifically - is absolute garbage about that Packers article? Again, not going to go back and watch that Packers game, but from watching the highlights I agree with the specifics of the article. One thing that might be confusing is this, "No, they were expected throws with the credit going to Cobb for fighting through contact or defeating the coverage with speed to the edge. That makes these zero-graded throws: Three passes that have a massive effect on Rodgers’ statistical performance but do not increase his grade." That might seem a bit outrageous at first glance, but make a ton more sense when you understand that a zero grade for PFF does not have a bad meaning. It means you did what is expected, you did your job. Bad plays get graded negatively. I watched those three TD plays and I'd agree. Not especially good plays, just what you'd expect from any decent QB.

 

Not that I think Einstein is right here. It's pretty clear that he's doing his twisty dance to blame everything possible on Beane and McDermott. Which makes zero sense, as though far from perfect, they're overall doing an excellent job.

It’s a subjective based system in which a grader gives his opinion on whether or not they believe player did the right thing.  
 

If Aaron Rodgers 5 TD 0 INT performance is rated 23 points lower than Ryan Fitzpatrick 6 INT and 0 TD performance…it has major grading issues IMO.  
 

But yes, at least we can agree on your last paragraph!

Edited March 15, 2023 by Royale with Cheese

[Royale with Cheese]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

I agree with you that generally, informed analysts can break down NFL game film with some degree of accuracy and insight. But there is danger in the proliferation of a "youtube (sic)...whole industry of guys doing film breakdowns now and explaining in intricate detail playcalling concepts, play design, player responsibility and execution." The medium encourages/rewards the projection of self-confident/certain expertise. 

 

 

Greg Cosell (a broadly respected pro), on the other hand, continually reminds Schopp and the Bulldog that there are NUANCES WE CANNOT KNOW when watching film. And this has been his credentialed day job for a long time. He will offer his best educated guesses and opinions, and be repeatedly (maybe evasively) insistent that the scheme-specific and even play-specific nuances in overall design, individual techniques, pre- and post-snap checks, calls, and reads, etc., are difficult to know for sure, especially in the cases of breakdowns and missed assignments. It's actually fascinating to explore and acknowledge these possibilities. But it won't get the same online engagement, most likely... 

 

Cossell is on OBL a lot and I've heard him talk about this as well.  He mentioned that it's almost impossible to grade the players instinct because of the nuances.  We don't know the player saw, anticipated or other intangibles.  

 

We don't know if a blown assignment was execution or scheme based many times.  There was a game where the Bills struggled and Allen stated that the team they were playing threw looks at them the never seen before.  If a particular play gets blown up because the defense had the perfect call against us...we were outschemed in that instance but the players will get the negative grade.

 

If Allen gets pressured immediately on a blitz....do we know for sure if Allen didn't audible correctly, he called the wrong protection, or Morse called wrong protection, or Bates picked up the wrong bltzer, or Cook didn't leak out for the check down or they were just simply outschemed etc....

There are things we will never know as fans and "youtube experts".

[Einstein]

14 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I see that because you’re now using adjusted sack rate now to prove Reid is a terrible OL evaluator

 

No i’m done with it because you have a very limited knowledge of PFF, have never been there, do not know anyone who has worked there, and do not know how teams use it. You speak from a position of ignorance. Also it’s boring for other people on the forum to see two people engaging in page-long arguments.

 

And yes, Reid has always struggled with OL evaluation.