Conner McGovern to Bills

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

It might be who he was lined up next to, as Dawkins far superior than Brown and/or Quisenberry. 

 

Could be.  Though Dawkins struggled in 2020 after he caught Covid, until he was playing next to Boettger then Bates.

And I thought Brown played better next to Williams in 2020 than he did last year next to Bates.

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Could be.  Though Dawkins struggled in 2020 after he caught Covid, until he was playing next to Boettger then Bates.

And I thought Brown played better next to Williams in 2020 than he did last year next to Bates.

Back injuries are a B word for these big guys

[colin]

30 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I mean, I’m kind of speculating. I was a backup college linemen, and I had to practice power steps and pass sets on both sides of the line and the starters didn’t.
 

McGovern started at RG at PSU as a true freshmen. Moved to center for his sophomore year and back to RG as a junior. Out of the 30 something starts he had in college, about 2/3 came at RG. 
 

For Bates he started at left tackle and had a few games at left guard as a redshirt freshmen, started all the rest of his games there at LT. He started 3 games at RT as a junior. So all except 3 of his his 30 something starts came on the left side. 

Typically, I think guys should be able to switch sides pretty easily, but these guys spent every day for 3-4 years practicing the technique on one side. In my experience, College coaches usually don’t waste time having starters work other side steps. 

I don’t think it is that big of a deal since McGovern had a ton of work at LG this year, but I would probably slide Bates to the left and play McGovern on the right. His prowess and anchor on the twist game stuff will help Brown. And Bates said how comfortable he was on the left last year. Put these guys where they are most comfortable. 

 

 

if this guy is a good moving and pass blocker and plays really penalty free, i feel like that will help brown (after back surgery recovery and such) a lot.  brown looked way better his rookie year than year 2, which tells me his injury was a problem.  if he can make that next step and w conner mac beside him, we might actually have a comfortable allen in the pocket, which is game over for opposing Ds

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

 

That’s interesting which football players say that the Earth is flat

 

Wildly enough, several do.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lions-darius-slay-believes-the-earth-is-flat-just-like-sammy-watkins-kyrie-irving/amp/

[Beck Water]

19 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

The difference is that this is a guy they used a 3rd round pick on and is only 25.  Given the value of the pick, age and low AAV of the contract, he’d be at the top of their list of FA’s to keep if they thought he was a good player.  Most likely would’ve came at a better price too. Odds are, he’s very average. 

 

That's pretty faulty logic.  The Cowboys have McGovern ( a 3rd round pick) penciled in as a backup behind Zach Martin, their highly paid right guard and Tyler Smith, last year's 1st round pick.

 

Like any team that's paying their QB 12% of their cap and then a couple other guys well, the Cowboys operate on a "Stars and JAGs" model.

 

"Good backup we can't afford" behind a very promising 1st round pick and a top guard they're paying as such, is not the same as "not a good player".

 

There's also the relativity factor.  DaQuan Jones on the Redskins was a backup, behind Daron Payne on the depth chart.  He was a very good player for us last season.

 

Is he a star, No.  Is he potentially a good player, better than "very average", Yes.

 

20 hours ago, Bangarang said:

Certainly couldn’t be worse than Saffold.

 

He could, actually.  I won't type the names, but we have had LG who have been worse than Saffold in the last 5 years.

 

20 hours ago, Roundybout said:

kind of depressing lol

 

That is depressing.

 

19 hours ago, Process said:

I have serious doubts that the Bills are ready to move on from Brown at RT. So it looks like we have our starting OL for next year. 

It's impossible to be worse than Saffold, so we've upgraded. But is Dawkins - Bates - Morse - McGovern - Brown good enough? Blahh. 

Still need to draft multiple guys for the pipeline and depth. 

 

See above.  It is certainly possible to be worse than Saffold.  But I will be very disappointed if signing a backup G/C from the Cowboys is the extent of our OL investment, just as signing Saffold was pretty much the extent of our OL investment last season. 

 

Not Enough.

[Einstein]

11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Do you honestly think the Bills pay PFF for player grades?  Why pay a front office millions to evaluate talent when you can get a PFF subscription for $12.99 a month?  Why watch so much film on a player when you can just click on a player profile and read about it on PFF?

 

The Bills pay far more than $12.99 per month. Last I heard, teams pay PFF somewhere around $100k to PFF for their service.

 

Why do you think that is? So they can burn Pegula’s money and laugh at PFF’s opinion during practice?

 

Again, players can have their opinion but it doesn’t make them right. The teams who employ them, pay PFF.  I’m going to trust the 32 NFL teams who pay significant money to PFF for their data over a random player.

 

You and others don’t want to like PFF because they sometimes say unflattering things about the team and players you like.

 

But oddly enough you will read a long article by Joe Buscaglia who has way less experience than the PFF graders who are partly comprised of former NFL players, coaches and scouts.

 

Then there’s Chip Kelly, who like you railed against PFF. That is until he visited their headquarters, saw how they do it, and walked away so impressed that he ended up buying shares of the company.

 

“I think it’s impressive the work they do,” said Kubiak, head coach when the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl

 

“One of the things we asked (PFF) at the beginning of the year was always look at stacks and bunches. We always feel like stacks and bunches is important to understand how things play out. He is our stacks and bunches guru. We use PFF [Pro Football Focus] to give us a folder of stacks and bunches every week.” – Frank Reich 

 

"I don't think there's any question that they do a great job, and I think they're a valuable resource for us." - Kyle Shanahan, San Francisco 49ers head coach

 

“We attributed all three special teams return TDs in 2017 to PFF data.” – FBS Special Teams Coach

 

 

 

11 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

PFF > Bills

 

 

It would be more like PFF = Bills.

 

Since the Bills pay them for their data.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein

[Royale with Cheese]

7 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

The Bills pay far more than $12.99 per month. Last I heard, teams pay PFF somewhere around $100k to PFF for their service.

 

Why do you think that is? So they can burn Pegula’s money and laugh at PFF’s opinion during practice?

 

Again, players can have their opinion but it doesn’t make them right. The teams who employ them, pay PFF.  I’m going to trust the 32 NFL teams who pay significant money to PFF for their data over a random player.

 

You and others don’t want to like PFF because they sometimes say unflattering things about the team and players you like.

 

But oddly enough you will read a long article by Joe Buscaglia who has way less experience than the PFF graders who are partly comprised of former NFL players, coaches and scouts.

 

Then there’s Chip Kelly, who like you railed against PFF. That is until he visited their headquarters, saw how they do it, and walked away so impressed that he ended up buying shares of the company.

 

“I think it’s impressive the work they do,” said Kubiak, head coach when the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl

 

“One of the things we asked (PFF) at the beginning of the year was always look at stacks and bunches. We always feel like stacks and bunches is important to understand how things play out. He is our stacks and bunches guru. We use PFF [Pro Football Focus] to give us a folder of stacks and bunches every week.” – Frank Reich 

 

"I don't think there's any question that they do a great job, and I think they're a valuable resource for us." - Kyle Shanahan, San Francisco 49ers head coach

 

“We attributed all three special teams return TDs in 2017 to PFF data.” – FBS Special Teams Coach

 

 

 

 

It would be more like PFF = Bills.

 

Since the Bills pay them for their data.

 

I specifically stated PFF is good for data and analytics but the player grading is for the fans.

Everything you stated from Kelly to Shanahan to Reich is about that and not player grading.

 

If a coaches grade is different from PFF grades...who is right?  Are you legitimately telling me PFF knows more about the responsibility of the player than the positional coach?  I'm letting you know, I'm sure the Bills watch their own film and Beane's Big Board is from his evaluations and not PFF's lol.

 

LOL at me not liking PFF because they say unflattering things.  PFF has been very favorable of the Bills with my favorite players like Allen, Diggs, Milano and several others.  I don't like it because of the reasons already I put down and it's incredibly inconsistent grading system.

 

Stuff like this.

 

https://arrowheadaddict.com/2022/09/12/twitter-reaction-patrick-mahomes-disrespectful-pff-grade-week-1/

 

Mahomes completed 30-of-39 pass attempts for 360 yards and five touchdowns. He accrued a 144.2 passer rating (158.3 is a “perfect passer rating”), the highest of any quarterback in Week 1 by far, and yet, somehow, PFF slotted him behind seven others.

 

And this.  This is absolute garbage below.

 

https://www.pff.com/news/why-aaron-rodgers-earned-a-slightly-negative-grade

 

And on top of that, you absolutely do not trust the Bills FO.  You constantly criticize them all the time so if Bills = PFF....why don't you constantly criticize PFF then?

 

 

[Beast]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Quessenberry wasn’t that bad for a back up

 

I think people are dismissing just how hard it is to find quality offense of lineman period which is why we should keep drafting them

If what you say is true that’s it’s so hard to find them then why wouldn’t the Bills continue to dip into free agency to fill open spots with actual known commodities?

 

If it’s so hard as you are saying it seems to me that using draft capital for a position that players pan out so infrequently (otherwise it wouldn’t be so hard to find them, right?) is rather stupid.

[NickelCity]

I realize this isn't the "right" offseason for this, but this is the type of move I love early in FA. You've got a plug and play young option that can float around the line depending on who you draft or sign. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

And on top of that, you absolutely do not trust the Bills FO.  You constantly criticize them all the time so if Bills = PFF....why don't you constantly criticize PFF then?

 

Trusting an organization does not mean you like every decision they make. 

 

I trust my wife but I do not agree with every decision she makes. I trust my kids but I do not agree with every decision they make. 

 

You say NFL teams use the data and analytics but not the players grades. Where do you think the player grades are derived from!? The data and analytics!

 

You do not trust PFF because you find anecdotal evidence that their grades are wrong. But that's, again, just the opinion of the person writing that. And the interesting part is the person writing those articles watches WAY less film than PFF does. The PFF analysts watch every snap of every game all season long. They are often former coaches, players and scouts. The person judging PFF watches just their team and likely very little ALL-22 tape. That's the funny part to me. You and others criticize the grades of people who watch and know significantly more football than you do.

 

 

 

.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Beast said:

If what you say is true that’s it’s so hard to find them then why wouldn’t the Bills continue to dip into free agency to fill open spots with actual known commodities?

 

If it’s so hard as you are saying it seems to me that using draft capital for a position that players pan out so infrequently (otherwise it wouldn’t be so hard to find them, right?) is rather stupid.

Well, there’s this thing called the cap
 

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Wildly enough, several do.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/lions-darius-slay-believes-the-earth-is-flat-just-like-sammy-watkins-kyrie-irving/amp/

Thanks
It’s pretty unbelievable but it’s there

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

3 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I mean, I’m kind of speculating. I was a backup college linemen, and I had to practice power steps and pass sets on both sides of the line and the starters didn’t.
 

McGovern started at RG at PSU as a true freshmen. Moved to center for his sophomore year and back to RG as a junior. Out of the 30 something starts he had in college, about 2/3 came at RG. 
 

For Bates he started at left tackle and had a few games at left guard as a redshirt freshmen, started all the rest of his games there at LT. He started 3 games at RT as a junior. So all except 3 of his his 30 something starts came on the left side. 

Typically, I think guys should be able to switch sides pretty easily, but these guys spent every day for 3-4 years practicing the technique on one side. In my experience, College coaches usually don’t waste time having starters work other side steps. 

I don’t think it is that big of a deal since McGovern had a ton of work at LG this year, but I would probably slide Bates to the left and play McGovern on the right. His prowess and anchor on the twist game stuff will help Brown. And Bates said how comfortable he was on the left last year. Put these guys where they are most comfortable. 

 

If Bates is a starter this season I think it's a fail, no reason Bates should be our starting LG, I'm hoping McGovern is taking the place of Saffold and we will address RG here in FA or the draft, I also believe Spencer Brown needs serious competition at RT either in FA or the draft, Still a bunch of work to do imo.

[Beck Water]

2 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

The Bills pay far more than $12.99 per month. Last I heard, teams pay PFF somewhere around $100k to PFF for their service.

 

Why do you think that is? So they can burn Pegula’s money and laugh at PFF’s opinion during practice?

 

Again, players can have their opinion but it doesn’t make them right. The teams who employ them, pay PFF.  I’m going to trust the 32 NFL teams who pay significant money to PFF for their data over a random player.

 

You and others don’t want to like PFF because they sometimes say unflattering things about the team and players you like.

 

But oddly enough you will read a long article by Joe Buscaglia who has way less experience than the PFF graders who are partly comprised of former NFL players, coaches and scouts.

 

Then there’s Chip Kelly, who like you railed against PFF. That is until he visited their headquarters, saw how they do it, and walked away so impressed that he ended up buying shares of the company.

 

“I think it’s impressive the work they do,” said Kubiak, head coach when the Denver Broncos won the Super Bowl

 

“One of the things we asked (PFF) at the beginning of the year was always look at stacks and bunches. We always feel like stacks and bunches is important to understand how things play out. He is our stacks and bunches guru. We use PFF [Pro Football Focus] to give us a folder of stacks and bunches every week.” – Frank Reich 

 

"I don't think there's any question that they do a great job, and I think they're a valuable resource for us." - Kyle Shanahan, San Francisco 49ers head coach

 

“We attributed all three special teams return TDs in 2017 to PFF data.” – FBS Special Teams Coach

 

Dude, I think you are mixed up about a bunch of things.

 

PFF provides all kind of data.  Some of it is relatively raw data - what formations a team uses in different down and distance situations, what formation was used against it, success rate.  Catch % of different WR on different routes.  Coverage tendencies on ST given game situation and distance. 

 

They are very good at that data.  It is indeed impressive, and it's widely used by teams.

 

Then there are the player grades. 

Especially for OL and DL, the PFF graders are NOT primarily comprised of "former NFL players, coaches and scouts".  They are comprised of low-level grunts, many of whom have never watched football and are being introduced to it for the first time (being a UK based company).  They get some training on what to score and are then turned lose to do it.  Their scoring is reviewed by people who know more, but it's far too much weekly data for the higher level experts to review in depth

 

So, the PFF player grades are variable in how useful they are.  They can see, for example, that two receivers have run routes and end up very close to each other, which probably wasn't what the play desired - but which of them ran the correct route?  They can see that coverage broke down - but who missed the assignment?  They don't know.  It gets even worse with OL and DL play because they're guessing what the blocking assignments were on OL and what the gap assignments were on DL.  They may be educated guesses, but they're just guesses.  If you think they've got a former OLman or a former OL coach or a former DLman or a former DL coach breaking down every play based on expert knowledge of that specific team's schemes and tendencies, guess again.

 

Then you have situations where Milano graded very poorly in a game against KC - but he clearly excelled at what the Bills had asked him to do, which was spy on Mahomes and attack once he was flushed to one side.

 

Anyway, the player grades are primarily a tool designed for fantasy football and marketed to the general public. 

I would be astounded if teams based their evaluations of their own OLmen, or OLmen they sign, on PFF grades, and nothing you've quoted above provides any evidence that the ydo.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Beck Water

[MrEpsYtown]

Just now, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

If Bates is a starter this season I think it's a fail, no reason Bates should be our starting LG, I'm hoping McGovern is taking the place of Saffold and we will address RG here in FA or the draft, I also believe Spencer Brown needs serious competition at RT either in FA or the draft, Still a bunch of work to do imo.

I like Bates and I don’t think the difference between him and a Seumalo is really worth the 8 million in salary, assuming Seumalo get s like 12 million. Should they add competition? Yes. Would ai be happy if they add Seumalo and Bates becomes a high level back up? Yes. But they have committed to Bates and Brown and I think they are both starters come September. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

25 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I like Bates and I don’t think the difference between him and a Seumalo is really worth the 8 million in salary, assuming Seumalo get s like 12 million. Should they add competition? Yes. Would ai be happy if they add Seumalo and Bates becomes a high level back up? Yes. But they have committed to Bates and Brown and I think they are both starters come September. 

 

If we go into the season with Brown and Bates as starters you'll see Allen once again running for his life and quite possibly worse. This will most likely be addressed through the draft which is understandable due to the cap restraints we have.

Edited March 14, 2023 by BuffaloBillsGospel2014

[Royale with Cheese]

49 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Trusting an organization does not mean you like every decision they make. 

 

I trust my wife but I do not agree with every decision she makes. I trust my kids but I do not agree with every decision they make. 

 

You say NFL teams use the data and analytics but not the players grades. Where do you think the player grades are derived from!? The data and analytics!

 

You do not trust PFF because you find anecdotal evidence that their grades are wrong. But that's, again, just the opinion of the person writing that. And the interesting part is the person writing those articles watches WAY less film than PFF does. The PFF analysts watch every snap of every game all season long. They are often former coaches, players and scouts. The person judging PFF watches just their team and likely very little ALL-22 tape. That's the funny part to me. You and others criticize the grades of people who watch and know significantly more football than you do.

 

 

 

.

 

It's based on a guy watching a broadcast view or film and then determining if the player did what he thinks he was supposed to do.  

If PFF=Bills then there would be no reason why any team would hire a scouting staff.  They would just subscribe to PFF.

 

Hmmmmmm..........funny to me that you often criticize Beane and McDermott who know significantly more football than you. 

 

 

[Beck Water]

28 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

I like Bates and I don’t think the difference between him and a Seumalo is really worth the 8 million in salary, assuming Seumalo get s like 12 million. Should they add competition? Yes. Would ai be happy if they add Seumalo and Bates becomes a high level back up? Yes. But they have committed to Bates and Brown and I think they are both starters come September. 

 

Last season, the R side of our OL could be summed up as: Not Good Enough (actually, so could our L side but)

 

So basically, your thinking is that Beane is just moving air molecules around when he talks about protecting Allen, and there will be no real effort to improve upon the weaker side of the line?

[MrEpsYtown]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:

 

If we go into the season with Brown and Bates as starters you'll see Allen once again running for his life and quite possibly worse. This will most likely be addressed through the draft which is understandable due to the cap restraints we have.

We can agree to disagree. I think they maybe add somebody. I don’t see a massive upgrade outside the top 3-4 linemen like Johnson and Skoronski, who will be out of reach. 

1 minute ago, Beck Water said:

 

Last season, the R side of our OL could be summed up as: Not Good Enough (actually, so could our L side but)

 

So basically, your thinking is that Beane is just moving air molecules around when he talks about protecting Allen, and there will be no real effort to improve upon the weaker side of the line?

I just believe in player development and I think there is something there with those guys. 

[Royale with Cheese]

30 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Dude, I think you are mixed up about a bunch of things.

 

PFF provides all kind of data.  Some of it is relatively raw data - what formations a team uses in different down and distance situations, what formation was used against it, success rate.  Catch % of different WR on different routes.  Coverage tendencies on ST given game situation and distance. 

 

They are very good at that data.  It is indeed impressive, and it's widely used by teams.

 

Then there are the player grades. 

Especially for OL and DL, the PFF graders are NOT primarily comprised of "former NFL players, coaches and scouts".  They are comprised of low-level grunts, many of whom have never watched football and are being introduced to it for the first time (being a UK based company).  They get some training on what to score and are then turned lose to do it.  Their scoring is reviewed by people who know more, but it's far too much weekly data for the higher level experts to review in depth

 

So, the PFF player grades are variable in how useful they are.  They can see, for example, that two receivers have run routes and end up very close to each other, which probably wasn't what the play desired - but which of them ran the correct route?  They can see that coverage broke down - but who missed the assignment?  They don't know.  It gets even worse with OL and DL play because they're guessing what the blocking assignments were on OL and what the gap assignments were on DL.  They may be educated guesses, but they're just guesses.  If you think they've got a former OLman or a former OL coach or a former DLman or a former DL coach breaking down every play based on expert knowledge of that specific team's schemes and tendencies, guess again.

 

Then you have situations where Milano graded very poorly in a game against KC - but he clearly excelled at what the Bills had asked him to do, which was spy on Mahomes and attack once he was flushed to one side.

 

Anyway, the player grades are primarily a tool designed for fantasy football and marketed to the general public. 

I would be astounded if teams based their evaluations of their own OLmen, or OLmen they sign, on PFF grades, and nothing you've quoted above provides any evidence that the ydo.

 

 

 

This has been explained to him multiple times but he doesn't get it.  

 

His stance is "PFF knows more than you so can't criticize".  

 

I guess I can't criticize the plumber who didn't connect my drain pipe upstairs and lead to a leak because he knows more about plumbing than I do.

[Einstein]

12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

It's based on a guy watching a broadcast view or film and then determining if the player did what he thinks he was supposed to do.  

If PFF=Bills then there would be no reason why any team would hire a scouting staff.  They would just subscribe to PFF.

 

No one is saying its the definitive source. It's just another tool. But you want to pretend like the tool is total garbage - except its not.

 

12 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Hmmmmmm..........funny to me that you often criticize Beane and McDermott who know significantly more football than you. 

 

 

If we limited opinions on a forum to people who knew more than football coaches then there would be 0 threads and 0 posts.

 

Including from you.

 

We are all giving our opinion based on what we see. And sometimes the pro's (who know more) get it wrong. See 2000 to 2017.

 

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

His stance is "PFF knows more than you so can't criticize".  

 

I guess I can't criticize the plumber who didn't connect my drain pipe upstairs and lead to a leak because he knows more about plumbing than I do.

 

It's funny. 

 

This is EXACTLY the argument you're making about my criticism's on the Bills. They know more and therefore I shouldn't criticism them. 

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein